CPL/IR licence

[future-pilot]

I would like to know if on your CPL/IR licence is written in which flight school you did your PPL, ATPL theory, CPL and IR.

[future-pilot]

And how do many airlines know if you are an integrated or modular student ?

[plugg]

They don't. A licence is a licence ,doesn't matter which route you took.

[RTN11]

Nope, but it would be in your logbook. Most airlines probably don't care, but may have some schools they want to avoid, or wonder why if you did CPL + IR at different places.

[mad_jock]

Its pretty obvious to be honest if you look at a cv just by the hours mixture.

[Bealzebub]

And how do many airlines know if you are an integrated or modular student ?

They don't. A licence is a licence ,doesn't matter which route you took.

This needs to be put in context.

An airline isn't usually going to be interested in how you are training, for one simple reason. They aren't generally going to be interviewing you.

Most operators are looking for an experience portfolio that will have been acquired well beyond the training stage. A typical minimum portfolio for an airline with jet equipment would broadly be around 2000 hours, with at least 500 hours of significant turbine experience. The problem (as always) is how you get to that experience level, and this is where the "stepping stone" jobs come in. The route to that experience. That is one side of the equation.

On the other side, is the one area where airlines do care where you have done your training, and are in the market for very low houred apprentice pilots. These are the cadet programmes. These programmes usually source from a small group of training schools, who all utilize selective, integrated, and full time courses of training. In these cases, they most certainly are going to know how you have been trained because unless all the right boxes are ticked, you are not going be of any interest to them.

The reality is, that in many theatres, the combination of a weak market, massive oversupply of low houred "wannabes," and an expansion of the cadet programmes, coupled with a patchy recruitment market for career advancers, military leavers, and otherwise experienced pilots, has resulted in relatively good (in number) opportunities for cadet entrants, and relatively poor opportunities for the higher end of the "career improver" market. At the lower end it is a quagmire.

"The licence may be a licence," but in reality that is as meaningless as telling a racing driver, a professional chauffer, or a stunt driver, the same message. Simply having a licence means little. It is what you can realistically do with that licence that is important to most people on here. That is something few people seem to give adequate consideration to, and the results are here to read in thread after thread after thread.

The answer to the question "How do I get a licence?" Is a very different one to the question "How do I get a job after I have that licence?" If the question is "how do I become an airline pilot soon after acquiring that licence?" Then you had better do some serious homework, and I don't think some of you are going to like the answer.

[lightning bird]

Beazlebub the homework has been done and you are quite right I despise the answer, tastes bitter and hard to swallow, the trend being that the integrated programme with certain schools is the one most likely to be the one favoured by recruiters. If I had a free choice of options there is little doubt of what I would embark on. There is no free choice for me and I suspsect a lot others, modular is the only route. I have grown tired of reading and hearing the modular vs integrated debate,as it is one I cannot take part in for the chances of me going integrated are more remote than Timbuktu, the modular path is the only one realistically achievable. How do i get a licence, well I know of my only option, how do I get a job after that, well that seems to be now as remote as me going integrated due to my former statement.
In all due respect I am agreeing with what u are saying, but are you saying that those who choose modular are gradually beeing squeezed out and the noose is pretty tight at the moment? Are we embarking on a course and still a pretty pricey one at that, for a licence that is still equivelent to that of an intergrated student, however viewed "discriminantly" due to financial circumstance and dare I say background?

[mad_jock]

Its not as bad as all that.

There are operators who don't have huge lead times to LHS where the PIC skills of the modular are what they are looking for.

There are also reasonably large turboprop operators a couple in the UK who won't touch intergrated.

The rest of us who have a constant through put of stepping stone pilots really need guys with about 750 to 1000 hours mainly so they can get there 500 hours multi crew and a couple of winters then get shooved into the LHS unless they wern't up to it which some arn't.

If you want to only fly jets and arn't on a tagged scheme there is no real point these days training. And no point at all paying a premium because it won;t get you any benefits at all.

I was chatting to another companys LTC on the apron a couple of weeks ago about this and they were the same as us 6-8 aircraft old types with steam instruments. That the best option was an instructor who had done CPL FI first then left the IR for a while then done it with about 750 hours under there belt. Then continued to instruct while applying. They were then still current handling and the IR skill set was still fresh in thier heads. There CRM across the whole operation was better due to the interaction with the students and refuelers etc while instructing and they had a real world head on them instead of the make believe ops will do everything for you one.

I also notice as well that insurance premiums are increasing for taking on sub 500 hour TT FO's there must be quite a few prangs going on out there with that level of experence pilots.

[Bealzebub]

There are also reasonably large turboprop operators a couple in the UK who won't touch intergrated.

