Is it ever worth appealing?
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Is it ever worth appealing?
I recently failed to pass a skill test. I believe the examiner's decision on one of the items was incorrect, in that his advice on how to correctly fly the item directly conflicts with that given by my instructor, and my understanding of the examiner's guidance.
Having read similar threads on this forum, I'm taking the advice not to give details but I'm unsure what to do. I don't want to appear arrogant, or to make problems for my career before it's started, but on the other hand I feel I should act responsibly when I'm aware of an error.
Are there any circumstances in which it's not career suicide to launch an appeal, or should I take it on the chin, learn from the other genuine mistakes I made during the test and do better next time? Is there a middle ground short of formal action? Unlike the poster of this thread I'm not proposing to sue anyone, I just want to do the the right thing for myself and others in the industry.
Any comments/advice appreciated.
Having read similar threads on this forum, I'm taking the advice not to give details but I'm unsure what to do. I don't want to appear arrogant, or to make problems for my career before it's started, but on the other hand I feel I should act responsibly when I'm aware of an error.
Are there any circumstances in which it's not career suicide to launch an appeal, or should I take it on the chin, learn from the other genuine mistakes I made during the test and do better next time? Is there a middle ground short of formal action? Unlike the poster of this thread I'm not proposing to sue anyone, I just want to do the the right thing for myself and others in the industry.
Any comments/advice appreciated.
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Was your instructor with you in the debrief?
From what I have seen, most examiners don't fail someone on ONE item. It is usually a combination of deficiencies.
Did he really fail you on ONE item? Or were there multiple items, but you feel that you were taught differently on one of the items that he debriefed?
It the latter is true and not the former, then I would not appeal at all, but rather you should go back and learn from the situation. There is usually more than one right answer in aviation, and if you can explain why you did something a certain way that is acceptable to the examiner, then they will usually accept it. If your instructor taught you something that is completely wrong and unsafe, then you should be having a talk with your instructor.
From what I have seen, most examiners don't fail someone on ONE item. It is usually a combination of deficiencies.
Did he really fail you on ONE item? Or were there multiple items, but you feel that you were taught differently on one of the items that he debriefed?
It the latter is true and not the former, then I would not appeal at all, but rather you should go back and learn from the situation. There is usually more than one right answer in aviation, and if you can explain why you did something a certain way that is acceptable to the examiner, then they will usually accept it. If your instructor taught you something that is completely wrong and unsafe, then you should be having a talk with your instructor.
I don't think that appealling is career suicide. It is confidential, and the worst that happens is you fail, and it'll get lost in the paperwork in the fullness of time.
What is career suicide is making a big public, legal or personal issue of it. If you appeal, keep it low key, and trust to the judgment of the system.
I'd recommend talking it through with your instructor and see how s/he feels it sits, before making any decision.
What is career suicide is making a big public, legal or personal issue of it. If you appeal, keep it low key, and trust to the judgment of the system.
I'd recommend talking it through with your instructor and see how s/he feels it sits, before making any decision.
Examiners and Instructors, for all their experience and professionalism, make mistakes. In your future flying career as a lowly FO you will see plenty of Captains making mistakes. It will be your job to point them out in a tactful manner and provide an essential back up.
During the course of my training I have experienced poor Instructors, biased Instructors and also those who just didn't like me (and made no effort to hide their feelings). I have felt short-changed and disadvantaged at times. However, I have also been trained by some extraordinary pilots and others who go the extra mile.
People who join training departments within Airlines or Aviation Authorities are from mixed backgrounds, with a variety of motives. They are not necessarily good teachers or good judges. Some are exceptionally good. Even they make mistakes.
But all in all, I think Zondaracer has a good point. Where a candidate makes a number of minor errors and the Examiner feels they have fallen short of the required standard they must hang their hat on something. Like the time I got the cane at school on the occasion it was actually somebody else talking in class, sometimes you get what you deserve for the wrong reasons.
