Eagle Jet vs Ventum Air vs Ryanair
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Eagle Jet vs Ventum Air vs Ryanair
Hello fellow pilots,
after few years of unsuccessful job search with my frozen ATPL, have decided to buy type rating and potentially get some line experience as well.
Any advantages of disadvantages in choosing Eagle Jet or Ventum Air or Ryanair or Park Aviation? I have read the threads about them all but not sure what would make better employment opportunities at the end and keep the cost down at the same time?
I am aware of EasyJet ATP programme but friend of mine completed the scheme and was booted out after 6 months to free up the space for new arrivals so wont even try them.
Cheers,
J.S.
after few years of unsuccessful job search with my frozen ATPL, have decided to buy type rating and potentially get some line experience as well.
Any advantages of disadvantages in choosing Eagle Jet or Ventum Air or Ryanair or Park Aviation? I have read the threads about them all but not sure what would make better employment opportunities at the end and keep the cost down at the same time?
I am aware of EasyJet ATP programme but friend of mine completed the scheme and was booted out after 6 months to free up the space for new arrivals so wont even try them.
Cheers,
J.S.
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I will definitely not recommend you Ventum. They don't have Polish CAA certificate for TRTO or even for flight training (just for ground training). You can check that on Polish CAA website Urz?d Lotnictwa Cywilnego Beside that look how the CEO (or somebody like that) behaves: http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...tum-air-5.html
If you don't want to waste your money just go somewhere else
If you don't want to waste your money just go somewhere else
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Not sure how you can compare RyanAir with the rest of those sharks?
However not that Ryan Air is perfect, but seems to better option. But there seems to be a problem for us older guys to get assessment. I would take Ryan Air anytime ahead of the rest. But I have a feeling that they will not employ us over 40.
However not that Ryan Air is perfect, but seems to better option. But there seems to be a problem for us older guys to get assessment. I would take Ryan Air anytime ahead of the rest. But I have a feeling that they will not employ us over 40.
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I understand that some pilots might have lost the job and feel angry etc. But at least you had an aviation job. I spent about 60k on my training and not even an interview. If airlines were more fair, I would have been given at least one chance by now.
Fuel prices going up means small margins (hence they look for profit elsewhere). More computerised systems in the aircraft, so they are less dependent on the skill of the pilot and can afford to train newbies more quickly as simulators are getting cheaper etc. Thats why, I guess, they value airline related experiences more than raw flying experience. I got nearly 2500 hours, 700 on multi engine, finished training when airlines were booming and cycle was on the up, floodgates were open etc etc. But no job.
What other option is there?
Wait for better times. Well, times were the best in 2006/2007 but no offers back then and next cycle I will be 10 years older.
Build some experience first. I did. Flew different aircrafts, in various countries. Flew in Europe, Africa, USA, Asia etc.
But I have no regrets about flying aircrafts and spending 1000s of pounds so far, I enjoyed it.
Fuel prices going up means small margins (hence they look for profit elsewhere). More computerised systems in the aircraft, so they are less dependent on the skill of the pilot and can afford to train newbies more quickly as simulators are getting cheaper etc. Thats why, I guess, they value airline related experiences more than raw flying experience. I got nearly 2500 hours, 700 on multi engine, finished training when airlines were booming and cycle was on the up, floodgates were open etc etc. But no job.
What other option is there?
Wait for better times. Well, times were the best in 2006/2007 but no offers back then and next cycle I will be 10 years older.
Build some experience first. I did. Flew different aircrafts, in various countries. Flew in Europe, Africa, USA, Asia etc.
But I have no regrets about flying aircrafts and spending 1000s of pounds so far, I enjoyed it.
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Yes Ryan Air is the best of the worst you mentioned there, but what seems to be the case is that Ryan Air does not interview pilots in this age category.
Cefey, though seriously you must be either thick or I don't know what!
Find a job and build some hours, do you seriously think so many people would be complaining if there was jobs around to build hours. It is not even possible to get a proper decent instructor job!
There are instructors, that are amazing pilots, with 1500 - 2500 hours TT, who can NOT even get an interview. And they are not even type rated, so no reason for RYR or others not to take them. But not everyone wants to spend that money for the TR.
There will be a broad daylight soon for you wherever where you think you are, RYR is ONLY option just now, if you miss with them, I am afraid join a long row of pilots ready to bite your head of for any sniff of a job that comes around, regardless how big or small, there will be a 1000 looking to get that job straight away.
It is not enough to have loads of hours to get a job, you need more then luck.
For experienced pilots, with loads of hours on type, there are much work available, if they are willing to move around the globe, but it is not the demand for experienced pilots that effects us low timers, we are not even considered in the same category.
