sft
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SFT's demise + Colin
Hello, long time no see....
Right takes a deep breath in ..............
Sft started going into administration back in early 2000 when SFT where taken to court for using a paragraph from PPSC's books after a VERY lenghy court case after court case SFT ended up with a bill of 300,000+ at this point the administrators where called in just to keep an eye on things.
At this point it was decided that SFT had to be sold, parties such as Cabair + BFC started looking interested, after negolations Cabair decided to buy SFT.
Then came Sept 11th,
=============================
EDITED by WWW.
Cheshire aka RB. If you are going to make a defamatory comment in public then be prepared to take the consequences. Comments about the financial position of a well known FTO - which were incorrect - could have led to legal action against you. I have spoken to management inside the defamed company and they will not pursue this. This time.
Be careful people - after the friendsreunited defamation case things are wide open for you to be sued.
WWW
=============================
with students cancelling there courses and suffering with huge reducation of courses being booked.. This is when the admistrators had to put SFT into liquidation becuase they still had this (above) debt hanging over there shoulders.
Colin actully put in a lot of his own money to SFT to try and save it, but the damages where to bad.
I have also been informed that the sales staff where told not to pressurise students into paying for there courses, although money had to be taken if the student insisted.
I know a lot of people are going to reply to this but please remember I really dont know much more than the above..
Good Luck Colin with your new school, maybe some day i will finaly meet ya!
Hello, long time no see....
Right takes a deep breath in ..............
Sft started going into administration back in early 2000 when SFT where taken to court for using a paragraph from PPSC's books after a VERY lenghy court case after court case SFT ended up with a bill of 300,000+ at this point the administrators where called in just to keep an eye on things.
At this point it was decided that SFT had to be sold, parties such as Cabair + BFC started looking interested, after negolations Cabair decided to buy SFT.
Then came Sept 11th,
=============================
EDITED by WWW.
Cheshire aka RB. If you are going to make a defamatory comment in public then be prepared to take the consequences. Comments about the financial position of a well known FTO - which were incorrect - could have led to legal action against you. I have spoken to management inside the defamed company and they will not pursue this. This time.
Be careful people - after the friendsreunited defamation case things are wide open for you to be sued.
WWW
=============================
with students cancelling there courses and suffering with huge reducation of courses being booked.. This is when the admistrators had to put SFT into liquidation becuase they still had this (above) debt hanging over there shoulders.
Colin actully put in a lot of his own money to SFT to try and save it, but the damages where to bad.
I have also been informed that the sales staff where told not to pressurise students into paying for there courses, although money had to be taken if the student insisted.
I know a lot of people are going to reply to this but please remember I really dont know much more than the above..
Good Luck Colin with your new school, maybe some day i will finaly meet ya!
Last edited by Wee Weasley Welshman; 2nd Jun 2002 at 13:30.
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www,
I am not sure where we are going with this one but while it is important that no one abuses pprune and the people that are involved in running it, my understanding is that flagging up the downside of fto's and their financial plight will only serve to save people like me from losing money in the long run. This latest thread about sft is just a post mortem and the above statement is i would guess has more to do with the promotion of the new fto run by the management of sft. Poor old cheshire cat does seem to get herself into a lot of scrapes, what is interesting though is that how could defunct company possibly mount any legal challenges about defamortory remarks.
Finally just to add my tuppence worth to pick up on one of her points I do recall receiving promotional material from sft regarding one of their open days and the fact if you payment money upfront you would get a substancial discount this not too long before the rug was pulled. Nobody likes to see a company go down and i think at the more i learn about sft it is quite apparent they had an excellent product backed up by very good instructors and above average results but i do feel that the caa should perhaps take a more resposible roll within the industry and ultimateley they have the powerbase.
