Good for Pooleys
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2001
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Good for Pooleys
Somehow i managed to lose a screw off my CRP5.
Just phoned them to see if you can get spares.
The reply was "no problem luv i will stick some in the post free of charge"
Thumbs up for service Pooleys
MJ
Just phoned them to see if you can get spares.
The reply was "no problem luv i will stick some in the post free of charge"
Thumbs up for service Pooleys
MJ
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 3
From: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Yep ... it's good to see good old Pooleys dishing out the screws - oh wait a minute, it's a noble tradition for them, they've been screwing trainee pilots for years 
I mean what can it cost to make those CRP5's? 10 pence perhaps? At the end of the day they are two small plastic discs, no different in quality to any other plastic discs such as frisbees and Tazo's and various other things which are given away free with your breakfast cereal
My first CAR cost less than my sodding nav computer did. I'd love to hear a justification from them on this forum, how about it guys?
I mean what can it cost to make those CRP5's? 10 pence perhaps? At the end of the day they are two small plastic discs, no different in quality to any other plastic discs such as frisbees and Tazo's and various other things which are given away free with your breakfast cereal
My first CAR cost less than my sodding nav computer did. I'd love to hear a justification from them on this forum, how about it guys?
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Oxfordshire
Get real, Luke Sky Toddler. Have you ever been involved in any manufacturing industry? Firstly, Pooley's are probably still paying some form of intellectual copyright to Fred Dalton (of blessed memory) who actually invented (and, if he'd got any sense, patented) the first universally accepted nav computer. Secondly, they've improved it beyond all measure (along with their rivals, such as Aviat, Jeppesen and ARC). Most nav computers do distance, speed, and time, TAS from RAS (without compressibilty) and from Mach No, some elementary conversions, and that's about it. The CRP-5 does all of that, compressibilty correction, fuel conversions,SGs, True Altitude and Density Altitude. You may not use all of these in your line of business, but there are pilots out there who DO!
It's also incredibly accurate. For most calculations, it's accurate to about 3 parts in 1000. Are your fuel gauges that good? Is your fuel-flow integrator that good? Is your Doppler (or even your INS) that good? It's actually much much faster than a calculator for distance, speed, and time calculations, or fuel calculations, because you don't have to work out whether you need to multiply or divide by 60. That big black arrow does it all for you. If you don't believe that it's faster, you're probably not practised enough at using it quickly and slickly.
OK, you say, that's not the point. Your point is 'How can Pooley justify charging so much?'
I'm sorry, mate, but it's a bit of precision equipment. Manufacturing tolerances ARE important, or the whole thing turns to worms. Try doing a calculation such as "You have 2700 kilos to safe endurance at a fuel-flow rate of 2200 per hour". Then see how long it takes you in comparison using a calculator. Then do a percentage check of the accuracy from the CRP-5. I'll bet you'll find that it's within about 0.3%. That's about 13 seconds in 70 minutes. In this context, it equates to about 8 kg of fuel - in 70 minutes, for Christ's sake! I bet your gauges don't read to better that 50. You don't get that sort of precision engineering without damn fine quality control. And it costs money. Don't take my word for it. Ask any manufacturing or production engineer.
Paul Hickley
[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]
[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]
It's also incredibly accurate. For most calculations, it's accurate to about 3 parts in 1000. Are your fuel gauges that good? Is your fuel-flow integrator that good? Is your Doppler (or even your INS) that good? It's actually much much faster than a calculator for distance, speed, and time calculations, or fuel calculations, because you don't have to work out whether you need to multiply or divide by 60. That big black arrow does it all for you. If you don't believe that it's faster, you're probably not practised enough at using it quickly and slickly.
OK, you say, that's not the point. Your point is 'How can Pooley justify charging so much?'
I'm sorry, mate, but it's a bit of precision equipment. Manufacturing tolerances ARE important, or the whole thing turns to worms. Try doing a calculation such as "You have 2700 kilos to safe endurance at a fuel-flow rate of 2200 per hour". Then see how long it takes you in comparison using a calculator. Then do a percentage check of the accuracy from the CRP-5. I'll bet you'll find that it's within about 0.3%. That's about 13 seconds in 70 minutes. In this context, it equates to about 8 kg of fuel - in 70 minutes, for Christ's sake! I bet your gauges don't read to better that 50. You don't get that sort of precision engineering without damn fine quality control. And it costs money. Don't take my word for it. Ask any manufacturing or production engineer.
