View Poll Results: Should CAA ban HIDDEN COSTS OF FLYING?
Definately
63
80.77%
Definately Not
8
10.26%
Don't Care
7
8.97%
Voters: 78. This poll is closed
Please CAA-Its time to stop hidden costs
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Please CAA-Its time to stop hidden costs
Attn CAA or relevant Governing bodies
I think everybody would agree that searching for cheap hours can be a total nightmare, especially when learning to fly. TRhat's why it's time to put a stop to all the hidden costs that flying schools/clubs advertise and show the potential customers the REAL prices. No more "prices exclude VAT" or "prices do not include instructor costs". Let's make the fares accessable to all and stop the cowboys from ripping us all off. Some of us wannabees have to work god damn hard in order to pay for maybe one or two lessons! So stop targeting the rich and give us peasants a chance to learn to fly or at least the chance to explore the TRUTH.
If you agree to this post please reply so that I can see if I am the only one who has this opinion.
Many thanks
I think everybody would agree that searching for cheap hours can be a total nightmare, especially when learning to fly. TRhat's why it's time to put a stop to all the hidden costs that flying schools/clubs advertise and show the potential customers the REAL prices. No more "prices exclude VAT" or "prices do not include instructor costs". Let's make the fares accessable to all and stop the cowboys from ripping us all off. Some of us wannabees have to work god damn hard in order to pay for maybe one or two lessons! So stop targeting the rich and give us peasants a chance to learn to fly or at least the chance to explore the TRUTH.
If you agree to this post please reply so that I can see if I am the only one who has this opinion.
Many thanks
Join Date: Oct 2000
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As far as I can see this has nothing to do with the CAA.
If you want the CAA to start taking on the work of Trading Standards Departments then the CAA's costs and therefore charges are going to rise.
If a price is quoted as "prices do not include vat" then I don't see that is a hidden charge. A hidden charge would be to avoid telling you that you have to pay for something that might not occur to you as a new student. Perhaps landing fees, or club membership fees.
If you want the CAA to start taking on the work of Trading Standards Departments then the CAA's costs and therefore charges are going to rise.
If a price is quoted as "prices do not include vat" then I don't see that is a hidden charge. A hidden charge would be to avoid telling you that you have to pay for something that might not occur to you as a new student. Perhaps landing fees, or club membership fees.
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Here's some outragous costs the CAA which definately does come within it's remit:
£718 for initial attempts at ATPL theory exams. This is nothing less than an abuse of it's position.
~£400 for initial class one medical - perhaps not as bad, but still pushing it.
£271 for issuing a JAR PPL(A), with IMC and Night Ratings - compare how much the FAA charges for similar services.
£718 for initial attempts at ATPL theory exams. This is nothing less than an abuse of it's position.
~£400 for initial class one medical - perhaps not as bad, but still pushing it.
£271 for issuing a JAR PPL(A), with IMC and Night Ratings - compare how much the FAA charges for similar services.
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The difference id that in the US the FAA is funded from the public purse wheras the CAA must cover all of its costs in fees as it gets no funding from the government.
If you consider the case of exams, if you choose to sit these at a remote (from Aviation House) venue the CAA has to pay someone for the rental of the exam hall, pay for the invigilators, costs of marking etc etc.
The overheads on the Belgrano cant be cheap either.
But I do agree its a lot of money. Make sure you go and have luinch in their canteen one day and recoup a fraction of what you've paid in.
I think I paid the CAA the best part of 4 grand to get my CPL/IR with frozen ATPL.
If you consider the case of exams, if you choose to sit these at a remote (from Aviation House) venue the CAA has to pay someone for the rental of the exam hall, pay for the invigilators, costs of marking etc etc.
The overheads on the Belgrano cant be cheap either.
But I do agree its a lot of money. Make sure you go and have luinch in their canteen one day and recoup a fraction of what you've paid in.
I think I paid the CAA the best part of 4 grand to get my CPL/IR with frozen ATPL.
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I have been flying and training for many years and I feel that it is just like any other industry. You just have to pay attention and be a bit street wise, nothing specific to aviation I feel. The main cost that is usually not included and can add up, specially when training abroad, is cost of travel, housing and licence conversions etc.
It would be the same to complain about the Motorway police because welcom break is overcharging....
I do agree with Gin Slinger that some of the CAA costs are a bit over the top.. (understatement..) On the other hand I feel that the guys doing do the work in the licencing office at LGW do their best to help you. They are always on the receing end of our complaints while in 99% of the cases they are only executing orders. :o
It would be the same to complain about the Motorway police because welcom break is overcharging....
