CPL Navigation Advice

[gwizzaviatior]

Hello Flyers,

I'd like to get some of your thoughts and any advice on the CPL course which I am doing at the moment. Basically, I am 21 of 25 hours into my SE CPL. Thanks to the schools only aircraft going tech, instructor absence and British weather it has been taking 3 months, lots of starting and stopping.

Anyhow, im happy with most of the stuff we have done with the course, however am having some serious issues with the dead reckoning aspect. To be totally honest, my time building in the US was quite reliant on using the GPS and the skills vanished. 5 hours into the dead reckoning/navigation part on the CPL, and its still not great-not even close to test ready. I can foresee the number of hours I will probably require going much over the minimum 25 hours, and as you can imagine money seems to flow away like money. I did my PPL in Africa a couple of years ago, where the ground features are totally different, and haven't really done much VFR flight using dead reckoning since then.

The instructor at the moment I have is leaving at the end of the month(only 1 of 2 CPL instructors at the school), and in all honesty doesn't really seem to care, and a few lessons with a PPL teacher has dramatically improved my skills. I have refreshed/developed more of my dead reckoning skills with this PPL instructor then I did with theh CPL instructor who likes to shout and be rather negative in a flight. Right now I don't quite fancy spending anymore time/money on the CPL instructor where I don't feel im gonna learn much - however given the guy is leaving in a few weeks, there is certainly indirect pressure to get it done with him.
So I ask you the following, on which one you would do, and your thoughts on the following:

1. Did anyone have a similar issue with their CPL? How many overs did you go over?
2. Would you recommend flying with the "better" PPL instructors (less costly a/c higher and also instructor rate, until the skills are back onto standard, or would you stick with the current CPL instructor who is leaving, and isn't that great?
3. An idea is also to go straight to my IR where flying skills and coming back to the CPL at a later point - hopefully where the multi tasking is a bit easier.

I certainly realise where I could have made things easier with my hour building, but things are the way they are, and now I have to create a plan to get things sorted out

Any thoughts and inputs are appreciated.

[rmcb]

I had similar issues with the nav.; I appreciate how this can gnaw away at you, erode your confidence. The pillock ticking beside you with useful comments like 'I thought you had a PPL' (having just performed splendid gliding turns, instrument turns, partial panel and limited panel stuff) just goes to show what arses there can be teaching.

However, there are good'uns. They are usually the old ones who brief properly before and after the flight with constructive criticism.

The best advice for DR given by this old buggah is 'trust your clock'. If you follow your planned timings and hold a course (cross referenced regularly with your standby compass) then provided the wind isn't too far off that forecast all your waypoints will be within twenty degress off the nose.

Take your GPS to the pawnbroker until you have completed your IR - it is but another thing to learn and is of no use while training (in my opinion) and is not allowed at test.

I wouldn't recommend the IR route as a way around your problem - DR doesn't come into it, so you are still left with the initial problem!

Muscle your way past pillocks. You will get there maybe slightly over hours, but not by much. Try some solo navs in quiet Class G if you have any nearby. Best of luck.

[Bealzebub]

Thanks to the schools only aircraft going tech

instructor absence

lots of starting and stopping.

The instructor at the moment I have is leaving at the end of the month

doesn't really seem to care

theh CPL instructor who likes to shout and be rather negative in a flight

I don't quite fancy spending anymore time/money on the CPL instructor where I don't feel im gonna learn much

there is certainly indirect pressure to get it done with him.

So what made you sign up with this "school" in the first place? It is hard to suggest something that isn't obvious, but if what you say is accurate, then you really should write this whole experience off and find somewhere that is professional and reputable.

I don't want to be unkind, but this advice is free so I don't really feel the need to be anything other than forthright, but what are you thinking?

Without quoting any more of what you have stated, it sounds as if you have wasted a lot of time making holes in the sky. Presumably with the popular notion that such time, a few exams, and the cheapest school in town, are all that is seperating you from a nice idea, to the right hand seat of a Boeing 737!

Minimum experience is just that, minimum! It is the level that somebody of reasonably good competence, ability, recency and progression might be expected to achieve if everything is going in their favour. It is not the average benchmark target.