I am not sure where we are going with this one but while it is important that no one abuses pprune and the people that are involved in running it, my understanding is that flagging up the downside of fto's and their financial plight will only serve to save people like me from losing money in the long run. This latest thread about sft is just a post mortem and the above statement is i would guess has more to do with the promotion of the new fto run by the management of sft. Poor old cheshire cat does seem to get herself into a lot of scrapes, what is interesting though is that how could defunct company possibly mount any legal challenges about defamortory remarks.
Finally just to add my tuppence worth to pick up on one of her points I do recall receiving promotional material from sft regarding one of their open days and the fact if you payment money upfront you would get a substancial discount this not too long before the rug was pulled. Nobody likes to see a company go down and i think at the more i learn about sft it is quite apparent they had an excellent product backed up by very good instructors and above average results but i do feel that the caa should perhaps take a more resposible roll within the industry and ultimateley they have the powerbase.
It was not a defunct company that was defamed.
It was a well known still trading FTO with substantial funds available to pursue a prosecution against the well known barmaid in question...
I protect the quilty, the innocent AND the naive.
WWW
It was a well known still trading FTO with substantial funds available to pursue a prosecution against the well known barmaid in question...
I protect the quilty, the innocent AND the naive.
WWW
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I've already moved this topic to administration once. Cheshire Cat, I'm not sure what your agenda is but I don't believe that it is an any way helpful or instructive. I also suggest that you make yourself aware of the legal consequences of your actions before anyone forces that awareness on you.
This is not a school playground. What you say and write has consequences which you are responsible for.
This is not a school playground. What you say and write has consequences which you are responsible for.
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www,
sorry i must BE naive i thought this thread was about a blonde and sft presumably the barmaid was thinking of some other fto.
students need to be protected whatever the outcome.
sorry i must BE naive i thought this thread was about a blonde and sft presumably the barmaid was thinking of some other fto.
students need to be protected whatever the outcome.
The - without jurisprudence - company was CABAIR.
You really really do not understand the pressue placed upon us by the law to avoid prosecutions.
It is ONLY by good stewardship that companies can be persuaded NOT to sue stupid people who make legally actionable public statements on this website. If we let ONE through they will never trust us again and writs will fly.
I cannot count the number of times I have had to remove postings about certain american schools from this forum. Over time they may have led me to believe that the companies in question are nothing more than the worst kind of exploitative Wannabe eating sharks.
But were I to let that statement stand we would lose the ability to occassionally air this view to anybody with the time and incination to read between the lines.
lines.
WWW
You really really do not understand the pressue placed upon us by the law to avoid prosecutions.
It is ONLY by good stewardship that companies can be persuaded NOT to sue stupid people who make legally actionable public statements on this website. If we let ONE through they will never trust us again and writs will fly.
I cannot count the number of times I have had to remove postings about certain american schools from this forum. Over time they may have led me to believe that the companies in question are nothing more than the worst kind of exploitative Wannabe eating sharks.
But were I to let that statement stand we would lose the ability to occassionally air this view to anybody with the time and incination to read between the lines.
lines.
WWW
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Credit checks
What concerns me in this is that I seem to remember someone doing credit checks on SFT before they went down the tubes and they came out completely clean. Surely if they were in administration that should have shown up??
SFT continued marketing to me and even phoned up to see if I wished to put a deposit on a course there just 2-3 days before they collapsed.
I am very concerned about the fact that even credit checks don't seem to provide reliable evidence of financial health. In my view it was also unscrupulous of SFT to attempt to take deposits at such a late stage. Is there any reliable method of assessing the strength of an organisation?
Desk-pilot
SFT continued marketing to me and even phoned up to see if I wished to put a deposit on a course there just 2-3 days before they collapsed.
I am very concerned about the fact that even credit checks don't seem to provide reliable evidence of financial health. In my view it was also unscrupulous of SFT to attempt to take deposits at such a late stage. Is there any reliable method of assessing the strength of an organisation?
Desk-pilot
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If you think it through the marketing department of the company cannot be told that there are problems at such a sensitive stage, or very soon everybody knows. This would lead to a premature collapse, and disaster for the purchase of SFT which was, at the time, still being negociated. Had this happened then people would be here complaining that they lost money due to the premature collapse, and the information should have remained confidential.
