Hour building (Merged 2013)

[selfin]

... the PIC is signing off on the aircraft and [he is] the sole manipulator of the controls ... [and the] flight ... was legal in a SEP in the States, an accident occurs, who is PIC?

The safety pilot required during simulated instrument flying under Part 91, done in accordance with the instrument flight rules, must be the pilot in command unless the other pilot holds a valid and appropriate instrument rating, in which case the safety pilot may still be the pilot in command if his own licence and its ratings are valid and appropriate, subject to his agreeing to the role with the other pilot.

If the simulated instrument flying is done in accordance with the visual flight rules then either pilot may elect to be the pilot in command.

If either operation is categorised as an instructional flight then the person on board being a certificated flight instructor will be the pilot in command. If both pilots are certificated flight instructors then the position of pilot in command must be decided upon by them.

Additionally the pilot possessing the higher level of pilot certificate may be held jointly liable for a breach of the FARs caused by the nominated pilot in command. See NTSB Order No. EA-4537 (1997). The pilot in command is responsible despite him neither operating the controls nor directing the flight.

These rules and precedents are specific to the jurisdiction of the United States. They are covered in greater detail, with the relevant citations, by Speciale & Venhuizen's article "The Pilot in Command and the FARS: The Buck Stops Here (Almost Always)," 83 North Dakota Law Review 817.

The interpretation of the CAA does not convince me from a legal point of view (and since not two EASA-country flyboys share the cockpit) - but why risk arguing with them.

Let's have a look at a particular sort of flight regulated by US rules.

Take the example of two pilots: Pilot P and Pilot S. Both are US-certificated private pilots with valid SEP land ratings and embark on a private flight in a US-registered aeroplane conducting the operation under Part 91 rules in US airspace. Pilot P wishes to do simulated instrument flying and Pilot S offers to act as the safety pilot. Neither pilot holds an instrument rating and therefore the flight will be done in visual met. conditions under the visual flight rules. We'll assume Pilot S does not manipulate the controls during the flight. There are now two ways these pilots can arrange their roles.

Scenario 1: Pilot P as pilot in command.

Pilot P as the sole manipulator of the controls logs the flight as PIC time pursuant to 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i).

Pilot S is a required flight crew member while Pilot P operates under simulated instrument flight conditions, 14 CFR 91.109(c). Pilot S logs, as SIC time pursuant to 14 CFR 61.51(f)(2), nothing except that portion of the flight during which he acted as a required safety pilot.

Scenario 2: Pilot S as pilot in command.

As in scenario 1, pilot P as the sole manipulator of the controls logs the flight as PIC time.

Pilot S is acting as the pilot in command during an operation requiring two pilots so logs the flight as PIC time also compliments of 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(iii).

See FAA Office of Chief Counsel's legal interpretations to Louis Glenn (2009) & Beaty (2013), et ors.

The EASA position is governed by Part-FCL:

FCL.050 Recording of flight time

The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.

The UK has established the form and manner it accepts in CAP 804. For EASA Part-FCL purposes, specifically when the UK CAA is the competent authority, Pilot P can log PIC time under only scenario 1 and Pilot S only under scenario 2.

Nevertheless the Acceptable Means of Compliance & Guidance Material [link] to Part-FCL uses language similar to that found in 14 CFR 61.51(f)(2). It states:

AMC1 to FCL.050

(b)(2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;

CAP 804 lifts this paragraph straight out of the AMC. There may therefore, for whatever it's worth, be a basis for SIC/co-pilot time to be logged for EASA/UK purposes.

[BigGrecian]

on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft

Agreed - but it wouldn't count towards any licence issue requirement which is what the CAA are stating.

[MatteoLIPH]

Thanks a lot for your replies i thank for fast and exaustive explanations Now i wrote to those schools and i would like to know if anybody in this forum went there:

AIR AMERICA
CHANDLER
EASA
FLORIDA FLYERS
LONG BEACH
SKYEAGLE

Prices are more or less the same, maybe ormond beach and air america are cheaper, but i cannot decide. I have 30 days at maximum, i will be free in august. Anybody went on one of those and would be so gentle to wrote his/her experience?? Of course if you recommend any other school i'll be extremely happy! In this way i'll be able to select...

Thank you

[selfin]

Agreed - but it wouldn't count towards any licence issue requirement which is what the CAA are stating.

The UK CAA has clearly stated it does not recognise two pilots simultaneously logging PIC time as in scenario 2 above.

Returning to the AMC (unmodified by CAP804):

... the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted

Since US Part 91 regulations require more than one pilot during simulated instrument flight it seems reasonable that the safey pilot in scenario 1, being a required pilot, is entitled under EASA rules to log the appropriate flight portion as co-pilot time.

The EASA Aircrew Regulation requires candidates to have "completed 150 hours flight time" prior to commencing a modular course for the CPL(A) and to have completed 200 hours flight time before licence issuance. It appears the safety pilot in scenario 1 may count his co-pilot time towards those EASA licences and rating requiring some number of hours of "flight time."

[wild goose]

Can anyone advise where one can get a quote for a 100 hr block of "dry" hours?
Everyone seems to be quoting wet...
The idea is to go flying all over the US - and therefore I need dry.

[zondaracer]

Many places will reimburse you for the fuel up to the cost of the local fuel rate. You would be hard pressed to find a place to quote a dry rate.

[BigGrecian]

Can anyone advise where one can get a quote for a 100 hr block of "dry" hours?

Pilots Paradise | USA Flying Holidays seems to get good write ups.

[selfin]

Originally Posted by BigGrecian

Pilots Paradise | USA Flying Holidays seems to get good write ups.

I don't suppose you work for the same company which employs Stephen Fisher?

[zerotohero]

Its been a good few years since I was there now so someone else will be better than me to help out I recon but that does sound cheap for a rent with fuel, having said that if you can find a private owner for a block rental you could get that sort of figure I guess

might be worth calling some flight schools and airfields and telling the guys on the front desk what your after as their sure to know of people with aircraft willing to do this.

[Live your dream]

The only flight school I have heard about is Florida-Flyers, I will probably go there in summer. The worst, I think, is the weather in summer. If someone knows another good flight school, please let us know.

[keogh90]

Hour building in Florida

Hay im an irish student pilot, will be in florida this summer, wondering if any like-minded young folk from Ireland or elsewhere will be there and any tips?

[keogh90]

Hour builder from Ireland

Hay im heading out there for three months on J1, have looked at similar schools, daytona beach and orlando look good places, give us a shout if you want to compare notes, student pilot, 56 hours.

[JQKA]

Florida Flyers European Us Flight School

Live your dream,
I don't know where you heard about that, cause is one of the less mentioned school, but you are RIGHT!
The enviroment is perfect for all your needs!
I Suggest this School to everybody.
Please if anybody is going there , let me know, as i want to leave a message to be forwarded to the owner of the Flight school.
Thanks

[JQKA]

Matteo

Is not just matter of money, but everything in floryda flyers school is good for us (as pilot).
You are free to do what ever you want and for time limited is the best option!! Time building is perfect there! and so the location
good School

[go around flaps15]

Hour Building San Diego

I did my hour building with a few friends in San Diego nearly 6 years ago now. Went to Anglo American which is situated on Gillespie Airfield. We flew to Vegas, Big Bear, Catalina Island, Palm Springs and loads of other little trips in between.

Good school, great weather, and decent aircraft at decent rates. First time I ever used an autopilot(a very basic one) was on a Cessna 182 N21019.

Can still remember the reg clear as mud.

If that's not Nostalgia I don't know what is.

Would recommend!