You may not want to hear this, but it sounds like you have made some very poor choices and done very little realistic homework. If you are serious about correcting this, I suggest you strip this back to the bone, approach some recommended, professional and reputable flying schools and discuss your history, proficiency level and expectations with them, and see what they say. Put aside any notion that this will be cheap. By the sound of it you have already travelled a long way down that cul-de-sac.

[gwizzaviatior]

rmcb: Cheers for sharing your experiences, I think some more constructive practice in the DR with the areas as propsed might be an idea by myself is probably the best way forward. As you said, just gotta continue to muscle myself forward.

Bealzebub: I chose this school based on the fact that a couple of my mates went there as well did generally ok, and the school is relatively near my house. It was an informed decision, and I assure you the CPL cost here is no cheaper then most other places around the UK. That never came into it. But the predicament is my own and now I need to recitfy it. You say "minimum" of 25 hours, however I am interested in seeing what the "average" benchmark is?
I'll take on board your comments regards moving elsewhere and speaking to some flight schools about this, but as I said, it was an informed decision based on people I knew studying there.

Any other peoples experience on the DR part of the CPL is welcomed.

[The African Dude]

Can I echo the advice of rmcb?

Calculate your headings with the forecast wind, then at the start of each nav leg hold that heading (on an aligned DI!) until you reach your pre-planned halfway fix or quarterway fix or... other fix.

I'm not sure what routine your instructor gave you after turning, but as part of mine came Time - check the clock has reset and is running (not just paused!!) and ask yourself how long to the next event. Answer should normally be 6-8 mins until a fix of some description.

So you know how long you have to do a cruise check now, get on with it, holding your heading accurately, and start looking for your fix about 3 mins in advance of arrival. As rmcb said, it'll be there somewhere within 20 degrees of the nose.

Then work out any tracking error, work out why there's an error (DI aligned or is it wind?) work out the appropriate correction using 1:60 rule if it's wind and there's no hurry to get back on to track due airspace etc., apply it abeam your fix and then... repeat!

Unless the wind has tripled in strength and is coming from the opposite direction, you can't go far wrong with this method. The thing to remember is that, with zero changes to the wind, and holding an accurate heading, 10 times out of 10 you will arrive overhead your fix at the time you expect. This is mathematical fact. So trust your clock and keep your DI aligned with your cruise checks!

[gwizzaviatior]

African dude and RMCB, cheers for the tips. I went up with another instructor from another school and implemented your tips along with getting rid of the map at times to force me to look outside more often (apparently I was doing something called "feature crawling") and flew by trusting the heading and time. Seems to have improved massively. Think i'll revert back to the previous instructor and see how that goes.
Thanks alot

[Piltdown Man]

I was honest of you to admit that you were using the GPS to nav. They really are bloody useless (verging on dangerous) things unless you can do DR nav. Yup time and heading should yield results as will practice with mental maths so you can quickly calculate headings, time and fuel etc. in flight. And when you are bombing along to your next turnpoint, have a good squizz on your chart before you get there and identify the BIG features which will be around you. Try not to use the crossroads on the little dirt track to Lower Piddlington.

[mcgoo]

I know you won't want to hear it but why did you waste all your hour building following the GPS when most people use it to prepare for the CPL, improving handling skills and nav etc, maybe the instructors are shouting at you in frustration because you have wasted hours burning holes in the sky learning nothing, just a thought!

[BoeingDreamer]

I have to echo Mcgoo's remarks, I did have a GPS during hour building, but would only look at it to give myself a backup for my dead reckoning. The GPS do sometimes fail, mine did/loss of signal, what would you have done then? Pan Pan call?

Anyway the minimum hours means nothing, if you have spent 3 months due to various problems, be certain you will go over hours, because you have not got sufficient continuity.

If you think it is loosing much money now, wait until you go over hours on your IR, burning £380 an hour, or being made to hold for 20 - 30 minutes during your IFR approaches.

You should never calculate to complete within minimum hours, chances are that you are like most an average student, who will need more then minimum hours.

The awful truth that CPL is not really much more then an advanced PPL, regarding navigation skills you should have the basics trough your PPL, that's why you was supposed to do your hour building, to build on your PPL skills.

The best way, at least with proper schools, book yourself in for an intensive few days/week, 2 lessons a day. Plan navs and do diversions en-route, we have all screwed up our Navs also during CPL, it is just to bottle down, debrief yourself where it went wrong.