As it was I think had you paid your money the cheque would have been returned unpresented. Had monies been taken the company could have been seen to be trading while insolvent. Since Fanshawe Loft's acountants (who became the adimistrators) had been overseeing the company closely on behalf of the banks I'm certain they could not have allowed this to happen. If anyone knows differently they sould take it up with Fanshawe Loft, and possible their own solicitor.
If you are concerned about financial health then do not pay up-front. Either insist on an escrow account or pay as you fly. BCFT, whom I now work for, do not allow students to pay for flying upfront. Yet we are cheaper than some who insist on it. Remember you are paying the money, be a good consumer and negociate something to your satisfaction or walk away, there are plenty of us willing to accept your money on your terms
That's how competition works to your advantage.
If you think it through the marketing department of the company cannot be told that there are problems at such a sensitive stage, or very soon everybody knows. This would lead to a premature collapse, and disaster for the purchase of SFT which was, at the time, still being negociated. Had this happened then people would be here complaining that they lost money due to the premature collapse, and the information should have remained confidential.
As it was I think had you paid your money the cheque would have been returned unpresented. Had monies been taken the company could have been seen to be trading while insolvent. Since Fanshawe Loft's acountants (who became the adimistrators) had been overseeing the company closely on behalf of the banks I'm certain they could not have allowed this to happen. If anyone knows differently they sould take it up with Fanshawe Loft, and possible their own solicitor.
If you are concerned about financial health then do not pay up-front. Either insist on an escrow account or pay as you fly. BCFT, whom I now work for, do not allow students to pay for flying upfront. Yet we are cheaper than some who insist on it. Remember you are paying the money, be a good consumer and negociate something to your satisfaction or walk away, there are plenty of us willing to accept your money on your terms
That's how competition works to your advantage.
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To the moderators
Cheshire cat I think made a genuine slip of expression. I know that the company in question were irritated by some things posted on another thread, including one written by Cheshire Cat that was factually incorrect. I think it happened that she was a relatively identifiable perpetrator, so was taken aside by an employee and briefed on the true sequence of events.
For what it is worth I think that she was in the above post simply trying to set the record straight, and inadvertantly or with slight misunderstanding suggested that Cabair had experienced financial problems. Of course with recent contracts they have I believe recently started they should have sound finances - they started an operation down here in Bournemouth precisely because they are anticipating being busy up in Cranfield (and because Bournemouth is gret for training).
Cheshire cat I think made a genuine slip of expression. I know that the company in question were irritated by some things posted on another thread, including one written by Cheshire Cat that was factually incorrect. I think it happened that she was a relatively identifiable perpetrator, so was taken aside by an employee and briefed on the true sequence of events.
For what it is worth I think that she was in the above post simply trying to set the record straight, and inadvertantly or with slight misunderstanding suggested that Cabair had experienced financial problems. Of course with recent contracts they have I believe recently started they should have sound finances - they started an operation down here in Bournemouth precisely because they are anticipating being busy up in Cranfield (and because Bournemouth is gret for training).
But defamation is defamation whether it is malicious or done with good intentions.
I had to get involved talking to people.
I chose to use this occurrence to highlight how careful people must be. Particularly in the light of the FriendsReunited ruling.
I have no particular beed with Cheshire Cat per se.
WWW
I had to get involved talking to people.
I chose to use this occurrence to highlight how careful people must be. Particularly in the light of the FriendsReunited ruling.
I have no particular beed with Cheshire Cat per se.
WWW
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A flying career? I don't think so!
Not strictly on topic, I know, but I am continually amazed with some of the stuff that Cheshire Cat writes. She purports to be seeking a job in an airline eventually, but the immature attitude she displays in this thread, for example, and the abusive tone she takes towards people on this website with whom she disagrees makes me wonder whether she should be let lose in a milk float, let alone a 737!
