Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.

Counting the hours

Old 31st Mar 2012, 14:16
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Counting the hours

Sorry, I'm afraid this is a newbie question, but did a search and couldn't find a previous answer and it's rather important for me that I get this right, so I humbly ask your advice.

Hours flown and logged in the US are not counted towards your ATPL, I have been told, because the hours are flown under FAA regulations (I am based in Europe, so I'l be aiming for a JAR-licence).

If this is true (?), does that mean my hours flown in the USA will not count towards my IR/ME/CPL either? So for example I need 200 hours total for the CPL, but I cannot count the hours I have been doing in the US? In that case I don't understand why it's so popular to go to the US to do hour building?

Any clarification will be greatly appreciated
jadalabada is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2012, 14:28
  #2 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They count in full towards total as long as you were PIC of the aircraft ie signing the tech log. OR it was dual training.

The hours that folk have problems with is when 2 folk fly a single crew aircraft and both of them log the hours.
mad_jock is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2012, 16:23
  #3 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The hours that folk have problems with is when 2 folk fly a single crew aircraft and both of them log the hours.
and that happens when the pilot in the left seat is flying under the hood and the guy in the right seat is therefore acting as Safety Pilot. Under those circumstances under FAA regulations both may log PIC time which is not recognized by other authorities.

In that case I don't understand why it's so popular to go to the US to do hour building?
because it is generally perceived as being a cheaper option.
However, the better argument is that you can usually accumulate more hours due to the better weather in a shorter time period.
There is no point sharing time building with another pilot if you are time constrained as you only end up logging half the time - which is not the purpose - unless of course you are happy to double the time spent on the trip.
Gomrath is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2012, 19:36
  #4 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 3,048
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Well it is a little more complicated then that, I will try and cover the differences in logging between Europa-land and FAA-land.

Under FAA you can log PIC time when you are rated in the aircraft so most of the time the training for your Instrument rating is logged PIC.
Time flown with an Instructor can not be logged PIC, yet in Europa-land there are things such as SPIC, PICUS and P1S which are totally confusing

    Allows the logging of so-called "safetypilot time" which is very dubious, even under FAA as it was never intended for extensive timebuilding but for currency reasons.
    So Pilot A flies under the hood while Pilot B is now a required crew member under VFR to "see and avoid" and therefore Pilot B can also log PIC.
    Pilot A continues to log PIC since he/she is the "sole manipulator of the controls".
    You can only log the PIC and Total Time, not cross country, IFR, approaches, landings or anything else so it is truly useless time and just logbook padding
    Does not know or recognize "safetypilot PIC".
    Pilot A controlling the airplane and flying under the hood can still log legitimate Europe (JAA) PIC. So why do it?
    To legitimetely help your training buddy get more instrument practice time without having to pay for an Instructor. Hopefully your buddy will reciprocate and fly with you in return. Just no sense in logging it if you intend to return to Europe.
    • Pilot B needs to clean up his/her logbook and deduct all the looking-out-the-window PIC from their PIC total to arrive at a Europe(JAA) accepted PIC total.
    • All the time that you have logged PIC while you were not at the controls flying the airplane needs to be deducted.
    • FAA Safety pilot PIC DOES NOT COUNT towards your JAA required 100hrs PIC for your JAA CPL

    Timebuilding in the USA is very popular and rightfully so because:
    • Generally the weather is much better, free thunderstorms in Florida
    • Less Mickey Mouse airspace (MATZ, MITZ,LATZ,ATZ,TMA and whatever else)
    • More airspace where you will actually learn something (B,C,D)
    • You can fly for 30 hrs and still be in the same country with the same airspace and speaking the same language
    • Airspace that you are actually allowed to fly in/through as a Private Pilot
    • Fantastic radar services (free)
    • Fantastic flight planning and weather briefing services (free)
    • Fantastic aircraft at decent rates for a change ( New C182/G1000 w/ Instructor for the same prices as you would pay for a clapped out Pa28)
    B2N2 is offline  
    Old 2nd Apr 2012, 20:12
      #5 (permalink)  
    Join Date: Sep 2006
    Location: Delsey
    Posts: 744
    Likes: 0
    Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
    Timebuilding in the USA is very popular and rightfully so because:
    Girly bars
    Good shopping malls

    Seriously though, your point of more airspace where you will actually learn something I can't agree with. I totally agree that it's value for money flight time there, but experience in Europe prior to CPL training is more of a benefit to a low timer rather than operating in US class B etc. As far as speaking the same language, I'll never forget the first time I worked Boston centre (sorry, center!) after an Atlantic crossing... Hopefully the next generation of FMS's will have google translate!

    On the other hand, if the candidates intend to do the CPL test in the USA then possibly a different issue although they would still have to learn UK or other European airspace for the IR test.

    It's what's best for the individual students, I'm sure you will agree. I personally enjoyed light aircraft flying in the States although I was not hour building. Such freedom. Naples to the keys was always fun as was the 'space shuttle tour', and no night restrictions or costs to worry about.
    500 above is offline  

    Posting Rules
    You may not post new threads
    You may not post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are Off
    Pingbacks are Off
    Refbacks are Off

    Thread Tools
    Search this Thread

    Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

    Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.