Concerned parent... mortgage sized training fees
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Any reputable school should only take cash on delivery, small staged payments up-front or shove the cash in escrow.
Taking cash when you know it is only going to fill a hole that is already in your P&L is trading in insolvency; in most countries there's a law against that.
Taking cash when you know it is only going to fill a hole that is already in your P&L is trading in insolvency; in most countries there's a law against that.
For reasons that are well-documented and debated on this forum, the pay on offer to the vast majority of airline pilots is not so much 'on the wane' as in 'free-fall'. Why? Newly qualified commercial pilots are ten-a-penny and after spending £100,000 on training these eager people are at the mercy of the capitalist free-market.
Whilst there are a few desperate people willing to 'pay to fly' to gain sufficient experience, there will be a far greater number of perfectly nice and adequately talented folk who will have no option for employment but to accept a position with low pay. After all, some form of income is needed to repay the loans.
Only a handful of candidates will enter well-paying airlines as cadets. Note: most of these opportunities require aptitude testing and selection interviews before the huge expenditure on training fees. As far as I know, provided you complete the training to a satisfactory standard the job is guaranteed. Not always.
For the vast majority who complete the commercial pilot training (and let's face it, the CPL/IR is within the ability of a lot of people) before they receive a job offer, if any, a word or two of warning: it is alleged that one major European airline is now offering newly qualified commercial pilots a basic salary of £22,000 plus duty pay (say another £12,000) for a return on £100-120,000 training costs.
In summary, you normally have to be bright, articulate and well-educated to apply for the jobs worth having and very lucky to be successful. If my son wants to follow me into the profession I'll only support him if he goes through this route because any other flying jobs (including my own) are already under-paid and things will only get worse.
Whilst there are a few desperate people willing to 'pay to fly' to gain sufficient experience, there will be a far greater number of perfectly nice and adequately talented folk who will have no option for employment but to accept a position with low pay. After all, some form of income is needed to repay the loans.
Only a handful of candidates will enter well-paying airlines as cadets. Note: most of these opportunities require aptitude testing and selection interviews before the huge expenditure on training fees. As far as I know, provided you complete the training to a satisfactory standard the job is guaranteed. Not always.
For the vast majority who complete the commercial pilot training (and let's face it, the CPL/IR is within the ability of a lot of people) before they receive a job offer, if any, a word or two of warning: it is alleged that one major European airline is now offering newly qualified commercial pilots a basic salary of £22,000 plus duty pay (say another £12,000) for a return on £100-120,000 training costs.
In summary, you normally have to be bright, articulate and well-educated to apply for the jobs worth having and very lucky to be successful. If my son wants to follow me into the profession I'll only support him if he goes through this route because any other flying jobs (including my own) are already under-paid and things will only get worse.
Last edited by Mikehotel152; 25th Oct 2013 at 06:12.
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It is "alleged" that one major European airline is paying £22,000 plus £12,000 flight pay for newly qualified CPL's? And you're warning people OFF applying for that? 
I'd say if you are a fresh CPL and you can get that salary then grab onto that job like a starfish to a rock and never let it go because you are very very lucky indeed. Haven't you been reading the threads about the CTC flexi crew guys earning a few hundred a month if they're lucky, and the Vueling guys sleeping in their cars at the Barcelona runway threshold for weeks on end, because they can't afford to rent a house?
I spent 5 years as a flying instructor lucky to clear £1,000 a month in summer and half that in winter ... my first turboprop paid £19,000 I think, even when I joined Easyjet under the old TRSS scheme the salary was somewhere in the mid £30s depending on flight pay ... and I had already 10 years and a few thousand hours at that stage. Salary is much lower than that now, under these horrible zero hours contracts that all new guys have to accept.
Nothing is new under the sun, when it comes to low pay for starting positions in aviation. All that's changed is the low pay cancer has now crept into big jets like B737s and A320s, where it was once confined to crappy little bug smashers.
I'd say if you are a fresh CPL and you can get that salary then grab onto that job like a starfish to a rock and never let it go because you are very very lucky indeed. Haven't you been reading the threads about the CTC flexi crew guys earning a few hundred a month if they're lucky, and the Vueling guys sleeping in their cars at the Barcelona runway threshold for weeks on end, because they can't afford to rent a house?