As many have said before, the aviation world is a small place, and if you slag off enough people whilst using a pen name but with your own name available then some day your CV is likely to be on the desk of somebody who has been at the receiving end of one of these tirades or has at least been offended by reading one of them. Bang goes THAT chance!! Certainly were I in such a position (which I am not), then I would find it hard to look favourably on an application from her given the opinion I have formed since I started reading these fora.
We need all to be aware of the warnings the WWW has outlined so well, not least because of the legal issue but because you, as Wannabes, might regret some of your postings in the future. Check out the thread titled "reply's (spelling!!) to C.V's" (punctuation!) to see how many people who are responsible for sifting CVs have had some input on these fora.
As many have said before, the aviation world is a small place, and if you slag off enough people whilst using a pen name but with your own name available then some day your CV is likely to be on the desk of somebody who has been at the receiving end of one of these tirades or has at least been offended by reading one of them. Bang goes THAT chance!! Certainly were I in such a position (which I am not), then I would find it hard to look favourably on an application from her given the opinion I have formed since I started reading these fora.
We need all to be aware of the warnings the WWW has outlined so well, not least because of the legal issue but because you, as Wannabes, might regret some of your postings in the future. Check out the thread titled "reply's (spelling!!) to C.V's" (punctuation!) to see how many people who are responsible for sifting CVs have had some input on these fora.
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Hiya again,
Eyeinthesky.. I think you may have got me mixed up with someone else, I haven't taken a strong tone with anyone, I do get annoyed at what some people write about me but its only retalition.
I was strongly asked by a certain member to post this "true" story its really not my style to fauseify any of my posts.
I wasn't aware about 4 months ago that i can be taken to court for stating my opion of an FTO, this is whats got me into all this...
robthestudent who the hell are you???, your not the one who comes in and sits in the left corner and is always broke are you????
Eyeinthesky.. I think you may have got me mixed up with someone else, I haven't taken a strong tone with anyone, I do get annoyed at what some people write about me but its only retalition.
I was strongly asked by a certain member to post this "true" story its really not my style to fauseify any of my posts.
I wasn't aware about 4 months ago that i can be taken to court for stating my opion of an FTO, this is whats got me into all this...
robthestudent who the hell are you???, your not the one who comes in and sits in the left corner and is always broke are you????
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Oh, I know WWW, I have no problem with your actions. Just pointing out why CC was posting and that she was not maliscious, as in my experience she never is.
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This is only my humble opinion based on what I have read on this thread,and a little bit of assumption thrown in for good measure.
MsCCat has been 'set straight' on a situation that is quite sensative to certain people
(send clowns):
and has has innocently tried to put the record straight based solely on these facts.
(Cheshire Cat)
Ms CCat now writes what she is told and then gets accused of slating another FTO. Seems like she can't do right for doing wrong.
Maybe it's time to leave CC alone. We have all made our minds up about the original company in question based on what has happened in the past and our own personal moral standards And it is very clear that this thread is dedicated to one fto alone.
Lets not forget that this is a 'Rumor Network'
1 : talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2 : a statement or report current without known authority for its truth
3 archaic : talk or report of a notable person or event
4 : a soft low indistinct sound : MURMUR
Rumor
ps
(eyeinthesky)
many people know CC and this statement is not only unfair ,but is the most defamatory statement on this thread so far, yet no one has mentioned anything about it.
Thats life huh?
MsCCat has been 'set straight' on a situation that is quite sensative to certain people
(send clowns):
I think it happened that she was a relatively identifiable perpetrator, so was taken aside by an employee and briefed on the true sequence of events.
(Cheshire Cat)
I was strongly asked by a certain member to post this "true" story its really not my style to fauseify any of my posts.
Maybe it's time to leave CC alone. We have all made our minds up about the original company in question based on what has happened in the past and our own personal moral standards And it is very clear that this thread is dedicated to one fto alone.