Possibly because there is no such thing? Literacy wouldn't seem to be high on their list of requirements either.

The rest of us who have a constant through put of stepping stone pilots really need guys with about 750 to 1000 hours mainly so they can get there 500 hours multi crew and a couple of winters then get shooved into the LHS unless they wern't up to it which some arn't.

Excellent! Because "stepping stone" jobs are exactly what this huge sector of the "wannabe" market is looking to obtain. The problem of course, is that it is like emptying a reservoir with a teaspoon. Not only that, but the stepping stones have some very large gaps to jump, and some of them are full, because there is very little space on the other side of the river? Why is there very little space? Because people used the "toll bridge" and occupied that space many years earlier.

However the good news is, that many people saved themselves the cost of the toll bridge, although so many were swept away in the process.

I also notice as well that insurance premiums are increasing for taking on sub 500 hour TT FO's there must be quite a few prangs going on out there with that level of experence pilots.

Outside of the general rise in insurance premiums, that is not a specific being replicated in all segments of the industry. Likely because the training requirements are more consistent, as well as the command experience base being so much higher. As you eloquently point out:

really need guys with about 750 to 1000 hours mainly so they can get there 500 hours multi crew and a couple of winters then get shooved into the LHS unless they wern't up to it which some arn't.

[mad_jock]

Did knowbody tell you that the direct toll bridges fell down due to sabotage of the owners, they had this idea they were going to get an advantage by locking in all the traffic but then didn't get the insurance pay out and the old bridge wasn't condemed. There is now an exclusive VIP boats that do the trip. If you don't have a ticket you can't get on to get off at the first stop.

Of course you can pay the old fee and sit on the boat while the others get off first and you stay on to the second stop instead of taking the old bridge. But you still end up in the mud bank like all the rest. But if you have the skill set and arn't weighed down with to much debt you can make it through to the rope bridge to the other island which then has a causeway to the main island. But some of the bridge walkers know people who give them a helping hand across the mud bank and they seem to have better equipment for getting through the mud as well. Some of them as well halfway across get picked up by a fishing boat and get dropped off at the main island. Thats really not fair and the boat companys are forced to go and have words with the fishing boat owners and offer them reduced tickets on VIP boat.

Unfortunately the boat operators are in a bit of a stick because there isn't enough traffic to support the boats without the second stop traffic being high enough. And it a swine because they can see enough traffic walking across the bridge to make things work but they don't want to pay the VIP boat rates and are quite happy walking.

Now the boat building company issued a report saying they predicted that the main island was in danger of not having enough residents. This was quite quickly realised to be a load of rubbish but the boat operators are hanging there pensions on it being true. Anyway they can always walk back across the old bridge if they can't get through the mud, the boat trip is a one way only ticket and no refunds. And no going back halfway because you realise you made a stupid choice.

Anyone who hasn't been given a VIP ticket for the first stop would be really silly to pay the fare anyway and they should have researched the options.

Now I wonder whats going to happen if nobody pays the VIP fare? I wonder if the boat service can continue?

Funny though there is a load of residents on the main island really want the direct service to continue and will do and say anything to keep people using it. What do they care if people have to walk back over the bridge and only get to look at the main island from the mud bank.

Not been a rise in the skipper experence rates I am afraid. So that theory is out the window.

Anyway we wouldn't have to stick them in at that level if they wern't dissappearing of to fly jets after a couple of years.

anyway I am sure we are going to go forwards and backwards as we usually do with you saying the only way to train is intergrated and me saying thats a load of rubbish.

Fact is though your side of things has completely screwed themselves by having tagged schemes with no chance of a job if your not tagged. And there isn't enough tagged work to keep the current training capacity.

[Bealzebub]

anyway I am sure we are going to go forwards and backwards as we usually do with you saying the only way to train is intergrated and me saying thats a load of rubbish.

No... I never say that. Firstly because it wouldn't be correct. The vast majority of wannabes will train using modular forms of training for a host of reasons, most of them financial! Secondly, because there is no such word. The word you are looking for is still integrated.

I am simply telling it as it is. Others can find out for themselves. So many approach these forums with the idea that simply obtaining a CPL/IR is their passport to a fast track airline career. That market is very limited and very specific. The "steppping stone" route has always been an alternative but a much slower one usually. It has always (naturally) been a much more crowded one as well. However since the "non-approved" CPL/IR and its modern day equivalent, was reduced from 700 hours to 250 hours, it has become crowded to the point it resembles a refugee camp. Am I wrong? Well look at so many thousands of these threads. Ask the people who are in it.

