Hour building (Merged 2013)

[MatteoLIPH]

hello, looking for your experience about the best place to make hour building in 1month on august 2013. I heard about places that are cheaper than others (ormond, long beach..)but somebody had problems regarding availability of airplanes, prices shonwn and then once there they lift up..i can t waste time due to my work so i need some place that you suggest!

thank you

[Live your dream]

I am in the same situation as you, I will probably go this summer. The best flight school I have found is Florida-Flyers.

If you are looking for someone to fly with, let me know.

Cheers!

[MatteoLIPH]

i will have a look on this..! found air america that seems good but looking for some feedback! then chandler, ncd, long beach..i don't know which one i should consider better than the others..

[Live your dream]

All I have heard about them is good, no problems at all! I will go there if I do not find another better school, although there is a problem due to the weather in summer.

[MatteoLIPH]

i guess that for example california would be better during summer..don t know..anyone can help us..?

[Hitbacker]

Depends on the aircraft..

I had one for Wichita-LA-Wichita (Cessna 172 with Garmin 430, 100 $ wet), put 40 hrs in her in about 8 days and they were quite happy to help me out.

Prairie Air Service has a 152 at - last info I have - 80 $ per hour wet, if it is not too busy in basic training (it usually isn't) that might be an option as well. It must not always be Arizona, Florida or California. Go down to the Gulf Coast or fly x/c elsewhere, there are plenty of beautiful small airports. Personal pick up at the airport at no extra charge, some checkout and familiarization, some good hints and off you go. Enjoy! Or save even more money by finding a companion stateside that will go hourbuilding with you, you go under the hood, he gets safety pilot credit with the FAA regulation (and since you have the control of the aircraft, he only the eyes, you can split the cost 50-50.

[BigGrecian]

Or save even more money by finding a companion stateside that will go hourbuilding with you, you go under the hood, he gets safety pilot credit with the FAA regulation (and since you have the control of the aircraft, he only the eyes, you can split the cost 50-50.

The flight time you refer to is not loggable under EASA regulations.

You are referring to a rule for FAR 91.119 which is for FAA licesning.

Don't confuse the two.

Logging of Flight Hours gained in the USA

Some flight hour recording practices allowable in the USA do not comply with
European and UK requirements. In particular:
• 2 pilots flying together in a single pilot aircraft both claiming P1 hours;
• One pilot accompanying another on newsgathering or traffic control flights and
claiming P1/PIC when they have not acted as Captain or signed for the aircraft.

Flying hours of this nature cannot be credited towards the requirements for Part-FCL or UK Licences.

I know pilots who have had applications rejected trying to claim such hours.

[MatteoLIPH]

so if i have a jaa ppl and i convert it to faa ppl for 1month then i come back to italy with my 90hours of buikding time and somebody can tell me that hours are not valid because i flew under faa regulations? how can my authories declare that i ve done those hours shared with somebody else..?

[BigGrecian]

They are valid as long as you don't do what HitBacker says regarding the hood.

Get the school to stamp your logbook - that helps too!

[Live your dream]

What is not allowed here in Europe are those hours as shared time, only PIC hours are valid. Although there are lots of people who have done Shared Time and with some tricks their hours have been accepted.

[MatteoLIPH]

i guess that the only things you need to do is to have a validation from the school and not to write on your logbook that you ve done those hours shared..isn't it? looking for somebody who has done in this way..! if you write hours as pic and yo do not add anything else how can the authorities know if you were solo or not..?

[zondaracer]

Under European rules, there is only 1 PIC. Under FAA rules, two people can log PIC technically under certain circumstances.

Your hours are valid depending on which rules you are applying. If you have two people flying and one guy using the view limiting device, then your hours are valid under FAA rules, but if you try to apply them towards a JAA license or JAA job, only one person in that operation can count those hours. Makes sense?

[zondaracer]

i guess that the only things you need to do is to have a validation from the school and not to write on your logbook that you ve done those hours shared..isn't it? looking for somebody who has done in this way..! if you write hours as pic and yo do not add anything else how can the authorities know if you were solo or not..?

It is called integrity. You either choose to have integrity or choose not to. If you don't have integrity, you might get away with it, but that is not the kind of person I want to fly with. I know some people who have their own "interpretation" of the regulations and have used "tricks" to make the time count, but honestly, I don't agree.