So when you talk to loads of pilots working for SAS or other medium or big companies, who probably have 6000 or more hours, for them it will seem the aviation business is booming, as they can more or less get around from one job to another with to much problem. But most of them just stay put if they are happy.
How many pilots did SAS have to lay-off, when the new retirement age was increased to 65, there was a war within and among the SAS pilots, as the younger ones was made to walk, while the older ones prolonged their career for another 5 years + getting full pension for these years. There was stories of fights within the company, where they younger ones tried to intimidate the older pilots to retire at 60!
Probably should just do as KAG and ignore you, but sometimes stupid comments get really annoying, specially when they seem to be repeated time after timer, again and again!
Cefey, though seriously you must be either thick or I don't know what!
Find a job and build some hours, do you seriously think so many people would be complaining if there was jobs around to build hours. It is not even possible to get a proper decent instructor job!
There are instructors, that are amazing pilots, with 1500 - 2500 hours TT, who can NOT even get an interview. And they are not even type rated, so no reason for RYR or others not to take them. But not everyone wants to spend that money for the TR.
There will be a broad daylight soon for you wherever where you think you are, RYR is ONLY option just now, if you miss with them, I am afraid join a long row of pilots ready to bite your head of for any sniff of a job that comes around, regardless how big or small, there will be a 1000 looking to get that job straight away.
It is not enough to have loads of hours to get a job, you need more then luck.
For experienced pilots, with loads of hours on type, there are much work available, if they are willing to move around the globe, but it is not the demand for experienced pilots that effects us low timers, we are not even considered in the same category.
So when you talk to loads of pilots working for SAS or other medium or big companies, who probably have 6000 or more hours, for them it will seem the aviation business is booming, as they can more or less get around from one job to another with to much problem. But most of them just stay put if they are happy.
How many pilots did SAS have to lay-off, when the new retirement age was increased to 65, there was a war within and among the SAS pilots, as the younger ones was made to walk, while the older ones prolonged their career for another 5 years + getting full pension for these years. There was stories of fights within the company, where they younger ones tried to intimidate the older pilots to retire at 60!
Probably should just do as KAG and ignore you, but sometimes stupid comments get really annoying, specially when they seem to be repeated time after timer, again and again!
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nobody are interested by a t/r, many guys with T/R and 0 hours on the aircraft are looking for a job.
best time will be in 2017, maybe 2019, and next crisis will maybe in 2010, forget about it.
what s the point to spend all this time and money?, just to get a flying job for 1 or 2 years!!!!????, and then lose it? it doesn't make any sense.
How many sucker this industry will put on their knees? thousand? maybe more?even the one flying big jets for low cost operators live in their van!
in 2 years in the USA, they will ask for 1500h,soon, program at over 100'000 $ with cpl, cfi, t/rating and line training. "copilot position guaranteed in 4 years?"popping everywhere in flight mags... and you finished working for 1200$ a month for a couple of years until your company kick you out!!!.
this is simply no sense. this market is a joke!
I am thinking to give up aviation. How long will you stay like that? staying at home? looking for job? are you over 40? pffft! you are waisting your life!
best time will be in 2017, maybe 2019, and next crisis will maybe in 2010, forget about it.
what s the point to spend all this time and money?, just to get a flying job for 1 or 2 years!!!!????, and then lose it? it doesn't make any sense.
How many sucker this industry will put on their knees? thousand? maybe more?even the one flying big jets for low cost operators live in their van!
in 2 years in the USA, they will ask for 1500h,soon, program at over 100'000 $ with cpl, cfi, t/rating and line training. "copilot position guaranteed in 4 years?"popping everywhere in flight mags... and you finished working for 1200$ a month for a couple of years until your company kick you out!!!.
this is simply no sense. this market is a joke!
I am thinking to give up aviation. How long will you stay like that? staying at home? looking for job? are you over 40? pffft! you are waisting your life!
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Problem is you want a decent job, with decent pay, without moving, not paying for TR
Well, the way market is right now, its not possible. You have to adjust your self to the way things work. Because there is a lot of people who is willing to move to Saudi Arabia, work almost for free, just to build hours.
I know couple instructors, who was working for free in US. Just to build hours.
One of them btw get into some airline in europe.
So yes, as I said earlier, its all down to you, what effort you put in and what you are willing to sacrifice.
If you spend 80k and 2-3 years on education and you are NOT willing to pay another 15k for TR to get a job and start working, then you are stupid. Cause the the way thing works now. Whether you like it or not.
You can whine ALL YOU WANT, but there WILL BE many people, who instead of waiting and working at factory, rather pay another 15k and start working in airliner, making good money, so they can pay their debt of and enjoy pilot life.