I spent 5 years as a flying instructor lucky to clear £1,000 a month in summer and half that in winter ... my first turboprop paid £19,000 I think, even when I joined Easyjet under the old TRSS scheme the salary was somewhere in the mid £30s depending on flight pay ... and I had already 10 years and a few thousand hours at that stage. Salary is much lower than that now, under these horrible zero hours contracts that all new guys have to accept.
Nothing is new under the sun, when it comes to low pay for starting positions in aviation. All that's changed is the low pay cancer has now crept into big jets like B737s and A320s, where it was once confined to crappy little bug smashers.
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There is a school of thought, which I subscribe to.
You need a licence to be eligible to be considered for a position. Unless you are extremely "bright" or connected, as mentioned above. In this climate, a lot of people are not going to be trained that probably would have, because it is too risky. No jobs.
If things turn for the better and the job market picks up, there will be a shortage of pilots. Boom and bust. It takes about 3 years on average from 0 to frozen and IR. Yes it's a gamble. Aren't a lot of things in life??
"Intelligence" A good education is not necessarily an indication of high intelligence. One is born with intelligence. Anyone with an ounce of smarts, wouldn't be near aviation in the first instance. Not today.
You need a licence to be eligible to be considered for a position. Unless you are extremely "bright" or connected, as mentioned above. In this climate, a lot of people are not going to be trained that probably would have, because it is too risky. No jobs.
If things turn for the better and the job market picks up, there will be a shortage of pilots. Boom and bust. It takes about 3 years on average from 0 to frozen and IR. Yes it's a gamble. Aren't a lot of things in life??
"Intelligence" A good education is not necessarily an indication of high intelligence. One is born with intelligence. Anyone with an ounce of smarts, wouldn't be near aviation in the first instance. Not today.
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There would need to be an addition of over 600 airframes to the European market alone to even make a dent in the current supply of CPL/IR's sub 300 hours that are available.
A 1000 new airframes you might start getting a issue with running out of FO's But you would have run out of Captains and type rating capacity before that.
So even if there is a boom its not going to have that much affect.
And 3 years is a bit long 12-14 months is more than do able for modular.
A 1000 new airframes you might start getting a issue with running out of FO's But you would have run out of Captains and type rating capacity before that.
So even if there is a boom its not going to have that much affect.
And 3 years is a bit long 12-14 months is more than do able for modular.
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http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Licens...March_2012.pdf
That's the numbers for 2011-2012 for the UK only. 1357 CPL's issued. Which is up by nearly 200 from the previous year.
You can't really read anything into the Type ratings issued because its for all CPL's out there and not just first type ratings.
They used to publish an age and sex but stopped that from 2008.
You can't get anything else out of the CAA even with FOI because they claim its commercially sensitive.
That's the numbers for 2011-2012 for the UK only. 1357 CPL's issued. Which is up by nearly 200 from the previous year.
You can't really read anything into the Type ratings issued because its for all CPL's out there and not just first type ratings.
They used to publish an age and sex but stopped that from 2008.
You can't get anything else out of the CAA even with FOI because they claim its commercially sensitive.
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Things are real rough out there.
This site below, tends to re enforce your claim.
This is Afghanistan the advert refers. Not London, Paris or NY, for e.g. Wippe!!!
AviationJobs.Me Flight Crew
This site below, tends to re enforce your claim.
This is Afghanistan the advert refers. Not London, Paris or NY, for e.g. Wippe!!!
AviationJobs.Me Flight Crew
Last edited by Don_Apron; 26th Oct 2013 at 10:24.
It is "alleged" that one major European airline is paying £22,000 plus £12,000 flight pay for newly qualified CPL's? And you're warning people OFF applying for that?
The point is that pay for flying a medium-sized airliner is low and is getting lower; which is highly relevant to the question raised in the original post and subsequent discussion.
Commercial aviation involves extremely expensive training, low chances of getting any job, and even a job that you regard as so fantastic that it should be grabbed like the proverbial starfish to a rock is not affording fair reward for the job performed.
You're absolutely right Don: A good education is not evidence of intelligence, but it is evidence of hard work and application, and when coupled with a little intelligence it is what gets you into the cadet schemes for the likes of BA. Believe me, when employers touting a handful of jobs to thousands of applicants have a choice between equally intelligent candidates, yet only one is articulate and well-educated, we all know who will get the job. That applies to all industries - except football perhaps...
