Jet Orientation - a must?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jet Orientation - a must?
Morning folks,
Okay, having read some of the other related posts I am still none the wiser on this.
From what I know so far:
1. Just how valuable is a JOC and, more importantly, does a JOC really hold any significance given that if you or I are going to move onto jets we will be completing a type rating anyway thus rendering it rather pointless? Or does it turn out to prove invaluable in that instance?
2. If you are going to do an MCC and JOC would doing the MCC in a full motion sim negate or part negate the need to do a JOC since you will have been operating a jet and will have been 'orientated' to some degree or other in order to pass it?
3. What of the training providers who provide a JOC in a fixed base sim? Indeed can they really claim to provide true 'orientation' if they cannot simulate motion? Or is this irrelevant?
4. This is a genuine question and not intended to ignite any backlash or furry but are we as pilots sometimes programmed to try to pick up every course going in an attempt to enhance our CVs and better our prospects even if there is actually little value in that course.
On the last point I am not suggesting the JOC is of little value - I want to hear what you guys think on that. I would be interested to get some honest opinions on the above but please nothing pejorative - just relevant to the questions posed.
My situation is that I am poised to do the MCC and JOC. I already have a shed-load of hours but not multi-crew and none jet. A certain MCC provider in the Baltic region has offered me an MCC on a 737CL FFS and has suggested that a JOC would be a waste of money.
Much appreciated.
Okay, having read some of the other related posts I am still none the wiser on this.
From what I know so far:
- A JOC is not mandated by regulation
- Some jet operators specify they want applicants to have completed one whilst others do not
- As a consequence of the first there is no 'set' syllabus and as such training providers devise their own course content
- Broadly speaking, the JOC introduces the candidate to the characteristics of a jet aircraft and might focus on tendencies and techniques etc...
1. Just how valuable is a JOC and, more importantly, does a JOC really hold any significance given that if you or I are going to move onto jets we will be completing a type rating anyway thus rendering it rather pointless? Or does it turn out to prove invaluable in that instance?
2. If you are going to do an MCC and JOC would doing the MCC in a full motion sim negate or part negate the need to do a JOC since you will have been operating a jet and will have been 'orientated' to some degree or other in order to pass it?
3. What of the training providers who provide a JOC in a fixed base sim? Indeed can they really claim to provide true 'orientation' if they cannot simulate motion? Or is this irrelevant?
4. This is a genuine question and not intended to ignite any backlash or furry but are we as pilots sometimes programmed to try to pick up every course going in an attempt to enhance our CVs and better our prospects even if there is actually little value in that course.
On the last point I am not suggesting the JOC is of little value - I want to hear what you guys think on that. I would be interested to get some honest opinions on the above but please nothing pejorative - just relevant to the questions posed.
My situation is that I am poised to do the MCC and JOC. I already have a shed-load of hours but not multi-crew and none jet. A certain MCC provider in the Baltic region has offered me an MCC on a 737CL FFS and has suggested that a JOC would be a waste of money.
Much appreciated.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: NL
Age: 32
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone who did his MCC and JOC on a 737 NG fixed base sim,
In our course the MCC focussed mainly on the CRM part of things and a lot of automation was used. During the JOC it was raw data hand flying all the way. This I found to be really valuable. (But arguably this depends on the syllabi of the different training providers)
There are some Airlines, mainly UK based ones, That require a completed JOC before even considering inviting you to an interview. So if you don't have it on your CV you'll sadly get weeded out before you get a chance to show what you're made of.
My 2 cents
In our course the MCC focussed mainly on the CRM part of things and a lot of automation was used. During the JOC it was raw data hand flying all the way. This I found to be really valuable. (But arguably this depends on the syllabi of the different training providers)
There are some Airlines, mainly UK based ones, That require a completed JOC before even considering inviting you to an interview. So if you don't have it on your CV you'll sadly get weeded out before you get a chance to show what you're made of.
My 2 cents
Last edited by Nikonair; 23rd Jan 2014 at 14:35.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: EGGW
Age: 39
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I found the JOC very useful and gave me an upper hand on handling the simulator prior to the MCC, but this was how the course I was on ran. Went into more detail about handling jets and getting out of various scenarios and experiencing some of the less desireable conditions.
But as the guy above me said, a lot was focussed on the CRM and cooperation of running the flights as a crew and working under pressure in the worse scenarios of emergencies and handling the aircraft when things aren't running to plan.
It was total overkill, but I did mine on the B744 full motion, wasn't majorly more expensive but more of a treat of things to come in the future, so went for the course.
Personally was good to do both the MCC/JOC but depends on your thoughts on where you want to go and how much money you have available.
But as the guy above me said, a lot was focussed on the CRM and cooperation of running the flights as a crew and working under pressure in the worse scenarios of emergencies and handling the aircraft when things aren't running to plan.