Lets not forget that this is a 'Rumor Network'
1 : talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2 : a statement or report current without known authority for its truth
3 archaic : talk or report of a notable person or event
4 : a soft low indistinct sound : MURMUR
Rumor
ps
(eyeinthesky)
Not strictly on topic, I know, but I am continually amazed with some of the stuff that Cheshire Cat writes. She purports to be seeking a job in an airline eventually, but the immature attitude she displays in this thread, for example, and the abusive tone she takes towards people on this website with whom she disagrees makes me wonder whether she should be let lose in a milk float, let alone a 737!
Thats life huh?
Last edited by ImNot; 6th Jun 2002 at 01:21.
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For what it's worth.....
ImNot, you're correct, this is a "rumour" network. It's also very well known within the industry, and used by many people as a source of facts (rightly or wrongly). Personally, I tend not to post rumours (I don't know very many of them!
), but I do post my opinion from time to time, and I always try to make it clear when something is my opinion, as opposed to fact. I think it's important that, when people are posting information, they make it clear where the information comes from, and how reliable it is, and it seems CC didn't do that this time.
As for eyeinthesky's opinion of whether CC should be let lose on a milkfloat - I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek, but it does seem harsh. I've only had the pleasure of meeting CC once, but, in my opinion, she's a lovely girl who wouldn't know how to harm a fly, let alone want to (even if she hasn't turned up to any of the bashes that she said she'd turn up to since I met her!)
But CC, I think you should pay attention to what eyeinthesky says. The vast majority of PPRuNers haven't been fortunate enough to meet you, and their opinion of you is based entirely on what you post on this board. Since your identity is well known, you do need to be careful. Everyone who knows you will have no doubt that you are posting in good faith. But I'd suggest that, for the benefit of those who don't know you, you pause before pressing the "Submit" button, and read what you've written. Identify anything you've said which could be contentious, and try to make it less so - either by qualifying it (e.g. "I've heard this from a source I believe to be reliable, but I can't confirm it...") or, if necessary, by removing it.
Now, can we stop this flame-war and get on with talking about flying please?
FFF
-------------
(Edited to say that, even though she wouldn't harm anyone deliberately, she had a good go at killing myself and others with her driving and climbing skills! )
ImNot, you're correct, this is a "rumour" network. It's also very well known within the industry, and used by many people as a source of facts (rightly or wrongly). Personally, I tend not to post rumours (I don't know very many of them!
), but I do post my opinion from time to time, and I always try to make it clear when something is my opinion, as opposed to fact. I think it's important that, when people are posting information, they make it clear where the information comes from, and how reliable it is, and it seems CC didn't do that this time.As for eyeinthesky's opinion of whether CC should be let lose on a milkfloat - I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek, but it does seem harsh. I've only had the pleasure of meeting CC once, but, in my opinion, she's a lovely girl who wouldn't know how to harm a fly, let alone want to (even if she hasn't turned up to any of the bashes that she said she'd turn up to since I met her!)
But CC, I think you should pay attention to what eyeinthesky says. The vast majority of PPRuNers haven't been fortunate enough to meet you, and their opinion of you is based entirely on what you post on this board. Since your identity is well known, you do need to be careful. Everyone who knows you will have no doubt that you are posting in good faith. But I'd suggest that, for the benefit of those who don't know you, you pause before pressing the "Submit" button, and read what you've written. Identify anything you've said which could be contentious, and try to make it less so - either by qualifying it (e.g. "I've heard this from a source I believe to be reliable, but I can't confirm it...") or, if necessary, by removing it.
Now, can we stop this flame-war and get on with talking about flying please?
FFF
-------------
(Edited to say that, even though she wouldn't harm anyone deliberately, she had a good go at killing myself and others with her driving and climbing skills!
)
Last edited by FlyingForFun; 6th Jun 2002 at 08:04.
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Defamatory? I don't think so. I could if necessary produce evidence from past threads to support my opinion. I have personally been on the receiving end of a tirade from CC who suggested I was talking cr*p in response to some information I posted which was trying to help out someone else's query. The information I gave was subsequently supported by later posters.