I do agree with Gin Slinger that some of the CAA costs are a bit over the top.. (understatement..) On the other hand I feel that the guys doing do the work in the licencing office at LGW do their best to help you. They are always on the receing end of our complaints while in 99% of the cases they are only executing orders. :o
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Excellent, a Poll. But will our concerns actually get back to the source (CAA)? I for one am finding the planning extremely tricky when trying to estimate total costs for training and when I think "Waoooh...OK this is my final figure" some additional research then proves different and there is yet more costs to be included.
What about a course 'Financial and Course Planning for the JAR-FCL ATPL's'. I find most of my time recently has been spent paraniodly re-checking my totals and thinking "Have I left something out"? Instead I should be focusing my valuable time and effort into exam preparation and training!!!
Let's see something done...
What about a course 'Financial and Course Planning for the JAR-FCL ATPL's'. I find most of my time recently has been spent paraniodly re-checking my totals and thinking "Have I left something out"? Instead I should be focusing my valuable time and effort into exam preparation and training!!!
Let's see something done...
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I don't have it with me, so I might be wrong, but...
...the sales literature from Pilot Assist includes a complete breakdown of all of the costs involved in going from zero-ATPL, and I think this includes CAA charges such as exams and license issue.
I'm not suggesting that you do or don't use Pilot Assist, but ask them for their sales brochure, take a look at the back, and (if you decide not to use them) deduct all their charges and overheads, and you should come out with a realistic figure.
I haven't tried this myself, so I accept no responsibility if I'm wrong and there's loads of stuff missing from their breakdown!
(And no, this doesn't condone the CAA's charges - just trying to find a way around the fact that people are having problems budgeting due to the hidden nature of the charges.)
FFF
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...the sales literature from Pilot Assist includes a complete breakdown of all of the costs involved in going from zero-ATPL, and I think this includes CAA charges such as exams and license issue.
I'm not suggesting that you do or don't use Pilot Assist, but ask them for their sales brochure, take a look at the back, and (if you decide not to use them) deduct all their charges and overheads, and you should come out with a realistic figure.
I haven't tried this myself, so I accept no responsibility if I'm wrong and there's loads of stuff missing from their breakdown!
(And no, this doesn't condone the CAA's charges - just trying to find a way around the fact that people are having problems budgeting due to the hidden nature of the charges.)
FFF
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What the hell has the price that a private company charges got to do with the CAA ?
If the CAA got involved with this the costs would be very large indeed and you and I would pay in the end.
This thread just shows the attitude of lack of personal responsabilty that people think that they should take for there lives today and I for one dont want to be flown in an airliner by a crew who think that all that happens to them is the fault of another party.
Get a life guys befor the nanny state gets you.
If the CAA got involved with this the costs would be very large indeed and you and I would pay in the end.
This thread just shows the attitude of lack of personal responsabilty that people think that they should take for there lives today and I for one dont want to be flown in an airliner by a crew who think that all that happens to them is the fault of another party.
Get a life guys befor the nanny state gets you.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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A and C,
I think you may have missed the point of my post. As you say, the price that Pilto Assist charge is completely irrelevant to this thread. However, several people have said that they found it hard to budget, given that there doesn't seem to be a definitive list of all of the CAA charges involved in their training. All I was saying was that I think I know of a source for finding out these charges - I believe they are listed in the back of Pilot Assist's sales brochure. This is completely separate to the amount which Pilot Assist charge for their services. Apologies for any confusion caused.
FFF
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I think you may have missed the point of my post. As you say, the price that Pilto Assist charge is completely irrelevant to this thread. However, several people have said that they found it hard to budget, given that there doesn't seem to be a definitive list of all of the CAA charges involved in their training. All I was saying was that I think I know of a source for finding out these charges - I believe they are listed in the back of Pilot Assist's sales brochure. This is completely separate to the amount which Pilot Assist charge for their services. Apologies for any confusion caused.
FFF
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given that there doesn't seem to be a definitive list of all of the CAA charges involved in their training
Anything else is a charge by the school, not the CAA.
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A & C
No-one is discussing the level of he charges of private companies, but the transparency of those charges as advertised. In the case of a school approved by the CAA to give training (as all commercial training organisations, FTOs, must be) a case can clearly be put that this is within the remit of the CAA. The cost would not be high, as all the companies go through extensive auditing anyway.