Last edited by Mikehotel152; 26th Oct 2013 at 19:09.
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Good point.
What a great shame the self improver route was taken from the youngsters of today, when the JAR's came into force. Namely abinio instructing.
Unless you come from a privileged and a wealthy background, getting into professional civilian aviation is almost impossible to achieve. Is this the way to go, when selecting people for their abilities they were born with, right across the board? I say no. far from it. You mention football. They nurture God given talent, from a very early age.
I know a person, who was bought up in a very poor family, left school at 15, soloed when he was 16, PPL at 17, CPL and 1st job at 19. Full ATPL 23. Now that to me is a sign of dedication and hard work, against all the odds. Of course this would never be allowed to happen today.
At the inception of the JAA, at least one potential member state wanted a University degree mandatory before one was able to be the holder of a senior professional license. Fortunately the UK CAA and others, slapped them down, for now.
When I started, a degree was looked upon as not all that helpful and was a contributory factor in being a late starter.I.E., Low hours commiserate with age. The best time to learn the trade is when we are young. Younger the better.
What a great shame the self improver route was taken from the youngsters of today, when the JAR's came into force. Namely abinio instructing.
Unless you come from a privileged and a wealthy background, getting into professional civilian aviation is almost impossible to achieve. Is this the way to go, when selecting people for their abilities they were born with, right across the board? I say no. far from it. You mention football. They nurture God given talent, from a very early age.
I know a person, who was bought up in a very poor family, left school at 15, soloed when he was 16, PPL at 17, CPL and 1st job at 19. Full ATPL 23. Now that to me is a sign of dedication and hard work, against all the odds. Of course this would never be allowed to happen today.
At the inception of the JAA, at least one potential member state wanted a University degree mandatory before one was able to be the holder of a senior professional license. Fortunately the UK CAA and others, slapped them down, for now.
When I started, a degree was looked upon as not all that helpful and was a contributory factor in being a late starter.I.E., Low hours commiserate with age. The best time to learn the trade is when we are young. Younger the better.
Last edited by Don_Apron; 26th Oct 2013 at 20:28.
If it's not a daft question, what's the difference - apart from £1500 to a DL TK provider - between modular now and the old "self improver" route? Paid instruction on a PPL is legal again, albeit that CPL TK has to be done before FI.
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 26th Oct 2013 at 20:32.
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Very impressive letters after your name Genghis! Hard to compete with that.I do have marriage X 2. That's about it. 
As for your Q. not sure.
As for your Q. not sure.
Last edited by Don_Apron; 26th Oct 2013 at 20:50.
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your right G. Its just rebranded.
But the traditional jobs which were "self improver" jobs are now getting loads of integrated trained applicants as well.
8 years ago you never saw an oxford/FTE CV on a small TP's airline Chief Pilot's desk. Now there's hundreds of them.
But the traditional jobs which were "self improver" jobs are now getting loads of integrated trained applicants as well.
8 years ago you never saw an oxford/FTE CV on a small TP's airline Chief Pilot's desk. Now there's hundreds of them.
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The problem isn't the old self improver route disappearing, it's the FI-twin-TP-Jet route disappearing.
The days of a local TP airline are far gone - with only a handful now.
Equally, airlines are happy to take huge volumes of new cadets into the RHS of a jet, whereas once this was an exception.
It is only now the dust has settled on the lo-co boom and financial recession, that we are seeing the reality of pilot recruitment and T&Cs. As those recruited via CTC 10 years ago progress up the ranks, this trend will continue.
There was a period pre 2007 when people were moving quickly out of FI jobs, but now if your first job after training isn't a jet job, you've got an uphill struggle.
The days of a local TP airline are far gone - with only a handful now.
Equally, airlines are happy to take huge volumes of new cadets into the RHS of a jet, whereas once this was an exception.
It is only now the dust has settled on the lo-co boom and financial recession, that we are seeing the reality of pilot recruitment and T&Cs. As those recruited via CTC 10 years ago progress up the ranks, this trend will continue.
There was a period pre 2007 when people were moving quickly out of FI jobs, but now if your first job after training isn't a jet job, you've got an uphill struggle.
