Oxford B. S.
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Thanks to the people who e-mailed me regarding my posting, and the comments of www. The question of how is better than one or the other does not come into consideration. A Airline type training environment such as a CAP 509 course such as OATS provides infact places a easy transition from here to real life. As Captain Airclues points out to CRM is a major factor in futre training- infact along with CFIT it's one of the biggest causes of accidents- Poor CRM, infact CFIT's would probably dramatically reduce to. As a 747 Captain Captain Airclues emphised the new JAA sylabus- which infact is already being added in here. We have CRM lessons- we watch videos on accidents and why the communications broke down- and we do practicle role plays in the class room of situations. This is really where the difference in training between the two creeps in between the self impover and the 509'er.
And as Pontius points out the interview tech is important to- and this is all part of the education here, smart uniform, and the development of one's personal character of a responsible airline pilot is then naturally built in.
I was also wandering why www has gone silent since he posted his comment- Has he followed my advice- shut up and put his brain power into money earing power like we did once?
Any one doubting the CAP509 course should attend the OATS open day- have a look around this type of school- the sims, the expertise and I am sure you will realize soon that's why it's called a approved course and why airlines are prepared to take on the low hour Pilot- he or she.
PS- commenting about the self sponsored here - we all had flying experience here before ie PPL's adding to our hours ontop of what we leave here with- so 200 hours is perhaps a false impression.
And as Pontius points out the interview tech is important to- and this is all part of the education here, smart uniform, and the development of one's personal character of a responsible airline pilot is then naturally built in.
I was also wandering why www has gone silent since he posted his comment- Has he followed my advice- shut up and put his brain power into money earing power like we did once?
Any one doubting the CAP509 course should attend the OATS open day- have a look around this type of school- the sims, the expertise and I am sure you will realize soon that's why it's called a approved course and why airlines are prepared to take on the low hour Pilot- he or she.
PS- commenting about the self sponsored here - we all had flying experience here before ie PPL's adding to our hours ontop of what we leave here with- so 200 hours is perhaps a false impression.
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ME? Go quiet - surely some mistake? I just can't really get fired up by this thread much longer. However, please remember that I have nearly always ended my posts on 509 issues by admitting that if I had the money I would do the course. I have no chip on my shoulder and have friends at OATS right now on cadetships. Me, I've got to do the the self improver thing but thats cool with me.
Mr Isea Idea, CRM is important but don't think a self improver hasn't got a clue. I for instance hold a Psychology degree and have studied this subject at great length. Self improvers can also enroll on all manner of nifty little CRM courses around the UK and many do. You also learn a heck of a lot about cockpit communications instructing for 500 hundred hours e.g. how not to insight panic, how to keep temper, build confidence, constructively criticize, re-emphasise information and so on. So lets not get too hung up on the CRM side of things shall we?
As regards developing ones personal character being important it certainly is. Why can that only be done at a 509 school - thats just bananas. I spent 6 years wearing a smart uniform in Air Cadets for example. It is also fairly character building to live in poverty for a couple of years and have to do EVERY job related to a flight including washing the aeroplane and making the tea!
Lets get back to the original issue here which is that a 509 course graduate does NOT necessarily find employment with no real problem which is the DANGEROUS impression often fostered in the aviation training industry. There is a bit of a BS factor that gets fed to naive wannabees that runs along the lines of:
"look at our fancy brochure, see our wonderful facilities, by the way we train all the BA pilots you know (Prestwick and Cabair are equally as guilty of using that line) and if you sign me a big cheque you'll very probably be in a Boeing next year".
The safety issue I raised is NOT that 509'ers don't make excellent airline pilots - they do. The issue is that training on the line with a training captain causes a lot of work for that training captain and the more cadets there are the greater that burden becomes and therefore there is a sensible limit (which I believe is being rapidly approached). If that is the case then the current record numbers of 509 graduates in the next 12 months cannot be taken on to airline jobs. They will then have to look at T/P operators for which their training has not been geared and who will not really be interested in them. They will then face loss of curency and big loan repayments which is very demoralising. Nobody is out there talking to naive wannabees about this and obviously the schools will not make this arguement to them.
509'ers and Self Improvers have, like everybody says, their own strengths and weaknesses. The only thing I wish to contribute beyond that is that there is a limit to how many 509'ers can be absorbed by the industry and that there is a bit too much hype put out by the 509 schools that can catch out the under informed.