Well, the way market is right now, its not possible. You have to adjust your self to the way things work. Because there is a lot of people who is willing to move to Saudi Arabia, work almost for free, just to build hours.
I know couple instructors, who was working for free in US. Just to build hours.
One of them btw get into some airline in europe.
So yes, as I said earlier, its all down to you, what effort you put in and what you are willing to sacrifice.
If you spend 80k and 2-3 years on education and you are NOT willing to pay another 15k for TR to get a job and start working, then you are stupid. Cause the the way thing works now. Whether you like it or not.
You can whine ALL YOU WANT, but there WILL BE many people, who instead of waiting and working at factory, rather pay another 15k and start working in airliner, making good money, so they can pay their debt of and enjoy pilot life.
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Its funny how bunch of guys, trying to convince people its impossible to get a job. And from now on, no one, never ever (unless luck, about same as winning in lottery) will get a job.
And when someone comes and says: "Well, several friends of mine got their jobs. And its not more then 3-4 years, since they started on education"
But you still dont care. You still saying "nopp, its still impossible to get a job. Cause I cant!".
Or like KAG "I got a job. But that because its me. Rest of you - you will never get a job. No matter what you do"
Its like talking to the wall or something...
or someone retarded. You show him a ball and say "round" and he keep saying "triangle". 
PicMacs
What have MINE interviews have to do with J.S.? You do know we are different people? Like different nick-names - different people (in most cases). Well, at least you learned something new today! Good for you, buddy.
Rob
Yeah, Im not sure about that one
I think 5-10 guys on a forum know much better, then REAL pilots... that prob. how it is
After all, what do pilots know about getting a pilot job?
However, since KAG says, he got a job, but no one else, ever will, then its true.
Or some1else, who did enormous job, writing a CV (for all we know, a ****ty one as well) and let his outlook send out 700mails with that ****ty CV attached. And he still didn't got a job!!!! Can you believe it?! I cant!!
Well, if THAT didn't work, what on earth will get you a jobb then?! I guess we all doomed
Or like BoeingDreamer. Nice guy overall. But its seems like he dont know what he is up to.
First he says I should leasen to pilots here. They know what they talks about. Not like me, fresh out of school.
After talking to those SAS guys, he says, well, ACTUALLY, those pilots dont have a clue about getting a job. Dont leasen to them.
Then he say he did his outmost to get a job, like most other people out here and most people he know. And still no luck. So, NO JOBS FOR PILOTS!
Later on, he tells me, he is not willing to go to Africa or anything like that. Neither is he willing to pay for TR.
So out of that, hes "outmost" is to wait for a job opening in England and let outlook send out CVs... (Im still shocked its dont work!)
Its sad to see all of you guys, trying to convince young people, on giving up their dreams.
Tell people how things really are. Tell them, yes, if you want to have real chance to getting a job, most likely you have to move outside of europe.
And you may expect to pay for your own type. You have to work your ars off, for the first 2-3 years and get payed nothing for it!
Too bad its so few guys in here, who really want to HELP people and not only to boost their ego. And even those who want to help, they getting trolled so much (good job, KAG & co.), they just give up.
But im happy I got in touch with couple good guys, who helped me quite much. Especially zondaracer! Thank you very much!
And rest of you, learn from him, become a better person!
Cheer lads, stay positive, dont be arsholes!
And when someone comes and says: "Well, several friends of mine got their jobs. And its not more then 3-4 years, since they started on education"
But you still dont care. You still saying "nopp, its still impossible to get a job. Cause I cant!".
Or like KAG "I got a job. But that because its me. Rest of you - you will never get a job. No matter what you do"
Its like talking to the wall or something...
or someone retarded. You show him a ball and say "round" and he keep saying "triangle". PicMacs
What have MINE interviews have to do with J.S.? You do know we are different people? Like different nick-names - different people (in most cases). Well, at least you learned something new today! Good for you, buddy.
Rob
Yeah, Im not sure about that one
I think 5-10 guys on a forum know much better, then REAL pilots... that prob. how it isAfter all, what do pilots know about getting a pilot job?
However, since KAG says, he got a job, but no one else, ever will, then its true.
Or some1else, who did enormous job, writing a CV (for all we know, a ****ty one as well) and let his outlook send out 700mails with that ****ty CV attached. And he still didn't got a job!!!! Can you believe it?! I cant!!
Well, if THAT didn't work, what on earth will get you a jobb then?! I guess we all doomed
Or like BoeingDreamer. Nice guy overall. But its seems like he dont know what he is up to.
First he says I should leasen to pilots here. They know what they talks about. Not like me, fresh out of school.
After talking to those SAS guys, he says, well, ACTUALLY, those pilots dont have a clue about getting a job. Dont leasen to them.