Paul Hickley
[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]
[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2001
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Also to add to the above point about the quality control.
Because of the numbers produced they won't be able to take advantage of economies of scale. Although the printing parts will be done in bulk. It wouldn't suprise me if there is alot of human input to the assembly of the computer.
I agree materials will be low <5 quid
quality printing will be at least another 5 quid
Cutting and drilling 10mins
Assembly another 10mins
finishing 10 mins
qa afterwards 10 mins
So you have 40mins man time.
Normal workshop time in a fabrication shop is @ 60-75 quid an hour.
So i recon the production cost will be about 50 quid, normal mark up is at least 50% so after you take into account the vat its not that bad. But why there is a difference between crp1 and 5 is only a marketing thing the production cost must be nearly the same.
And lets face it if you look after it you will only need one in your career.
MJ
Because of the numbers produced they won't be able to take advantage of economies of scale. Although the printing parts will be done in bulk. It wouldn't suprise me if there is alot of human input to the assembly of the computer.
I agree materials will be low <5 quid
quality printing will be at least another 5 quid
Cutting and drilling 10mins
Assembly another 10mins
finishing 10 mins
qa afterwards 10 mins
So you have 40mins man time.
Normal workshop time in a fabrication shop is @ 60-75 quid an hour.
So i recon the production cost will be about 50 quid, normal mark up is at least 50% so after you take into account the vat its not that bad. But why there is a difference between crp1 and 5 is only a marketing thing the production cost must be nearly the same.
And lets face it if you look after it you will only need one in your career.
MJ
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,692
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From: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
The reason there is a difference between the two prices mad-jock is a little thing that's feature on the news recently called RIP OFF BRITAIN!!
Anyway thanks for putting me in my place there Paul and Murray I may have had my tongue right in cheek when I compared them to frisbees, but you guys' cost justification is just as much b******ks as I've seen since my JAR ATPL writtens.
All I would like is one reason as to why they don't cost anywhere near that much when they're made by any other manufacturer anywhere else on earth!
To start with, why don't we do a comparison of the Pooleys CRP5 to the top model of Jeppesen manual computer, which is also admirably equipped to cope with high speed flight, compressibility, density alt, SG (woop de doo, an SG mark, I bet that cost a fortune!!) and all the other things that you seem to think Pooleys have a monopoly on. It's also made of brushed aluminium which by anyone's standards must cost a damn sight more in raw materials and manufacturing costs than any plastic equivalent. And yet it comes in at $24.95 on most US pilot supply websites (pilotmall, avmart, pilotsupplies.com etc). That's about 17 quid at the current rate of exchange. The plastic Jeppesen student computer is equivalent in every functional aspect to the Pooleys student CRP1, except it only comes in at $10.95 or 7 quid!!!
That's my major problem, I don't query the quality of the product, although I prefer metal ones, but why so goddam expensive?
(And before you launch into another stern lecture on how wonderful nav computers are and how many things they can do, I have taught ground school classes on both CPL navigation and IFR instruments and nav aids in New Zealand and am in fact quite familiar with most principles of usage of that black arrow, thanks).
Anyway thanks for putting me in my place there Paul and Murray
I may have had my tongue right in cheek when I compared them to frisbees, but you guys' cost justification is just as much b******ks as I've seen since my JAR ATPL writtens.All I would like is one reason as to why they don't cost anywhere near that much when they're made by any other manufacturer anywhere else on earth!
To start with, why don't we do a comparison of the Pooleys CRP5 to the top model of Jeppesen manual computer, which is also admirably equipped to cope with high speed flight, compressibility, density alt, SG (woop de doo, an SG mark, I bet that cost a fortune!!) and all the other things that you seem to think Pooleys have a monopoly on. It's also made of brushed aluminium which by anyone's standards must cost a damn sight more in raw materials and manufacturing costs than any plastic equivalent. And yet it comes in at $24.95 on most US pilot supply websites (pilotmall, avmart, pilotsupplies.com etc). That's about 17 quid at the current rate of exchange. The plastic Jeppesen student computer is equivalent in every functional aspect to the Pooleys student CRP1, except it only comes in at $10.95 or 7 quid!!!