Also, under FAA rules, part 61.51 says you must log:

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by § 91.109 of this chapter.

so if you don't write the name of the safety pilot, then it is a violation of the regulation.

Of course if you want to just log the time hoping that the "authorities not know if you were solo/PIC," how is that different then just making up fake hours in your logbook?

There is a well defined line between legal and not legal. It is up to you to choose which side you will stay on. I know what kind of pilot I would rather have flying along side me. Don't be such a cheapskate, fork out the money necessary to log your time legally and properly, have some integrity, and when in doubt, log conservatively.

[MatteoLIPH]

it is not my intention to fly with someone else..i cannot waste money and time if authorities here in italy will not accept logged hours so i need to know how it really has to be done..as i newbie i was asking and thinking about this hood solution as it seems to be interesting thinking about money and experience..i think that flying with someone else can help more than flying alone. and also i read about schools that offer this type of solution with no problems..maybe they know how to validate hours with no problems for european hour builders..don t know! i thank anyone who would help with thei experiences in the usa..

[Live your dream]

As I said before, people who has made theirs hours as shared time had to use some tricks to cheat authorities. But they have got it. Probably the school has the answer.
I think fly with someone else is good if you want to save costs regarding accommodation, food, rent a car,etc...

[BigGrecian]

! i thank anyone who would help with thei experiences in the usa..

We have help you and we have told you it's not allowed....or are you going to keep asking until someone gives you the answer you want?

[zondaracer]

maybe they know how to validate hours with no problems for european hour builders..

When I first started my training, I did not know that I would end up in Europe. I logged all my hours according to the FAA regulations. Then, later on, I realized I had the opportunity to live in Europe. When I got to Europe, I found out that a lot of my PIC time did not count as PIC time under European rules. I had to go back through my logbook and addup all my hours again according to European rules. It took me about two days. Not only that, what seemed like a lot of PIC hours under FAA rules come out to barely having enough PIC hours under JAA rules to qualify for a CPL conversion. It is a good thing that I did not do the safety pilot trick at all during my hour building or I would have been given a rude awakening.

Any European school you go to will not find some "trick" to count your hours. They WILL be able to tell you which hours are valid and which are not.

Like BigGrecian said, you already have your answer in the previous posts.

[Hitbacker]

Thanks for the correction, Zondaracer and Grecian

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804Jan2013.pdf

Found it, and actually have not done it myself - thanks for pointing it out!

The thought occurred that if the PIC is signing off on the aircraft and him being the sole manipulator of the controls, the stateside guy would get his advantage out of his local regulation and you still are PIC. Now, trick question: There was a flight that was legal in a SEP in the States, an accident occurs, who is PIC? By CAA account, do they toss a coin? Or is the safety pilot PIC for air-to-air collision, while the guy flying would be responsible e.g. for an empty tank?

The interpretation of the CAA does not convince me from a legal point of view (and since not two EASA-country flyboys share the cockpit) - but why risk arguing with them.

As for the practical value: Sharing the cockpit under the hood is MCC at its earliest and best, but obviously this is only about legal logging of flight time. My 40 hrs of solo flying from Wichita to LA and back taught me a lot, so there's merit to both schools of thought. Anyhow, commercial (under part 61) in the States is 250 hrs vs. EASA land is 200. So that evens it out ;-).

[zondaracer]

There was a flight that was legal in a SEP in the States, an accident occurs, who is PIC?

Depends who has a better lawyer. In reality, they would look at who was assuming PIC before the flight, OR who signed out for the aircraft, who was manipulating the controls, who paid for the rental (who the owner was), which name was on the flight plan if filed, etc...

Typically though, the pilot under the hood can log PIC the entire flight and the safety pilot can only log flight time while the other pilot is under the hood during VMC conditions. Once the hood comes off or once the aircraft is in IMC conditions, the safety pilot is no longer a required crew member and can no longer log the time.

[MatteoLIPH]

understood that the trick is not allowed and i ll search for a school that will assure only solo flights. with "i thank anybody who will help me" i was referring to their experiences with usa flight schools in order to choose the best way..i wrote to many schools and prices are more or less the same but i can t decide without the help of somebody who went there and made hour building..in this sense experience..! i would like to know which i have to avoid for your bad experiences..thanks