Doing an IR part time
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Doing an IR part time
Chaps/chapesses,
Is it viable to do an IR part time? What I mean by that is that I'm very limited in taking time off, and could probably muster a week off max. My plan would be:
Do as much as possible after hours (I finish 15.30 west London) and/or weekends, and spend a week prior to the test finning those new skills, and hopefully take the test.
So, for part A, location needs to be within reach of London (pref SW), but part B could be anywhere.
Also, I don't need to do an approved course, so I could do it with a freelancer, providing we could get our hands on a sim and a CAAFU approved ME.
Anyone know someone/club who may be able to do this? Is it feasible?
TIA
PS
Is it viable to do an IR part time? What I mean by that is that I'm very limited in taking time off, and could probably muster a week off max. My plan would be:
Do as much as possible after hours (I finish 15.30 west London) and/or weekends, and spend a week prior to the test finning those new skills, and hopefully take the test.
So, for part A, location needs to be within reach of London (pref SW), but part B could be anywhere.
Also, I don't need to do an approved course, so I could do it with a freelancer, providing we could get our hands on a sim and a CAAFU approved ME.
Anyone know someone/club who may be able to do this? Is it feasible?
TIA
PS
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People have done it in the past.
It is a VERY VERY VERY hard road though
I have seen Tornado/harrier pilots do it in 3 weeks full time
My advice is to do it full time (2 months)
It requires TOTAL committment the IR
Its a tw@t
I am about to return for another crack
at it - I am in the same boat as you
Reducing your block time available will increase the cost and the elapsed time
for the whole exercise
Sorry to be so pessimistic but its all
true..
JAA regulations have increased time and
money for fATPL issue and most will have
quit work for extended periods to be successful
It is a VERY VERY VERY hard road though
I have seen Tornado/harrier pilots do it in 3 weeks full time
My advice is to do it full time (2 months)
It requires TOTAL committment the IR
Its a tw@t
I am about to return for another crack
at it - I am in the same boat as you
Reducing your block time available will increase the cost and the elapsed time
for the whole exercise
Sorry to be so pessimistic but its all
true..
JAA regulations have increased time and
money for fATPL issue and most will have
quit work for extended periods to be successful
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RVR,
2 months? Crickey. Most people I've spoken to recon to have it done with a solid 3 weeks.
JAR has nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned as it does not apply to me. I just need to do suficient to pass the test.
Also, I've been there before, it's just that I let the rechid thing lapse, so I've got to do it all over again. Last time I did it, it took about 3 weeks, without the benefit of having done it before.
Best of luck
PS
2 months? Crickey. Most people I've spoken to recon to have it done with a solid 3 weeks.
JAR has nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned as it does not apply to me. I just need to do suficient to pass the test.
Also, I've been there before, it's just that I let the rechid thing lapse, so I've got to do it all over again. Last time I did it, it took about 3 weeks, without the benefit of having done it before.
Best of luck
PS
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I think you'll find there are a number of places that would expect to get you through in 3 weeks full time.
RVR800's reference to Harrier/Tornado pilots is a bit misleading; these guys have many, many hours, and have regularly completed procedural IRs in the RAF. Their 3-week course will have included a ME type rating to validate their ATPLs - for some reason the CAA doesn't recognise a Tornado as a public transport multi-engine aircraft
. I had to do the same type rating malarky when I was leaving the RAF, as the C130 doesn't appear on the UK civil register, although we could do our IR on the Herc.
As for part-time work up to the IR, there's no reason why you shouldn't successfully achieve that as long as you work very hard to get the best continuity you can. That would mean trying to get mid-week evening trips in the summer, and as much as possible at the weekends. I doubt it would save you any money, though!
RVR800's reference to Harrier/Tornado pilots is a bit misleading; these guys have many, many hours, and have regularly completed procedural IRs in the RAF. Their 3-week course will have included a ME type rating to validate their ATPLs - for some reason the CAA doesn't recognise a Tornado as a public transport multi-engine aircraft
. I had to do the same type rating malarky when I was leaving the RAF, as the C130 doesn't appear on the UK civil register, although we could do our IR on the Herc.As for part-time work up to the IR, there's no reason why you shouldn't successfully achieve that as long as you work very hard to get the best continuity you can. That would mean trying to get mid-week evening trips in the summer, and as much as possible at the weekends. I doubt it would save you any money, though!
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Highly unadvisable.