Then he say he did his outmost to get a job, like most other people out here and most people he know. And still no luck. So, NO JOBS FOR PILOTS!
Later on, he tells me, he is not willing to go to Africa or anything like that. Neither is he willing to pay for TR.
So out of that, hes "outmost" is to wait for a job opening in England and let outlook send out CVs... (Im still shocked its dont work!)
Its sad to see all of you guys, trying to convince young people, on giving up their dreams.
Tell people how things really are. Tell them, yes, if you want to have real chance to getting a job, most likely you have to move outside of europe.
And you may expect to pay for your own type. You have to work your ars off, for the first 2-3 years and get payed nothing for it!
Too bad its so few guys in here, who really want to HELP people and not only to boost their ego. And even those who want to help, they getting trolled so much (good job, KAG & co.), they just give up.
But im happy I got in touch with couple good guys, who helped me quite much. Especially zondaracer! Thank you very much!
And rest of you, learn from him, become a better person!
Cheer lads, stay positive, dont be arsholes!
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PicMac
Do you have PMS or did I push your button?
Funny to read, how angry you gets.
"People like you" "people like me"?
Ok pal, you said I write "made up reality".
So, what did I write? Lets see, to sum it up:
"There is jobs, but you have to work your butt off and maybe still have to pay for your type"
WOW! That exactly same thing as you wrote at the end of your post.
Exactly same thing, as you did, to get where you are.
You see mate, what pisses you off, is not that I tell BS, but that I caught you on BS.
Here you are, amazing pilot (amazing pilot? More like SUPERMAN!) who got SELECTED! and has been working for whole 12 year now. Is on this forum, telling everyone to peacoff and forget about aviation (well, I have to be honest, I didn't see too many of your posts saying that, but you take side of KAG & co.). Anyhow, suddenly like rain on a sunny day, out of nowhere, fresh out of school guy, comes here and say: "it is possible to get a job!". And tells story, about how friends of his got the jobs!
As I said earlier, "of course it possible to get a job, many friends of mine did!" (you see - ball - round).
And you replay. Noooopp. Still no way to get a job. (triangle!)
Im flattered that you comment on my attitude, spelling, approach... everything but subj. of topic. I can send u a pic of me, so you can comment on my look as well. You want one with no shirt on?
Quite hot!
You know what that means, when your start with personal attacks, instead of good arguments on subj?
If you like to say anything more to me, you are very welcome to PM me.
And if you write to me, please, come with some good arguments.
After all, it surly look like 5yo kids, if we keep going "you stupid and arrogant", "no, its you stupid and arrogant! And you have bad spelling".
I suggest we dont spam this forum discussing me. Instead, try to help author. Although your post was showing everything that is wrong with this industry.
John, Ill PM you, cause this tread become some kind of trash:/
Do you have PMS or did I push your button?
Funny to read, how angry you gets.
"People like you" "people like me"?
Ok pal, you said I write "made up reality".
So, what did I write? Lets see, to sum it up:
"There is jobs, but you have to work your butt off and maybe still have to pay for your type"
WOW! That exactly same thing as you wrote at the end of your post.
Exactly same thing, as you did, to get where you are.
You see mate, what pisses you off, is not that I tell BS, but that I caught you on BS.
Here you are, amazing pilot (amazing pilot? More like SUPERMAN!) who got SELECTED! and has been working for whole 12 year now. Is on this forum, telling everyone to peacoff and forget about aviation (well, I have to be honest, I didn't see too many of your posts saying that, but you take side of KAG & co.). Anyhow, suddenly like rain on a sunny day, out of nowhere, fresh out of school guy, comes here and say: "it is possible to get a job!". And tells story, about how friends of his got the jobs!
As I said earlier, "of course it possible to get a job, many friends of mine did!" (you see - ball - round).
And you replay. Noooopp. Still no way to get a job. (triangle!)
Im flattered that you comment on my attitude, spelling, approach... everything but subj. of topic. I can send u a pic of me, so you can comment on my look as well. You want one with no shirt on?
Quite hot!You know what that means, when your start with personal attacks, instead of good arguments on subj?
If you like to say anything more to me, you are very welcome to PM me.
And if you write to me, please, come with some good arguments.
After all, it surly look like 5yo kids, if we keep going "you stupid and arrogant", "no, its you stupid and arrogant! And you have bad spelling".
I suggest we dont spam this forum discussing me. Instead, try to help author. Although your post was showing everything that is wrong with this industry.