If you can honestly say you deserved to pass and the mistake the Examiner highlighted was your only potential fail item, appeal. If in doubt, perhaps take it on the chin. As long as you can learn from the incident, you'll improve as a pilot.
Hope that helps.
During the course of my training I have experienced poor Instructors, biased Instructors and also those who just didn't like me (and made no effort to hide their feelings). I have felt short-changed and disadvantaged at times. However, I have also been trained by some extraordinary pilots and others who go the extra mile.
People who join training departments within Airlines or Aviation Authorities are from mixed backgrounds, with a variety of motives. They are not necessarily good teachers or good judges. Some are exceptionally good. Even they make mistakes.
But all in all, I think Zondaracer has a good point. Where a candidate makes a number of minor errors and the Examiner feels they have fallen short of the required standard they must hang their hat on something. Like the time I got the cane at school on the occasion it was actually somebody else talking in class, sometimes you get what you deserve for the wrong reasons.
If you can honestly say you deserved to pass and the mistake the Examiner highlighted was your only potential fail item, appeal. If in doubt, perhaps take it on the chin. As long as you can learn from the incident, you'll improve as a pilot.
Hope that helps.
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As has been said above there are 'failure items' and there is an overall standard of performance - both factors need to combine to pass a skills test.
indicates to me that it was not just a single error.
If there is a conflict of procedure between what you have been taught ( and subsequently flew ) and what the examiner thought you should have done then I would ask for clarification.
BUT do discuss it with your instructor / CFI before doing so!
HWB
or should I take it on the chin, learn from the other genuine mistakes I made during the test and do better next time?
If there is a conflict of procedure between what you have been taught ( and subsequently flew ) and what the examiner thought you should have done then I would ask for clarification.
BUT do discuss it with your instructor / CFI before doing so!
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I recently failed to pass a skill test. I believe the examiner's decision on one of the items was incorrect, in that his advice on how to correctly fly the item directly conflicts with that given by my instructor, and my understanding of the examiner's guidance.
He cannot fail you for the wrong reasons, because it is a safety issue here.
You should know what say the SOPs, regulation, or airmanship for the situation you encountered.
Making you fail for the wrong reason might guide you to focus/learn a wrong procedure instead of improving your weakness if you have any.
The opportunity to appeal if not used is not an opportunity.
Better to get rid of this possibility if when somebody wants to appeal he fears for his career.
You have the possibility to appeal? So do it. Everybody makes mistake, and you surely more than your examiner, still, when a mistake has been done (from whoever he/she is) it has to be admited and corrected, hence the possibility to appeal.
Honestly, I know this is tricky for you, but we would be able to help you much more if you told us the item you failed and why.
If the examiner doesn't want to hear you, and if you are right (well, it's possible right?) then you have the duty to speak up because aviation is more than an ego fight between 2 persons, it is all about airmanship, honesty, rules, SOPs, safety.
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As some have surmised, there were other items, and were it not for this one I wouldn't be considering an appeal. For the disputed item, my examiner's opinion is that the way I flew it does not achieve optimum performance and therefore safety. On reflection that is my opinion about the examiner's suggestion.
My instructor doesn't seem to think it's in my interests to rock the boat. Given some of the opinions I've seen on PPRuNe I wonder if he may be right, but I feel I would be neglecting my responsibilities as a pilot if I do nothing.
My instructor doesn't seem to think it's in my interests to rock the boat. Given some of the opinions I've seen on PPRuNe I wonder if he may be right, but I feel I would be neglecting my responsibilities as a pilot if I do nothing.
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It might help to give a hypothetical example - there are a few Examiners scattered around here. A favourite one on CPL tests is a candidate demonstrating a max performance climb (rate or angle) using 25"/2500rpm rather than max power. Partly due to the UK lore that claims 25/25 is max continuous power on most aero engines, despite the guidance given in engine manuals!!