No-one is discussing the level of he charges of private companies, but the transparency of those charges as advertised. In the case of a school approved by the CAA to give training (as all commercial training organisations, FTOs, must be) a case can clearly be put that this is within the remit of the CAA. The cost would not be high, as all the companies go through extensive auditing anyway.
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It,s not for the CAA to regulate the business practices of a private company there job is to see that the requirments of the ANO are met and as a goverment department publish a clear scale of charges.
Part of living in a free contry is that yoou have control of your life so how you spend your money is down to YOU.
The wise will use these pages to ask questions about aspects of aviation and will find out far more than a goverment department would tell them for fear of leagal action.
The business practices of a number of companys have been the subject of threads at one time or another and most of the comments are well reasond with a balance of both pleased and not so pleased customers and a trend will develope from that the astute will base further reserch as to were to go for training.
Most companys do not make comment on these pages ,letting the customers comments reflect on there business , one company has made threats of leagal action to pprune and cannot be mentioned on these pages , I wonder what conclusions the readership drew about the business practices at that company ?.
CAA control private businesses ? .....NO the best protection from being ripped of is right here on pprune.
Part of living in a free contry is that yoou have control of your life so how you spend your money is down to YOU.
The wise will use these pages to ask questions about aspects of aviation and will find out far more than a goverment department would tell them for fear of leagal action.
The business practices of a number of companys have been the subject of threads at one time or another and most of the comments are well reasond with a balance of both pleased and not so pleased customers and a trend will develope from that the astute will base further reserch as to were to go for training.
Most companys do not make comment on these pages ,letting the customers comments reflect on there business , one company has made threats of leagal action to pprune and cannot be mentioned on these pages , I wonder what conclusions the readership drew about the business practices at that company ?.
CAA control private businesses ? .....NO the best protection from being ripped of is right here on pprune.
I have to agree with A and C on this one.
Part of becoming a Professional pilot is taking upon yourself the task of understanding regualtory documents. If you can't be bothered to find the (now online for heavens sake!) CAP pertaining to CAA charges then perhaps you don't want to be a Professional pilot quite as much as if often required...
An as historical aside it was Churchill who decreed that the new fangled Air Ministry must be self funding from charges made against air companies and their employees. Much unlike it Naval counterpart... Don't blame the CAA for having to charge you at a commercial rate whilst the FAA are a Government funded agency. Just another example of anti-competitive US aviation policy!
The CAA are much much more customer focussed than they were even five years ago. I know you may find that hard but it is true. I hated writing big cheques to them just as much as you - but - you must blame Churchill for that and not the CAA staff.
Just make sure you stuff your face in the canteen should you visit :o !!!
WWW
Part of becoming a Professional pilot is taking upon yourself the task of understanding regualtory documents. If you can't be bothered to find the (now online for heavens sake!) CAP pertaining to CAA charges then perhaps you don't want to be a Professional pilot quite as much as if often required...
An as historical aside it was Churchill who decreed that the new fangled Air Ministry must be self funding from charges made against air companies and their employees. Much unlike it Naval counterpart... Don't blame the CAA for having to charge you at a commercial rate whilst the FAA are a Government funded agency. Just another example of anti-competitive US aviation policy!
The CAA are much much more customer focussed than they were even five years ago. I know you may find that hard but it is true. I hated writing big cheques to them just as much as you - but - you must blame Churchill for that and not the CAA staff.
Just make sure you stuff your face in the canteen should you visit :o !!!
WWW
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Not free, but heavily subsidised, and the food is great.
It is also a good place to sit quietly and listen to the gossip.
Some of the bods from the enforcement side are marvellously indiscreet.....
It is also a good place to sit quietly and listen to the gossip.
Some of the bods from the enforcement side are marvellously indiscreet.....
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The REAL deal as far for the CAA
The real problem as far as the CAA is concerned is the publication of the statistics that represent the worthfulness of a frozen ATPL as far as employment is concerened.
How many people sit/pass ATPLs
How many people sit/pass CPL
How many people sit/pass IR
How many people sit/pass MCC
How many people sit/pass Multi-Crew Type rating
What percentage of CPL/IRs have current muti-crew type ratings
and Class I medicals?
This is the REAL scandal - the figures if revealed would affect CAA and flight school revenue big time if known........................
How many people sit/pass ATPLs
How many people sit/pass CPL
How many people sit/pass IR
How many people sit/pass MCC
How many people sit/pass Multi-Crew Type rating
What percentage of CPL/IRs have current muti-crew type ratings
and Class I medicals?
This is the REAL scandal - the figures if revealed would affect CAA and flight school revenue big time if known........................
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