That's my major problem, I don't query the quality of the product, although I prefer metal ones, but why so goddam expensive?
(And before you launch into another stern lecture on how wonderful nav computers are and how many things they can do, I have taught ground school classes on both CPL navigation and IFR instruments and nav aids in New Zealand and am in fact quite familiar with most principles of usage of that black arrow, thanks).
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Just digressing slightly but still concerned with the CRP5. The JAA questions concerning density reduction/increase with change of temperature are based on 4% change of density with a 10°C deviation from ISA. Students who use the CRP5 will not get the correct answer as the density corrections are based on 3.65% per 10°C.
The CRP5 is also of great use in Human Factors. After all what girl would look at a guy if he was not proficient in use of said weapon, and if she was not impressed by your skill with it then she is certainly not the girl for you.
The CRP5 is also of great use in Human Factors. After all what girl would look at a guy if he was not proficient in use of said weapon, and if she was not impressed by your skill with it then she is certainly not the girl for you.
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Cranfield
Thank you to all those in support of the CRP-5 - we appreciate your comments.
An invitation to Luke Sky Toddler.
Please phone us on 01234 750677 or email me back - Pooleys would very much like you to be our guest for the day and then we'll be able to show you exactly how many indiviual processes go to make the CRP-5 (some 133 at the last count). We could of course send them out to be made in somewhere like China - but then the quality just wouldn't be the same.
The invitation stands and should Luke Sky Toddler take up our offer we'll keep you all posted.... (maybe some others would like to come to take a look around our factory based at Cranfield at the same time)?? Anyone's welcome - we have no secrets.
Bob Pooley
An invitation to Luke Sky Toddler.
Please phone us on 01234 750677 or email me back - Pooleys would very much like you to be our guest for the day and then we'll be able to show you exactly how many indiviual processes go to make the CRP-5 (some 133 at the last count). We could of course send them out to be made in somewhere like China - but then the quality just wouldn't be the same.
The invitation stands and should Luke Sky Toddler take up our offer we'll keep you all posted.... (maybe some others would like to come to take a look around our factory based at Cranfield at the same time)?? Anyone's welcome - we have no secrets.
Bob Pooley
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: UK
Good call Jan.
Pooleys have done a huge amount over the years to support UK light aviation. Just look at what you get for £30 a year in your flight guide, not to mention their support for many events of all-sorts.
No their kit isn't cheap, neither is it poor quality. If they are making a reasonable profit - good; if Pooleys weren't making a good enough profit to life well from we wouldn't have the benefit of their services. I also know from long experience that they listen to, and work with, their customers.
Luke Skytoddler, I have no idea what you do for a living. But I'll bet you would do something else if your customers expected everything done at absolute minimum profit, so that you couldn't live comfortably from the proceeds?
G
Pooleys have done a huge amount over the years to support UK light aviation. Just look at what you get for £30 a year in your flight guide, not to mention their support for many events of all-sorts.
No their kit isn't cheap, neither is it poor quality. If they are making a reasonable profit - good; if Pooleys weren't making a good enough profit to life well from we wouldn't have the benefit of their services. I also know from long experience that they listen to, and work with, their customers.
Luke Skytoddler, I have no idea what you do for a living. But I'll bet you would do something else if your customers expected everything done at absolute minimum profit, so that you couldn't live comfortably from the proceeds?
G
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Ah me very dear friend Bob Pooley. Trust you are well and still doing good for aviation mate. Where would we be in the UK without a Pooley of some kind. You have done stirling work Bob, and you should have been given a gong by now for services to aviation.
I have a Pooley diary going back as far as 1969 and I have kept them all! Let alone other stuff.
But we will give you our own gong. A much loved PPRuNe badge.
Mail me mate, you won't know me till I tell you - then surprise.
In the meantime thanks for looking after our
wannabes.
PPRuNe Pop
Administrator
[email protected]
I have a Pooley diary going back as far as 1969 and I have kept them all! Let alone other stuff.
But we will give you our own gong. A much loved PPRuNe badge.
Mail me mate, you won't know me till I tell you - then surprise.
In the meantime thanks for looking after our
wannabes.
PPRuNe Pop
Administrator
[email protected]
I say there boy
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,065
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From: Somewhere
Genghis,
From previous posts I understand that Luke is an instructor.