Make a proper plan, if you need add a few more way-points, use the time, and make sure your keep your planned headings, and monitor the wind correction.

If all the rest is good, then 4 hours with Nav might be enough, but if you spend a few more hours, just to make sure you pass first time, then this is the best.
When you set yourself on your initial heading, find a feature far ahead, and keep the heading be monitoring that feature, when you get closer find a new one ahead of you. Just keep logging way-point times, you will be surprised to discover as long as you have corrected and got the right GS, that you will most likely be on top of your way-point within 1 - 2 minutes every time.

[McBruce]

When I did my PPL/CPL, I had various instructors, some were strict on certain navigational techniques, some wern't. In the end my technique was working out max drift then combining this with the clock code rule. Its been a while so forgive me if I make a few minor errors, if the wind is greater than 60 degrees from the tail/nose, apply full max drift into wind. If its 30 degrees, apply half max drift error, just applying the clock code percentage based on the angle between track required/wind. Same applied to work out tailwind/headwind. It didn't require the wizzwheel or any fancy thinking. Your planning could be done in 2 mins and its very useful for diversions. Off track was simple, for every mile off track, turn 25 degrees, in the direction required, fly 1 min for 1 mile off track. Errors in your ETA was negliable and could be updated at a half way point, or quarter point in the remaining part of the route.

At the end of the day, my calculations were based on a clock code rule, the wind data wasn't entirely accurate. I knew my max drift based on a forecasted wind speed, it could be stronger or less, so getting a percentage calculation didn't require precision but it would send me approximately in the correct direction, hopefully! If the wind was 20 degrees off from the track, then using the clode code would be 2/5s of max drift to apply to your heading into wind. which is almost a half, so I just used half max drift and made any corrections at a timing point. Relaxed navigation!! Too many people get stressed out over exact headings to fly.

One of my instructor used to make me fly without the map, until I reached a pre-calculated timing point (normally 3-4 per leg). Then I would be allowed the map, fix my position, then apply any necessary correction. It was great for building up conifdence. just don't become fixated on the map.

[gwizzaviatior]

mcbruce: cheers for the post. I flew today with my instructor, discussed properly what we were going to do, and things were an improvement since last time. Put the map away for a while and focused on what was going on aound us. Also, used the clock method this time - previously had been memorising sine functions of the different angles.

The map fixating was definately an issue, and spending too much time trying to do calculations when getting the ETAs. Hopefully the skills should sharpen up quickly.

Boeing dreamer: Thanks for the points as well. With great weather in the UK at the moment with good VIS, selecting a point and flying to that reference certainly helped.

Just out of curiosity McBrunce and Boeing dream, where did you guys do your hour building (UK or elsewhere) and was that mostly navigating using DR and totally ridding yourself of GPS?
Cheers

[McBruce]

Qwizz, I done all of my training in the UK, PPL and hour building was done in my home country within the UK, so I was very familiar with the area. Although about 50% of my hour bulding was all DR/plogs and I pushed the boundaries and took the aircraft on long legs to unfamiliar locations, some to different countries, my largest being 1500nm round trip. Navigating in the UK on a larger scale is pretty simple. Its a north/south orientated Island. The coast is never too far away. Its the compact nature of the Island thats the challenge with many airports, compressed areas of high density VFR traffic and many ATC zones, but its easy with good planning.

I done my CPL/IR in the south of England, I didn't know the area, so my CPL navigation was based on DR. My hour building was always with a map, I knew I had to develope the skills, not having a GPS forces your hand.

Using the clock code is much more relaxed than memorising sine functions. Try making a plog just using maxdrift/clock code technique, then do the same plog with a wizzwheel, you will find they are remarkably the same. The difference being one took about a minute to do, the other 10mins and as said before, you can easily apply this in flight when your fully comfortable with it.

Even with your experience, a few flights using the techniques that you are most comfortable with will breed confidence. In a few flights time you will wonder what all the fuss was about!

[Piltdown Man]

Use whatever makes sense. I was taught both but settled down with 0.5, 0.7 & 0.9 as the only numbers I had to remember when using the COS/SIN method. But as my maths was so rubbish, I turned the art of dead-reckoning into total random guessing. But I still passed, so there's hope for you yet.