John, Ill PM you, cause this tread become some kind of trash:/
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Honestly guys, we've all taken different paths to get where we are now and despite what a lot of you think those paths haven't actually ended yet for most. Different circumstances require different routes into the industry, and at the end of the day those who don't deserve to be there will be found out, but it is not the right or responsibility of you, me, or anyone to define who is right or wrong or who is needed and who is not.
As long as you enjoy what you do, you enter the industry with a fresh mindset that is willing to contribute, I'll more than happily refer to you as necessary and required. Cadetships are not going away, nor is pay to fly, nor is bushbashing or instructing or military. Learn to get along, it will pay off.
End rant.
As long as you enjoy what you do, you enter the industry with a fresh mindset that is willing to contribute, I'll more than happily refer to you as necessary and required. Cadetships are not going away, nor is pay to fly, nor is bushbashing or instructing or military. Learn to get along, it will pay off.
End rant.
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What is there to say, it seems you need to increase your English level Cefey, because it seems you are failing to understand what I have said in previous posts, and you have not responded properly to hard facts presented for you!
Let's go back to these SAS pilots first, SAS have the last few years been on brink of collapse.
The pilots in the airline, have been with the airline for many, many years! When they got their job with SAS, there was different times then today. Now today they have several thousand hours.
Their knowledge of how to get a job in todays market with LOW HOURS, is not the same as the time when they got their own jobs, which now has to be many years ago, since any SAS pilot got a job with low hours!
So whatever they tell you about the situation with the company hiring pilots, does NOT APPLY to you, as they are not in touch with reality for low houred pilots!
There are jobs for experienced pilots, we are NOT in that category.
With a 1000 hours on SEP as CFI, you will NOT be in that category either.
You see when you leave behind that low hour stigma of 200 - 1500 hours on SEP, and you start getting TT of 4000 - 5000 hours on Type, you are not in the same league anymore as us with low hours.
(by the way, somewhere you write you will get 1000 CFI hours instructing in the USA, NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN now anymore, those days are over for most European students, unless you are doing an academic 3 - 4 year degree or you work illegally in the US, which is a bad idea if you want to be a pilot and need to have free movement of travel world wide)
Now I have probably seen more of the world, then you will ever do in the rest of your life, even if you do get a job as a pilot!
I am not just sitting waiting for a job in the UK, and I am not unwilling to consider TR cost, if there is a firm job offer with it, however I have met several pilots, captains - in real life (friends), who have warned me against P2F, because one day one of the recruiters for a job interview, might be strongly opposed to such P2F schemes. Sure I do not need to tell them that I did P2F, but it will be fairly obvious, as both TRTO and airlines that do this, are no big secrets of who they are.
For some going to Africa might be good, but for many it ends bad, I know an aviation insurance broker who tells me enough stories about guys who don't get paid, get stranded or even worse stories about aircraft to dangerous to fly! Do they get a choice? Are you man enough to say no? Do you think your MCC will matter one dot there? If you want to go to Africa, good luck, not my cup of tea, as I have a family to take care of, and they will be no good if I return in a coffin just because I wanted to follow my dream at any price!
Asia is a different proposition, however stop dreaming thinking you will be fast tracked into a proper airline there, just because you have buddy of the chief executive, chief pilot recruits most, and insurance companies have very high standards. Why should you get a work permit in Asia, with little or not skills, compared others with several thousand hours on type.
Most Asian countries, and Russia, you will not get a work permit, as they have more /better skilled people available anyway, just as an Asian would not get work permit in Norway to come and fly for Norwegian.
You seem very naive, and great that you are positive, we all think that we will be the next lucky person in this business, and maybe you, me or someone else will be, but....you are insulting people with your ignorance on these forums, and a good advice instead of just ranting one more thing after the other, just sit back relax, read and maybe learn.
Not to offend you, but you don't even have a JAA licence yet (CPL & ME IR) There is a long way to go, and you might not like everything that is to come. You are free to choose to believe what you want on these boards, reality will arrive.
It looks fairly obvious when they see you did finish your IR with 200 hours, and then suddenly you have a TR and 150/300 or 500 hours on type! It will not take Einstein to figure that out, and with this you might not be in the top block of candidates anymore.
I do have a mixed selfish view of this, but have decided I will stick to my morales on this, as it is a danger, of where will this stop!
Now paying the TR is becoming the norm., what will be next? All FO positions will become P2F? Will we only have Captains and TRI's onboard?
It is time pilots think about their long term future, some have already been joking about getting rid of FO's all together, what better then do them permanent paying voyagers for the airlines!
Furthermore, for you paying £80.000 and another £15.000 for TR seems to be pocket money, by the way a TR is more then £15.000, it is more like £20.000 incl. base check and VAT. And with no time, not even worth the paper it is written on.