Finally Mr Isea Idea, regarding your advice to "shut up and put his brain power into money earning power like we once did". I get up 6.15 am and drive 30 miles to work from 8.00 am to 5.00 pm behind this desk. I go home, sort out my ironing, cooking, bills etc then settle down to do three hours of ATPL self study which I post off next morning when I return to work. Then when the weekend comes around I drive 50 miles to fly as a volunteer unpaid flying instructor for the Air Cadets - we start at dawn and finish at dusk. Whilst not teaching, cleaning aircraft, being a fireman, running the line or doing paperwork I squeeze in 8 hours of ATPL study in preperation for the week ahead. Whilst doing all of this I have to keep my girlfriend happy, visit my Nan and keep in touch with my mates. Please don't lecture me on working hard to fly. When I pass all my exams first time then my GFT and then my IR, I (like all self improvers), will have achieved a damn sight more than someone who has nothing else to do all day but focus on their training. But do you know what? I've never been happier mate so good luck to you - keep smiling WWW!
Mr Isea Idea, CRM is important but don't think a self improver hasn't got a clue. I for instance hold a Psychology degree and have studied this subject at great length. Self improvers can also enroll on all manner of nifty little CRM courses around the UK and many do. You also learn a heck of a lot about cockpit communications instructing for 500 hundred hours e.g. how not to insight panic, how to keep temper, build confidence, constructively criticize, re-emphasise information and so on. So lets not get too hung up on the CRM side of things shall we?
As regards developing ones personal character being important it certainly is. Why can that only be done at a 509 school - thats just bananas. I spent 6 years wearing a smart uniform in Air Cadets for example. It is also fairly character building to live in poverty for a couple of years and have to do EVERY job related to a flight including washing the aeroplane and making the tea!
Lets get back to the original issue here which is that a 509 course graduate does NOT necessarily find employment with no real problem which is the DANGEROUS impression often fostered in the aviation training industry. There is a bit of a BS factor that gets fed to naive wannabees that runs along the lines of:
"look at our fancy brochure, see our wonderful facilities, by the way we train all the BA pilots you know (Prestwick and Cabair are equally as guilty of using that line) and if you sign me a big cheque you'll very probably be in a Boeing next year".
The safety issue I raised is NOT that 509'ers don't make excellent airline pilots - they do. The issue is that training on the line with a training captain causes a lot of work for that training captain and the more cadets there are the greater that burden becomes and therefore there is a sensible limit (which I believe is being rapidly approached). If that is the case then the current record numbers of 509 graduates in the next 12 months cannot be taken on to airline jobs. They will then have to look at T/P operators for which their training has not been geared and who will not really be interested in them. They will then face loss of curency and big loan repayments which is very demoralising. Nobody is out there talking to naive wannabees about this and obviously the schools will not make this arguement to them.
509'ers and Self Improvers have, like everybody says, their own strengths and weaknesses. The only thing I wish to contribute beyond that is that there is a limit to how many 509'ers can be absorbed by the industry and that there is a bit too much hype put out by the 509 schools that can catch out the under informed.
Finally Mr Isea Idea, regarding your advice to "shut up and put his brain power into money earning power like we once did". I get up 6.15 am and drive 30 miles to work from 8.00 am to 5.00 pm behind this desk. I go home, sort out my ironing, cooking, bills etc then settle down to do three hours of ATPL self study which I post off next morning when I return to work. Then when the weekend comes around I drive 50 miles to fly as a volunteer unpaid flying instructor for the Air Cadets - we start at dawn and finish at dusk. Whilst not teaching, cleaning aircraft, being a fireman, running the line or doing paperwork I squeeze in 8 hours of ATPL study in preperation for the week ahead. Whilst doing all of this I have to keep my girlfriend happy, visit my Nan and keep in touch with my mates. Please don't lecture me on working hard to fly. When I pass all my exams first time then my GFT and then my IR, I (like all self improvers), will have achieved a damn sight more than someone who has nothing else to do all day but focus on their training. But do you know what? I've never been happier mate so good luck to you - keep smiling WWW!
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I never doubted you www, as I said there is a lot of talent out there, spoilt by a few idiots, for example I heard over the R/T once at a small airfield as Flying Instructor f..ing and blinding at his student over a stuck R/T switch...CRM environment. If you can do these courses great...over a day or two I bet- it's not the same as being in built into you.
However, I wish you all the best and I hope to join you on the flight deck at some point- I would never wish any one not getting a job they want. There are a few here that have done it as a fly on the wall decision and being paid to do it- but there are us who are commited- and we will make it in the end- and when we do i'll buy you a beer!