An investment of lots of money whatever those sums, is poorly consoled by the suggestion that you have bought "character, life experience," or any other such nonsense. Those attributes can be found for free in almost any walk of life. Spending £45,000 to have a shot at being a flying instructor, and then fighting for the second tier jobs in an even more oversubscribed market, may be the best shot for many applicants. Spending £85,000 for a shot at first tier work may be a better risk category for a few. The realities of what those risks are, as well as the reality of what is actually happening, is the information that is being proffered.

It doesn't matter what I like, or you like, or they like. It doesn't matter how you wish the world really was. It doesn't matter what is perceived as fair or unfair. It is what it is. For those thinking of buying into it, they should research very very carefully, and have an idea of what they really want, from their potential investment.

[mad_jock]

But you see I am saying the world the way I see it. And its not how you see it.

So as far as I see it your telling fibs because thats not the way my bit of the world works and its not how you are telling it.

But now that the tagged scheme is now in force

There are no first tier jobs unless you are pre selected. And even the pre selected jobs are now turbo prop. Because any sniff of recruitemnt and the schools will be round offering deals which as we both know are very sweet to an accountants ear.

The Ryanair jobs are open to both training methods.

If the world was as you see it we wouldn't be getting so many intergrated CV's through the letter box to fly an auld poo heap. Running about 15 new ones per month now.

[Bealzebub]

It is very difficult to follow the paradox of your argument. Perhaps after you edit it in the morning (again,) it will make more sense? It is very strange that for someone who rails against the concept of "integrated" you still cannot spell it? Since nobody can really be that stupid, a fair assumption would be that you simply choose to spell it incorrectly. If so, then a willful desire to be erroneous, would explain so much else in what you say.

Try cutting back on the quantity of your posts, and improving the quality. Whatever the merit in your submissions, it is more likely to be taken seriously if you have made even a token effort at accuracy.

Your "corner of the world" is a "stepping stone" and there is nothing wrong with that. However you presume to tell everybody else that nothing they might choose to do, that potentially leapfrogs your own situation, makes them anything other than idiotic.

There are no first tier jobs unless you are pre selected

No! There are. I am seeing pilots being recruited from other airlines, the military, and specific ab-initio training programmes.

And even the pre selected jobs are now turbo prop

Some may be, but some aren't. In any event, it only reflects how this sector of the training market is expanding despite a recession.
QED.

[mad_jock]

whats wrong running out of arguments so you have to have a go at the poster?

Its not expanding there is a raft of sales folk trawling round trying to do deals for exclusive rights to supply with some very tasty accountancy ploys to reduce costs to the airline which the accountants love. And they have pretty much run out of them that will even let them in the door.

The training industry is hugely over supplied and with thier fixed costs intergrated is particularly vunerable.

But even taking all the tagged schemes you can get its still not enough to keep things how they are.

And I am not telling anyone what to do I am simply telling them that your point of view is only one point of view. Coming from a different direction the world is different with pilots getting jobs and moving up the ladder without having to pay for one method of training.

In fact I have repeatedly said if your on a tagged scheme go for it.

To put it in context and why its so important for some to promote the intergrated method for training for every person that doesn't go down that route thats about 40 thousand pounds gone from the training industry and remaining in the pilots pocket.

Crack on posting back though it gets the numbers up in the search engines and more parents who the supply the capital will see that the marketing isn't really telling the truth. There is no shortage of pilots and paying a premium isn't going to really help young Johnny get into a multicrew aircraft never mind a jet.

And by paying the premium all you are doing is subsidising the tagged schemes.

[Jugs08]

Delusion

The problem is people have a lot of money in property now since the last boom. My parents genertion made 200k simply by purchasing a house.

It's this that is funding the current situation.

The big schools are all selling a highly desired Product eg your son as an airline pilot. Motivation buy in factors are high. All these people have the desire to buy so the schools can simply name their price.

I think the training industry is subsidising the industry in general and without all the P2F contracts and other revenue generators I think a lot of airlines would be bust.

There have been downturns before, but there hasn't been this game changing flexicrew and TR agreements. So I guess we are into uncharted territory.

When in the next 3-5 years this becomes recognised in society all the youngsters will be queueing up for investment banker courses.

The current situation is unique. The next generation are not motivated by passion they are motivated by money. Especially if it's as quick as possible, hence everyone wanting to get straight into a jet.

Once they realise this isn't going to happen they will turn their back for an easier ride. As believe me they are out there.

[future-pilot]

Thanks everyone for the answers!

I want to resume this thread in order to ask another question.
I've always wondered if someone does the PPL and ATPL exams in UK and then move to Sweden to do CPL and IR training, which authority will issue the licence? The CAA or the Swedish authority?

[Wirbelsturm]

I've always wondered if someone does the PPL and ATPL exams in UK and then move to Sweden to do CPL and IR training, which authority will issue the licence? The CAA or the Swedish authority?

Neither, it will be an EASA licence.