Now there are guys doing this, I know some at Ezy, to mention a friend I know, he got paid £1200 a month, so you say yes pay all, and your TR, and live on a fat great salary, in Norway you would not even be able to survive a week on such a salary!
There are guys on the Dash 8, getting £1700 a month. Stop dreaming of those salaries those SAS guys have, because those are the salaries that has nearly brought SAS to the brink, and they will NEVER RETURN!
You will have to work 15 - 20 years, before you will even get sniff of such salaries, by that time inflation will have made the money worth half of todays value anyway.
There is a lot of hard work, and a bit down to luck of who you know, but who you know is more important within smaller biz jet/ air taxi charters / regionals etc., as bigger airlines have a different recruitment system, much more stream lined trough online registration.
Some of your response regarding the CV's shows your ignorance, as it shows you do not have a clue of how you have to apply for most airline/biz.jet jobs in todays world.
Gone are the days when you send out CV's by mail to every company. They have strict policies, DO NOT CALL US, DUE TO HIGH DEMAND, WE WILL GET BACK TO YOU, REGISTER AND FILL OUT THE ONLINE APPLICATION. BANG - That is how you apply to 75% of the companies, then the rest you sit and search trough various channels, and you painstakingly personalize a letter to each company, checking what aircraft fleet they have, and if there is a chance they might employ just you.
Make a CV, that should be MAX 1 A4 page, no more!
Sure you can travel all around the world, and hand deliver your CV, and hope you might meet the chief pilot, and get a nice pat on the back, and a smile, sure kid, will be in touch with you if we get an opening, before you he files your CV with the rest of the 5000's CV's that has been mailed to him.
So you spend £100.000 on your training, and another £50.000 travelling the world to apply for jobs! You clearly have not thought very well trough this, and believe me it is due to lack of experience!
You need to understand, there is a free European Market, however this does not mean you are free to go and work where you want on the planet!
North America, South America is for sure a no go zone, unless you have mother/father or wife/husband from there. I believe same applies for Australia.
For Asia I believe it is not easy, unless you have good experience, and honestly, Africa not my choice.
But seriously, you need to improve your English skills, because that CV you are going to send out with Outlook (by the way I don't use Outlook, haven't got TR on Outlook anymore), has to be spot free from any spelling mistakes.
But this remark, seriously"You can whine ALL YOU WANT, but there WILL BE many people, who instead of waiting and working at factory, rather pay another 15k and start working in airliner, making good money, so they can pay their debt of and enjoy pilot life."
First 2 facts wrong, TR price for a large jet and, MAKE GOOD MONEY!
WRONG - WRONG - WRONG - you don't even know how much you will make the first years you get a job, do you?
You will hardly be able to pay your loan, for your training, never mind making good money and enjoy pilot life!
Let me guess, as you don't seem to care to much about another £15.000, it is is not your money you are spending, is it? It is Mummies boy!
This is why you are not in touch with reality, because it will not be you who will suffer the pain until you get money from the job centre!
Let's go back to these SAS pilots first, SAS have the last few years been on brink of collapse.
The pilots in the airline, have been with the airline for many, many years! When they got their job with SAS, there was different times then today. Now today they have several thousand hours.
Their knowledge of how to get a job in todays market with LOW HOURS, is not the same as the time when they got their own jobs, which now has to be many years ago, since any SAS pilot got a job with low hours!
So whatever they tell you about the situation with the company hiring pilots, does NOT APPLY to you, as they are not in touch with reality for low houred pilots!
There are jobs for experienced pilots, we are NOT in that category.
With a 1000 hours on SEP as CFI, you will NOT be in that category either.
You see when you leave behind that low hour stigma of 200 - 1500 hours on SEP, and you start getting TT of 4000 - 5000 hours on Type, you are not in the same league anymore as us with low hours.
(by the way, somewhere you write you will get 1000 CFI hours instructing in the USA, NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN now anymore, those days are over for most European students, unless you are doing an academic 3 - 4 year degree or you work illegally in the US, which is a bad idea if you want to be a pilot and need to have free movement of travel world wide)
Now I have probably seen more of the world, then you will ever do in the rest of your life, even if you do get a job as a pilot!
I am not just sitting waiting for a job in the UK, and I am not unwilling to consider TR cost, if there is a firm job offer with it, however I have met several pilots, captains - in real life (friends), who have warned me against P2F, because one day one of the recruiters for a job interview, might be strongly opposed to such P2F schemes. Sure I do not need to tell them that I did P2F, but it will be fairly obvious, as both TRTO and airlines that do this, are no big secrets of who they are.