I tried to do my British IR part time with Stapleford Flying Club while living in London last year (I already had 750 TT, a New Zealand IR and about 100 hours IFR time logged in that country). It took me 5 months part time, most of that was wasted effort, I simply couldn't get myself up to the standard required by flying on a part time basis. In the end my instructor told me to stop wasting my money and not come back until I had quit my job and could devote full time effort to it. I got through it first time in the end after a couple of weeks of intensive training, but I reckon I'd probably still be trying to pass it now if I had kept on trying to do it on a weekend basis.
It may be do-able part time by better mortals than myself but for anyone it would be a MASSIVE additional effort. The UK/JAR IR is without a doubt the hardest flight test in the world, less than half of the applicants get through it first time.
I tried to do my British IR part time with Stapleford Flying Club while living in London last year (I already had 750 TT, a New Zealand IR and about 100 hours IFR time logged in that country). It took me 5 months part time, most of that was wasted effort, I simply couldn't get myself up to the standard required by flying on a part time basis. In the end my instructor told me to stop wasting my money and not come back until I had quit my job and could devote full time effort to it. I got through it first time in the end after a couple of weeks of intensive training, but I reckon I'd probably still be trying to pass it now if I had kept on trying to do it on a weekend basis.
It may be do-able part time by better mortals than myself but for anyone it would be a MASSIVE additional effort. The UK/JAR IR is without a doubt the hardest flight test in the world, less than half of the applicants get through it first time.
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I did my unapproved IR course whilst working. I was lucky enough to work close to a flying club though. Originally I planned to do the course over 3 weeks full time, but due to availability at the school I only managed about 2 hours in the sim during this time, so I spent the next 2 or 3 weeks dashing to the school on extended lunch breaks to do the flying and a bit of groundschool. Its difficult and you have to be really focused and totally committed. It helps if you are able to quickly swithc between work and instrument flying and get in the mode quickly.
So yes, its possible to do the unapproved IR course in the way you suggest but it will be hard work. But given my time again I would probably do the same thing (unless someone was paying me to be off work).
Good luck!
So yes, its possible to do the unapproved IR course in the way you suggest but it will be hard work. But given my time again I would probably do the same thing (unless someone was paying me to be off work).
Good luck!
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Have to agree with most of the chaps - part-time is a tough route. However, having been there myself (also spread over 5 months - schools fault not mine), sometimes it's the only realistic option.
Save yourself some money by :
(a) Being totally focussed and prepared when you do fly.
(b) Invest in RANT 2000 or something similar to keep current on procedures / SID's etc. when not flying (armchair flying is cheap!)
P.S. Don't get carried away with the talk of how hard it is. It is hard, but is eminently passable - GOOD LUCK!
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Crackle ]
Save yourself some money by :
(a) Being totally focussed and prepared when you do fly.
(b) Invest in RANT 2000 or something similar to keep current on procedures / SID's etc. when not flying (armchair flying is cheap!)
P.S. Don't get carried away with the talk of how hard it is. It is hard, but is eminently passable - GOOD LUCK!
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Crackle ]
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Of course it's possible; if things go your way and you alone know if flying once a week is enough for you to retain everything from the week before and then build upon it.
Most people, however, will find that it just needs continuity............each day, not each week, to stand a hope in hells chance of passing.
If you're looking at keeping costs down to a minimum as well, and you're not the sort of person who can thrive on one flight a week, then the choice is simple; Wait 'til the time is right (work wise and flying wise), leave the job and dive in head first, AND PASS IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
Your choice, nobody else can make it for you, you alone know what's best and what you need to do it.
Good luck
PP
Most people, however, will find that it just needs continuity............each day, not each week, to stand a hope in hells chance of passing.
If you're looking at keeping costs down to a minimum as well, and you're not the sort of person who can thrive on one flight a week, then the choice is simple; Wait 'til the time is right (work wise and flying wise), leave the job and dive in head first, AND PASS IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
Your choice, nobody else can make it for you, you alone know what's best and what you need to do it.
Good luck
PP
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just to add another variable, here's a couple of questions.
(1) what are the possibilities of taking the I/R BEFORE going on to take the ATPL's and CPL flight test?
(2) rant 2000, anybody have any opinions they'd be willing to share? it seems like a good package.
(1) what are the possibilities of taking the I/R BEFORE going on to take the ATPL's and CPL flight test?
(2) rant 2000, anybody have any opinions they'd be willing to share? it seems like a good package.
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You cannot take the IR test before having completed the written exams. You can however do the IR best before the CPL, in fact this way results in the minimum number of training hours (and total time) before you end up with your CPL/IR. However, the step between PPL and ME/IR is massive, and the CPL Skill Test is a good bridge between the two. I would be extremely cautious about doing the IR first.
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Great set of answers all round.
What I'll probably end up doing is a combination of part time, then do whatever it takes to finish off full time. It may mean I'll have to get on my knees to my employer, but it would not be the first time.