"your customers expect everything done at absolute minimum profit, so that you can't live comfortably from the proceeds"
I think you've actually described rather well the lot of a PPL instructor
Just an observation - not meant to be taken the wrong way.
cheers!
foggy.
From previous posts I understand that Luke is an instructor.
"your customers expect everything done at absolute minimum profit, so that you can't live comfortably from the proceeds"
I think you've actually described rather well the lot of a PPL instructor
Just an observation - not meant to be taken the wrong way.
cheers!
foggy.
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,692
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From: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Alright, fair enough, I asked for a justification on the forum and I got one
Apologies to all concerned, since I'm obviously in the minority here. It seems the general consensus among PPRuNers is that the CRP-5 is indeed the Rolls-Royce of nav computers, and I don't doubt for a second Mr Pooley your claim that to make one requires skilled engineering and many different processes. (I don't share your conviction that the Chinese are so incapable of making equally high quality products but that's another issue is it not ...)
However, as has also been pointed out, I am an instructor and as such I am positioned right at the sharp end of the economics of the flight training business in this country. Now without casting any aspersions on the quality of the product, I would just like to comment that I (and many other instructors I know) no longer recommend to my students that they buy a Pooley's nav computer, the simple reason being that a product from one of the rival brands will do everything they want or need and cost a good £50 less. To me that £50 would be better off spent on another half hour's flying, which in my opinion will be of greater benefit to the student than the extra minute-fraction-of-a-degree of precision in their nav computer.
I hope you understand my point of view, at the end of the day we're both business people interested in giving our customers the best value for money are we not? I would genuinely welcome a further exchange of views with you Mr Pooley, if you can convince me as to why I should return to the Pooley's fold or why your products represent better value, then I'm all ears.
Apologies to all concerned, since I'm obviously in the minority here. It seems the general consensus among PPRuNers is that the CRP-5 is indeed the Rolls-Royce of nav computers, and I don't doubt for a second Mr Pooley your claim that to make one requires skilled engineering and many different processes. (I don't share your conviction that the Chinese are so incapable of making equally high quality products but that's another issue is it not ...)
However, as has also been pointed out, I am an instructor and as such I am positioned right at the sharp end of the economics of the flight training business in this country. Now without casting any aspersions on the quality of the product, I would just like to comment that I (and many other instructors I know) no longer recommend to my students that they buy a Pooley's nav computer, the simple reason being that a product from one of the rival brands will do everything they want or need and cost a good £50 less. To me that £50 would be better off spent on another half hour's flying, which in my opinion will be of greater benefit to the student than the extra minute-fraction-of-a-degree of precision in their nav computer.
I hope you understand my point of view, at the end of the day we're both business people interested in giving our customers the best value for money are we not? I would genuinely welcome a further exchange of views with you Mr Pooley, if you can convince me as to why I should return to the Pooley's fold or why your products represent better value, then I'm all ears.
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,692
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From: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
No, FK, I was a Flightline man (showing my age now!!) before they were bought out by the evil empire ... I did a few short weeks in a Massey uniform early in '98 before leaving in disgust and moving to Tauranga to help set up BOP Flight Centre. I never did get to have a Massey number of my own anyway *sniff*
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
Well I would have to agree with the direction of the thread. At last count I had 4 flight computers. The first was the Jeppesen aluminium job mentioned earlier, issued on my FAA PPL, the next two differently-sized service-issue. Finally with my ATPL course came the CRP-5.
It is no coincidence that I use the CRP-5, and not solely because our students use them or that the ATPL exams I am teaching for are written using them to find answers. It is a good instrument, better than any of the others I have.
What concerns me about price is how much the school must have had to pay for the big CRP-5 I use at the front of the class for teaching. It has a circular slide rule about two feet across, with a slide in proportion! It is a fully-working CRP-5, but I am not sure the CAA would allow it in an exam
It is no coincidence that I use the CRP-5, and not solely because our students use them or that the ATPL exams I am teaching for are written using them to find answers. It is a good instrument, better than any of the others I have.
What concerns me about price is how much the school must have had to pay for the big CRP-5 I use at the front of the class for teaching. It has a circular slide rule about two feet across, with a slide in proportion! It is a fully-working CRP-5, but I am not sure the CAA would allow it in an exam