For some going to Africa might be good, but for many it ends bad, I know an aviation insurance broker who tells me enough stories about guys who don't get paid, get stranded or even worse stories about aircraft to dangerous to fly! Do they get a choice? Are you man enough to say no? Do you think your MCC will matter one dot there? If you want to go to Africa, good luck, not my cup of tea, as I have a family to take care of, and they will be no good if I return in a coffin just because I wanted to follow my dream at any price!
Asia is a different proposition, however stop dreaming thinking you will be fast tracked into a proper airline there, just because you have buddy of the chief executive, chief pilot recruits most, and insurance companies have very high standards. Why should you get a work permit in Asia, with little or not skills, compared others with several thousand hours on type.
Most Asian countries, and Russia, you will not get a work permit, as they have more /better skilled people available anyway, just as an Asian would not get work permit in Norway to come and fly for Norwegian.
You seem very naive, and great that you are positive, we all think that we will be the next lucky person in this business, and maybe you, me or someone else will be, but....you are insulting people with your ignorance on these forums, and a good advice instead of just ranting one more thing after the other, just sit back relax, read and maybe learn.
Not to offend you, but you don't even have a JAA licence yet (CPL & ME IR) There is a long way to go, and you might not like everything that is to come. You are free to choose to believe what you want on these boards, reality will arrive.
It looks fairly obvious when they see you did finish your IR with 200 hours, and then suddenly you have a TR and 150/300 or 500 hours on type! It will not take Einstein to figure that out, and with this you might not be in the top block of candidates anymore.
I do have a mixed selfish view of this, but have decided I will stick to my morales on this, as it is a danger, of where will this stop!
Now paying the TR is becoming the norm., what will be next? All FO positions will become P2F? Will we only have Captains and TRI's onboard?
It is time pilots think about their long term future, some have already been joking about getting rid of FO's all together, what better then do them permanent paying voyagers for the airlines!
Furthermore, for you paying £80.000 and another £15.000 for TR seems to be pocket money, by the way a TR is more then £15.000, it is more like £20.000 incl. base check and VAT. And with no time, not even worth the paper it is written on.
Now there are guys doing this, I know some at Ezy, to mention a friend I know, he got paid £1200 a month, so you say yes pay all, and your TR, and live on a fat great salary, in Norway you would not even be able to survive a week on such a salary!
There are guys on the Dash 8, getting £1700 a month. Stop dreaming of those salaries those SAS guys have, because those are the salaries that has nearly brought SAS to the brink, and they will NEVER RETURN!
You will have to work 15 - 20 years, before you will even get sniff of such salaries, by that time inflation will have made the money worth half of todays value anyway.
There is a lot of hard work, and a bit down to luck of who you know, but who you know is more important within smaller biz jet/ air taxi charters / regionals etc., as bigger airlines have a different recruitment system, much more stream lined trough online registration.
Some of your response regarding the CV's shows your ignorance, as it shows you do not have a clue of how you have to apply for most airline/biz.jet jobs in todays world.
Gone are the days when you send out CV's by mail to every company. They have strict policies, DO NOT CALL US, DUE TO HIGH DEMAND, WE WILL GET BACK TO YOU, REGISTER AND FILL OUT THE ONLINE APPLICATION. BANG - That is how you apply to 75% of the companies, then the rest you sit and search trough various channels, and you painstakingly personalize a letter to each company, checking what aircraft fleet they have, and if there is a chance they might employ just you.
Make a CV, that should be MAX 1 A4 page, no more!
Sure you can travel all around the world, and hand deliver your CV, and hope you might meet the chief pilot, and get a nice pat on the back, and a smile, sure kid, will be in touch with you if we get an opening, before you he files your CV with the rest of the 5000's CV's that has been mailed to him.
So you spend £100.000 on your training, and another £50.000 travelling the world to apply for jobs! You clearly have not thought very well trough this, and believe me it is due to lack of experience!
You need to understand, there is a free European Market, however this does not mean you are free to go and work where you want on the planet!
North America, South America is for sure a no go zone, unless you have mother/father or wife/husband from there. I believe same applies for Australia.
For Asia I believe it is not easy, unless you have good experience, and honestly, Africa not my choice.
But seriously, you need to improve your English skills, because that CV you are going to send out with Outlook (by the way I don't use Outlook, haven't got TR on Outlook anymore), has to be spot free from any spelling mistakes.
But this remark, seriously"You can whine ALL YOU WANT, but there WILL BE many people, who instead of waiting and working at factory, rather pay another 15k and start working in airliner, making good money, so they can pay their debt of and enjoy pilot life."
First 2 facts wrong, TR price for a large jet and, MAKE GOOD MONEY!
WRONG - WRONG - WRONG - you don't even know how much you will make the first years you get a job, do you?
You will hardly be able to pay your loan, for your training, never mind making good money and enjoy pilot life!