Over and out!
However, I wish you all the best and I hope to join you on the flight deck at some point- I would never wish any one not getting a job they want. There are a few here that have done it as a fly on the wall decision and being paid to do it- but there are us who are commited- and we will make it in the end- and when we do i'll buy you a beer!
Over and out!
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Hopefully injecting a little controversy....
Looks like it'll soon again be like 1988, i.e. as has often since been quoted as a saying attributable to a certain chief pilot of the time, "If a monkey walked in here with a CPL/IR I'd give it a job starting right now !". Hopefully it soon won't matter how you did it (509==SI==Military) so long as you're ducks are all in a row and you're ready to go.
I'll bet that if the background of a chief pilot is military then they'll choose miltary pilots above all else.
Likewise for chief pilots of the 509 and SelfImprover pursuasion. We're all biased !
Bottom line is that after a few thousand hour you can't tell the difference.
On the subject of CRM/LOFT. I did a CRM/LOFT course because one airline required it done before they'd even send me an application form.
But there again, I went for an interview with another airline and the interviewing pilot said, "Oh I see you've done a CRM/LOFT course. Did you pay for it yourself ? Personally I think it's a complete waste of time and money - you can't teach that stuff in the time they give it and you really only learn it on the job (sic)".
It's not even as if you have to pass anything, you just turn up, do it and get the certificate - go figure.
I hope it's only the very naive who don't realise the schools are in the business of making £$£$£$£. There is NO philanthropic motive behind their brief.
Under the JARs this CRM/LOFT stuff will be compulsory but I wonder how much influence the 'schools' have exerted in the proposals - I'll doubt that they were fighting against any extra requirements - and I'm quitely confident that OATS et al were well represented on the JAR review / implementation board(s) !
Whilst a structured modular approach may be of benefit to many, the loss of the self-improver route is a tragedy who's only beneficiary are the approved schools. If we'd only had a voice, as they did.
As to handling emergencies. I know some blokes who've had none, ever ! So who can say how they'd react when it happens.
I was once in an aircraft ( at night in a single ) when the engine started to run really (really !!!) rough. The other guy, who had many more hours then myself, just froze, terrified, on the controls; So who can say how people will react until they're faced with a problem.
And as another example, an aquaintance was doing his GFT with CAAFU and during the engine failure he headed straight for the trees ! So the man from CAAFU did the failure again. Once more he headed for the trees. Back on the ground the CAAFU guy fails him but does ask what he thought he was doing heading for the trees ? "Well it's like this. I've had 3 real engine failures to date. The first two times I had nothing but trees to land in, so I put it down in the tree tops and I walked / climbed away from both. But the last time I had a great big field but after touch down it flipped A.O.T and I was hospitalised. I vowed to select the trees every time !"
This was experience talking !
The CAAFU guy couldn't argue with that and passed him.
Why oh why don't some airlines get their act together and have a structured policy for bringing people on line ?
I mean, put old grey beards in with the newbees in a turbo-prop (low-level/Wx/Ice) to affect a skills transfer before a guaranteed transfer in, say, two years to a jet. And why oh why don't some wannabees set their flying aspirations a little lower and realise that some useful experience is to be gained from this kind of flying, rather than hoping straight in to a scarebus.
Finally, experience (and P1 time) is King !
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Reading all the pieces above, I couldn't find any that didn't make sense. I have given LOFTs, IOE and checkrides to people with varied backgrounds - heavy, jet, prop etc. Very few were not aware of crm and fewer still didn't claim that they had a good handle on it. But just as with flying skills and any other aspect of being a pilot, it was the application of the knowledge that mattered. Whatever your experience you're going to come across the good and bad, the important thing is not to categorize people by background because you'll be proven wrong at some stage along the way. Many of you in the discussion seem to agree on principle but disagree on points - everybody protecting their turf?
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Everybody will protect their turf because whichever way they decide to go about it,they all want the basic licence.Whether you consider yourself a good,bad or average pilot,I assume everybody thinks they are competent enough to do a professional job at the end of the day.If you are able to do a 509 course you will get a licence quicker but then not have sufficient hours to get a job but on the self-improver route you may miss the boat.Each way has it's pros and cons.The point is that this is wannabe page and we all want to be in a big Boeing or Airbus ASAP earning good money for a good airline.How each individual does that is irrelevant as long as they reach their goal.