FFF has hit the nail on the head. I have indeed never met CC (although the times I was in the BFC bar recently I did look out for her!), so my opinion is formed from what I read here. My point was that that opinion might prevent that particular individual from getting past the paper sift to discover that she is in fact a nice person. It is that which we should all bear in mind before pressing 'Submit'.
FFF has hit the nail on the head. I have indeed never met CC (although the times I was in the BFC bar recently I did look out for her!), so my opinion is formed from what I read here. My point was that that opinion might prevent that particular individual from getting past the paper sift to discover that she is in fact a nice person. It is that which we should all bear in mind before pressing 'Submit'.
Look.
I am sure Cheshire is a nice person. I don't see any malice in her posting.
I could just have quietly removed the thread and sent an email admonishment.
However, a company was defamed, they could have sued, they didn't out of goodwill, Cheshire was lucky, my ability to intervene is limited, next time we won't be so fortunate.
So I chose to make a thread out of the issue.
Hopefully it has served as a timely reminder for posters to be careful. You can usually say the thing you want to say - just in a different way. All it takes is 10 seconds thought.
WWW
I am sure Cheshire is a nice person. I don't see any malice in her posting.
I could just have quietly removed the thread and sent an email admonishment.
However, a company was defamed, they could have sued, they didn't out of goodwill, Cheshire was lucky, my ability to intervene is limited, next time we won't be so fortunate.
So I chose to make a thread out of the issue.
Hopefully it has served as a timely reminder for posters to be careful. You can usually say the thing you want to say - just in a different way. All it takes is 10 seconds thought.
WWW
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This is not a quiet, private back bar where you can gossip to your hearts content about whosoever and whatsoever you want. This is a very public place, read by many with much more to gain and lose than many of you could possibly contemplate. Notwithstanding the site's title of rumour network, you are constrained by the laws of the UK (where the site is 'published'), and probably also by the laws of the country you contribute to this site from, as to what you can and cannot say in public.
The fact that CC may be a lovely lady who wouldn't knowingly hurt anyone is not a legal defence against libel. Naivety may be endearing in some circumstances, but this isn't one of them.
Push the boundaries of what is acceptable only if you are fully aware of, and prepared to take, the legal price you may have to pay!
The fact that CC may be a lovely lady who wouldn't knowingly hurt anyone is not a legal defence against libel. Naivety may be endearing in some circumstances, but this isn't one of them.
Push the boundaries of what is acceptable only if you are fully aware of, and prepared to take, the legal price you may have to pay!
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WWW & Scroggs, you are both absolutely correct, I was being an idealist and not a realist in making my comments.
This again is just my own opinion but it does appear that CC has been manipulated and is posting for someone elses benefit and it isn't too hard for me to guess who that person would be.
Now assuming I am correct (which of course I may not be), if CC had been subjected to some sort of legal proceedings, would this other person have shared the responsibility???
This again is just my own opinion but it does appear that CC has been manipulated and is posting for someone elses benefit and it isn't too hard for me to guess who that person would be.
Now assuming I am correct (which of course I may not be), if CC had been subjected to some sort of legal proceedings, would this other person have shared the responsibility???
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eyeinthesky, there are 2 cheshire cats I am "Cheshire cat EGHH" the other is "cheshire cat", I dont remember replying to any of your posts in fact this is the first time I have seen you, maybe it was the other cheshire?.
Well FFF, i am going to the Gatbash after that comment, have even written out the cheque and leaving my humble abode today to post it myself! aren't I a good girl!.
Really looking forward to seeing you all. maybe i could locate that red top that you all seem to like???..
Beckxy.
Well FFF, i am going to the Gatbash after that comment, have even written out the cheque and leaving my humble abode today to post it myself!
aren't I a good girl!.Really looking forward to seeing you all. maybe i could locate that red top that you all seem to like???..
Beckxy.