The real problem is how long to take off, and I feel that once into it, I'll have a better idea.
wrt RANT2000, does that come with instructions on how to setup the procedures, or is it just another flavour of FS2000 that I already have?
Thanks again
PS
What I'll probably end up doing is a combination of part time, then do whatever it takes to finish off full time. It may mean I'll have to get on my knees to my employer, but it would not be the first time.
The real problem is how long to take off, and I feel that once into it, I'll have a better idea.
wrt RANT2000, does that come with instructions on how to setup the procedures, or is it just another flavour of FS2000 that I already have?
Thanks again
PS
And you wonder why so many Europeans go to the US or Oz to do their instrument ratings. 5 out of 10 candidates failing on their 1st attempt, god what a crock. Seems like the tests need changing.
Just look at the Americans, you can do an instrument rating in 10 days, and they fly in even worse weather that in Europe, and there are 1000 times as many aircraft and pilots in the US as there is in Europe. Just look at how many US private pilots hold instrument ratings.
Here in Oz, the majority of of instrument ratings are done on a casual, once or twice a week basis, half are private pilots. Where I am, we do 20 hrs in the sim(that part is a good idea to do it 4 hrs a day), then averaging 22 to 25 hrs in the Duchess. ILS, LLZ, VOR and NDB approaches are all done. The interesting part is that our last 3 students got the IR with 150 hrs TT or there abouts, all PPL's.........and the 1st tome pass rate is probably up near 80%.
I think your beaurocrats in the JAA are having themselves on.
Just look at the Americans, you can do an instrument rating in 10 days, and they fly in even worse weather that in Europe, and there are 1000 times as many aircraft and pilots in the US as there is in Europe. Just look at how many US private pilots hold instrument ratings.
Here in Oz, the majority of of instrument ratings are done on a casual, once or twice a week basis, half are private pilots. Where I am, we do 20 hrs in the sim(that part is a good idea to do it 4 hrs a day), then averaging 22 to 25 hrs in the Duchess. ILS, LLZ, VOR and NDB approaches are all done. The interesting part is that our last 3 students got the IR with 150 hrs TT or there abouts, all PPL's.........and the 1st tome pass rate is probably up near 80%.
I think your beaurocrats in the JAA are having themselves on.
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Yea, its a shame JAA doesn't recognise any other ICAO IR's and you're forced to do the full JAA course regardless of number of hrs instrument time you already have, and as for £9,000 for the course....!
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Hi Polar,
I tend to agree with all the advice you have been given i.e. try to do the IR full time. However, since I did it sort of part-time, I'll tell you how I did it. I got the writtens out of the way but then had a long delay trying (unsuccessfully) to save enough money for the flying. In the end, managed to increase the credit limit on two credit cards and used those. I found it extremely difficult to get a block of time off (I'm self-employed) so I did all the sim work at weekends. (I could only manage two sessions a day totaling 2 to 3 hours) I did try 3 sessions one day but I was just wasting my money on the third session, I was mentally too exhausted to gain much.
When I had finished all the sim hours the plan was to go back for the flying a few weeks later. I found a school who were prepared for me to do blocks of four days a week from Friday to Monday which I thought would be almost as good as full time Monday-to Friday. I was wrong..... My progress suffered because I underestimated the difficulty of working longer than normal days on Tuesday to Thursday, then driving 200 miles to stay in B&B followed by 2-flights a day IR training for four days followed by a 200 mile drive back on Monday nights and back into work the next three days.. and so on.
Looking back, it seems obvious that I was overestimating my stamina and ability to learn under these circumstances. Fortunately I did eventually get a first time pass, but I had previously blown more than one F170A checks.
Like others have said, it might be cheaper in the long run to hand in your notice, or at least take all your annual leave in one chunk before trying to do the flying. I don't regret doing the sim work part time first though, getting that out of the way certainly helped.
By the way, I've not paid off the credit cards yet. All donations gratefully received.
Finally, Good Luck !!
I tend to agree with all the advice you have been given i.e. try to do the IR full time. However, since I did it sort of part-time, I'll tell you how I did it. I got the writtens out of the way but then had a long delay trying (unsuccessfully) to save enough money for the flying. In the end, managed to increase the credit limit on two credit cards and used those. I found it extremely difficult to get a block of time off (I'm self-employed) so I did all the sim work at weekends. (I could only manage two sessions a day totaling 2 to 3 hours) I did try 3 sessions one day but I was just wasting my money on the third session, I was mentally too exhausted to gain much.