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I have been watching the development of this thread with interest and would like to offer the following observation:
I am currently at Cabair on one of those evil/superb (delete as your view dictates
509 courses, partly sponsored by Airtours. I will tell you now that Airtours do not think we are suitable for the right hand seat of an Airbus or 757, when we graduate with our nice shiny frozen ATPL and 220 hours.
I am not sure if it is common knowledge or not, but Airtours used to offer sponsorships to employees already working within the company. It was a nice deal All course fees paid for, all accomodation etc and on top of that, £15,000 a year salary.
However, when they placed their newly trained person into a 757, (s)he sat there, slack-jawed, for the best part of a year wondering what the heck was going on. The captains didn't like it, the cadets didn't like it and the company didn't like it. End of sponsorship deal.
The deal now, is that we get sent to a regional turbo-prop operator for 2 years (usually Manx but could be BRA if they retain their props). When we have around 1500 hours and a full ATPL, they take us back for the Jet Orientation and Type Rating.
I am not suggesting for a minute that TP operation is easier than jet, but Airtours have found that the generally slower pace of the flying, coupled with lots of hands-on sectors and IFR flying means fewer failures. In fact, I don't think they've chopped anyone who has been through this route.
All the other airlines at Cabair who operate jets - Air200, Caledionian, and BA, stick their cadets straight into a 757 or 737. It is interesting to see that the current chop rate on the BA JOC is around one in three or four. And these are people who passed the BA apts, fit the profile and are highly motivated.
Airtours have a lot of experience of 509 courses - they've had cadets at Prestwick, Oxford and Cabair - and they don't think we're good enough for jets on graduation. That's from an operator.
Obviously, some people can and do make the grade, but it was interesting to see some of the comments about low-hour FOs from people here.
On a different note, BA are definitely looking to pick up self-sponsored grads from Cabair who, in their opinion, make the grade. There's a letter in the crew room here, from BA, asking Cabair to pass them names of people who they think would be suitable. I don't know if anyone has been passed to BA, but I might ask around and find out I assume they are doing the same at Oxford. I agree though, it's a bit cheeky for Oxford to give the impression that if you sign up with 'em, you stand a good chance. They don't exactly _say_ that, but that's the idea you get from the advert !!
Best of Luck
I am currently at Cabair on one of those evil/superb (delete as your view dictates
509 courses, partly sponsored by Airtours. I will tell you now that Airtours do not think we are suitable for the right hand seat of an Airbus or 757, when we graduate with our nice shiny frozen ATPL and 220 hours.I am not sure if it is common knowledge or not, but Airtours used to offer sponsorships to employees already working within the company. It was a nice deal
All course fees paid for, all accomodation etc and on top of that, £15,000 a year salary. However, when they placed their newly trained person into a 757, (s)he sat there, slack-jawed, for the best part of a year wondering what the heck was going on. The captains didn't like it, the cadets didn't like it and the company didn't like it. End of sponsorship deal.
The deal now, is that we get sent to a regional turbo-prop operator for 2 years (usually Manx but could be BRA if they retain their props). When we have around 1500 hours and a full ATPL, they take us back for the Jet Orientation and Type Rating.
I am not suggesting for a minute that TP operation is easier than jet, but Airtours have found that the generally slower pace of the flying, coupled with lots of hands-on sectors and IFR flying means fewer failures. In fact, I don't think they've chopped anyone who has been through this route.
All the other airlines at Cabair who operate jets - Air200, Caledionian, and BA, stick their cadets straight into a 757 or 737. It is interesting to see that the current chop rate on the BA JOC is around one in three or four. And these are people who passed the BA apts, fit the profile and are highly motivated.
Airtours have a lot of experience of 509 courses - they've had cadets at Prestwick, Oxford and Cabair - and they don't think we're good enough for jets on graduation. That's from an operator.
Obviously, some people can and do make the grade, but it was interesting to see some of the comments about low-hour FOs from people here.
On a different note, BA are definitely looking to pick up self-sponsored grads from Cabair who, in their opinion, make the grade. There's a letter in the crew room here, from BA, asking Cabair to pass them names of people who they think would be suitable. I don't know if anyone has been passed to BA, but I might ask around and find out
I assume they are doing the same at Oxford. I agree though, it's a bit cheeky for Oxford to give the impression that if you sign up with 'em, you stand a good chance. They don't exactly _say_ that, but that's the idea you get from the advert !!Best of Luck