It was total overkill, but I did mine on the B744 full motion, wasn't majorly more expensive but more of a treat of things to come in the future, so went for the course.
Personally was good to do both the MCC/JOC but depends on your thoughts on where you want to go and how much money you have available.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@StatorVane: I think a JOC would be beneficial, certainly with an extra 16 hours in the simulator I suspect your skills would improve.
Furthermore, from an HR individuals' perspective, if they are going through hundreds of CVs and your one is one of the few that has a JOC, it may be the case that they pick yours over others and you land that dream job as a result of this.
I completed two MCC/JOC courses, one was fixed-base and the other FFS - no difference to me or my colleagues and therefore if you wanted to get the cheaper option - head for fixed-base.
It is, in my opinion however, worthwhile in getting a JOC or MCC from a reputable supplier. Not all JOC courses are equal.
There is a simulator provider in Ireland that lots of people tend to use, SimTech? Heard good reviews about them, check them out.
Furthermore, from an HR individuals' perspective, if they are going through hundreds of CVs and your one is one of the few that has a JOC, it may be the case that they pick yours over others and you land that dream job as a result of this.
I completed two MCC/JOC courses, one was fixed-base and the other FFS - no difference to me or my colleagues and therefore if you wanted to get the cheaper option - head for fixed-base.
It is, in my opinion however, worthwhile in getting a JOC or MCC from a reputable supplier. Not all JOC courses are equal.
There is a simulator provider in Ireland that lots of people tend to use, SimTech? Heard good reviews about them, check them out.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Polymer Records
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SV, It all depends on what you want out of the course.
Experience of how a jet flies (either by doing it by MCC or JOC) will be valuable experience for a jet sim check. The main difference from light aircraft is the significant pitch power couple. Low altitude SID level offs and go-arounds can cause a nasty surprise for those unaware of how strong this pitch power coupling is. And that sim check for your chance at a first job is no place to be discovering surprises like that.
In terms of whether its worth doing a JOC on top of a MCC that was completed in a jet sim is a moot point. Some operators will discard your CV straight away if it doesn't have a specific JOC on it. No amount of logical argument about how your MCC was done in a jet sim will cut any mustard with them. Your CV will either tick the JOC box or not. I personally know someone who was working in an airline in another capacity and went for a First Officer job and was turned down specifically due to lack of JOC. He pleaded that he could go away and organise a JOC and be back in two weeks time with the box ticked, but they still chopped him!
However, will you get an interview at one of these airlines...? Or someone more enlightened? You pay your money (or not) and take your chances either way. Only hindsight will tell you whether you needed it.
Experience of how a jet flies (either by doing it by MCC or JOC) will be valuable experience for a jet sim check. The main difference from light aircraft is the significant pitch power couple. Low altitude SID level offs and go-arounds can cause a nasty surprise for those unaware of how strong this pitch power coupling is. And that sim check for your chance at a first job is no place to be discovering surprises like that.
In terms of whether its worth doing a JOC on top of a MCC that was completed in a jet sim is a moot point. Some operators will discard your CV straight away if it doesn't have a specific JOC on it. No amount of logical argument about how your MCC was done in a jet sim will cut any mustard with them. Your CV will either tick the JOC box or not. I personally know someone who was working in an airline in another capacity and went for a First Officer job and was turned down specifically due to lack of JOC. He pleaded that he could go away and organise a JOC and be back in two weeks time with the box ticked, but they still chopped him!
However, will you get an interview at one of these airlines...? Or someone more enlightened? You pay your money (or not) and take your chances either way. Only hindsight will tell you whether you needed it.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 27
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given that there is no set syllabus for JOC (unlike MCC), and the content varies hugely between providers, it is quite surprising how many airlines are now stating that they will only consider candidates who have completed a JOC.
It seems that JOC is becoming a must-have for your CV, even if the particular airline you're applying to doesn't make it a requirement.
As there is a lot of autopilot use during MCC, whereas the JOC will more likely focus on hand flying and jet handling, it is possible that airlines realise that students with a JOC qualification will have an easier path through a type rating course.
It seems that JOC is becoming a must-have for your CV, even if the particular airline you're applying to doesn't make it a requirement.
As there is a lot of autopilot use during MCC, whereas the JOC will more likely focus on hand flying and jet handling, it is possible that airlines realise that students with a JOC qualification will have an easier path through a type rating course.
Educated Hillbilly
Given the variation in JOC course content also be aware that some operators will specifically ask for a JOC that contains XX amount of hours. So not all JOC courses are acceptable to all operators. I am reasonably certain that Jet2 require a JOC that had at least 16 hours in the syllabus, where as Wizzair would accept any JOC.
Still quite alarmed that Wizzair expected me to have a JOC to apply even though I had two heavy turboprop ratings on my licence.
Still quite alarmed that Wizzair expected me to have a JOC to apply even though I had two heavy turboprop ratings on my licence.