When I had finished all the sim hours the plan was to go back for the flying a few weeks later. I found a school who were prepared for me to do blocks of four days a week from Friday to Monday which I thought would be almost as good as full time Monday-to Friday. I was wrong..... My progress suffered because I underestimated the difficulty of working longer than normal days on Tuesday to Thursday, then driving 200 miles to stay in B&B followed by 2-flights a day IR training for four days followed by a 200 mile drive back on Monday nights and back into work the next three days.. and so on.
Looking back, it seems obvious that I was overestimating my stamina and ability to learn under these circumstances. Fortunately I did eventually get a first time pass, but I had previously blown more than one F170A checks.
Like others have said, it might be cheaper in the long run to hand in your notice, or at least take all your annual leave in one chunk before trying to do the flying. I don't regret doing the sim work part time first though, getting that out of the way certainly helped.
By the way, I've not paid off the credit cards yet. All donations gratefully received.
Finally, Good Luck !!
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Polar
RANT 2000 is very different from FS2000. Purely a radio aids tutor with only the relevant nav instruments shown. Can be set up for almost any nav fit (even EFIS!)to match your a/c, and has several very useful tutors (on anything from holds to VOR tracking). I guarantee that this will save you money on your I/R and get you up to speed procedurally. For the cost of about 15 mins I/R training it's worth a look.
RANT 2000 is very different from FS2000. Purely a radio aids tutor with only the relevant nav instruments shown. Can be set up for almost any nav fit (even EFIS!)to match your a/c, and has several very useful tutors (on anything from holds to VOR tracking). I guarantee that this will save you money on your I/R and get you up to speed procedurally. For the cost of about 15 mins I/R training it's worth a look.
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Thanks again.
Having looked at the Rant2000, my only comment is that it's a shame you can't control it with a joy stick, thus getting ones scan going at the same time.
Good luck to ya all.
PS
Having looked at the Rant2000, my only comment is that it's a shame you can't control it with a joy stick, thus getting ones scan going at the same time.
Good luck to ya all.
PS
Polar,
I did my IR sort of part time. I started in the sim every Saturday for about a month and then finished off with two weeks intensive flying. The two weeks of flying was very hard work with very long days, but it can be done if you go for it.
I went to PAT at Bournemouth.
Computer IR sims; get a freebie at
http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/
I used it for all my practice, especially the holds.
Good Luck,
Vigi
I did my IR sort of part time. I started in the sim every Saturday for about a month and then finished off with two weeks intensive flying. The two weeks of flying was very hard work with very long days, but it can be done if you go for it.
I went to PAT at Bournemouth.
Computer IR sims; get a freebie at
http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/
I used it for all my practice, especially the holds.
Good Luck,
Vigi
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Vigi,
Well done. It sounds very similar to what I plan to do. What did you think of PAT, and what are their charges like? Where they accomodating in terms of doing it Saturdays?
BMH I can get to in about an hour and a half, so maybe a good way to do it.
Thanks for the free sim. Looks realy neat.
All the best
PS
Edited to correct spilengs....
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]
Well done. It sounds very similar to what I plan to do. What did you think of PAT, and what are their charges like? Where they accomodating in terms of doing it Saturdays?
BMH I can get to in about an hour and a half, so maybe a good way to do it.
Thanks for the free sim. Looks realy neat.
All the best
PS
Edited to correct spilengs....
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]
I did my IR a couple of years ago so for prices I am out of date. I think it was £250/hr Duchess and £75/hr sim. You can also wanggle some free sim time on your own if you smile nicely!!
Driving down for the sim would work well, but don't do it for the flying as you will be too exhasuted.
Saturdays did not seem to be a problem for using the sim. They were not too happy about flying at the weekend though, but would at a push (eg. just before a test).
The school buildings are naff, being in an old nissian hut, but the aircraft are tidy and the IR Instructors good.
WWW, me and a bloke from my flying club went there with no snags.
Go and see them if your interested and tell them what you want to do. They are used to holiday time limited individuals like you and me!
It all pays off in the end as I am starting flying a turbo prop at the end of the month. No more worries of squashing in IR renewals in holiday time. Yipppee!!
Driving down for the sim would work well, but don't do it for the flying as you will be too exhasuted.
Saturdays did not seem to be a problem for using the sim. They were not too happy about flying at the weekend though, but would at a push (eg. just before a test).
The school buildings are naff, being in an old nissian hut, but the aircraft are tidy and the IR Instructors good.
WWW, me and a bloke from my flying club went there with no snags.
Go and see them if your interested and tell them what you want to do. They are used to holiday time limited individuals like you and me!
It all pays off in the end as I am starting flying a turbo prop at the end of the month. No more worries of squashing in IR renewals in holiday time. Yipppee!!