Let me guess, as you don't seem to care to much about another £15.000, it is is not your money you are spending, is it? It is Mummies boy!
This is why you are not in touch with reality, because it will not be you who will suffer the pain until you get money from the job centre!
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...and the post was:
Hello fellow pilots,
after few years of unsuccessful job search with my frozen ATPL, have decided to buy type rating and potentially get some line experience as well.
Any advantages of disadvantages in choosing Eagle Jet or Ventum Air or Ryanair or Park Aviation? I have read the threads about them all but not sure what would make better employment opportunities at the end and keep the cost down at the same time?
I am aware of EasyJet ATP programme but friend of mine completed the scheme and was booted out after 6 months to free up the space for new arrivals so wont even try them.
Cheers,
J.S.
Any useful inputs about it?
after few years of unsuccessful job search with my frozen ATPL, have decided to buy type rating and potentially get some line experience as well.
Any advantages of disadvantages in choosing Eagle Jet or Ventum Air or Ryanair or Park Aviation? I have read the threads about them all but not sure what would make better employment opportunities at the end and keep the cost down at the same time?
I am aware of EasyJet ATP programme but friend of mine completed the scheme and was booted out after 6 months to free up the space for new arrivals so wont even try them.
Cheers,
J.S.
Any useful inputs about it?
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BD
you seem to be at least as ignorant as I am. Maybe more. So you are not the right person, to tell me, "stop being ignorant"
Let me say once more. I have many friend in FL right now. They are CFI. They are on F1 visa and they either have around 1000 hours, or they are in good position to get it.
So, what is more likely, 9 out of 10 CFI I know, is extremely lucky, or you are not in touch with reality? My vote goes for nr. 2.
Do you have very close contact with any flight schools in US? Maybe you work as CFI in US your self? No? So how can you be so confident on that.
You dont really know what F1 visa is, and how it apply for flight training. Why do you try to advice people on that subject?
I do remember your post about F1 and that was complete nonsense.
And if "conduct flight training or not" is subject more or less of personals opinion, where anyone can say whatever they got on their mind, visa issues is different. And if you dont have knowledge (and you dont), please dont give any advice there.
Or how do you call that?:
We all have our opinions. But there goes the line. And you call me for ignorant?!
That phrase, represent everything what is wrong with aviation!! If it was up to me, I would track him down by his IP, take his licens and cut it on two.
There is no room for people like him in this industry. But sad fact, there is some people like him in industry. And all his post is this way. But as saying goes, "something something, once piece of ****, something something always piece of ****"
Why do you tell about guy working at Ezy, getting 1200£ and then say "its not enough to live in Norway". Well, it is enough, actually. You will not be big spender, but you will be ok.
BUT, Norway is one of the most expensive countries in the world? Why do you take wage of one country and living cost at another?!
Why dont you rather take wage of SAS pilot and living cost at Zimbabwe?
As well, you comment of "inflation" make no sense. Sure, there is inflation. But there is something called wage-rise. So in 20 years, those money gonna have half the value, you are right. But in 20 years, top-wage will be twice as much as well.
1st year of job... well, yeah, maybe it will be hard. Maybe even first 3 years. And then you will start making money, enjoying being pilot.
What about whiny from the factory? Oh yeah, he will keep on whining, making ****-money and IF he get into industry in 15-20 years, he have those 3 bad years in front of him... While you, will be getting close to top-wage.
Im not offended at all, about "not having JAA" licenses. That the fact, that I dont have them Sure, there is a long way to go.
But what is JAA licenses? 6 months of ground and 20-30 flight hours. So, are you really so much on head of me?
Not to offend you neither, but to be honest, you dont have any more knowledge then I do (except fATPL theory).
So "You are free to choose to believe what you want on these boards, reality will arrive." Is kind of applying to you as well.
Whether to pay for TR or not, is up to each one. That the way aviation is. A while ago, all you had to get, is CPL. Now you have to get fATPL and MCC. And TR.
Why dont you protest against fATPL? Against MCC? Or even against CFII MEI and work as it for a year? X-years ago, all we needed is CPL and you where good to go!
Times changes. And we have to adjust our self.
30 years ago, it was HUGE to be a pilot, a capt on airplanes. Now, pilot is just... pilot. You dont meet too many of them. And its good payed job. But nothing more.
15k£ more or less. My money, or my parents money. What have that to do with you?
First of all, that is very rude to count others money.
Second, once again, you show, that you talking on subject, that you have NO IDEA what so ever about, making some assumptions.
That your problem, mate, you trying to "help" people in every thread there is. Without really having any good knowledge on subject.
Something you read on here or something you heard somewhere. And then you try to convince people "that the way it is". And the worst thing, not only you advice people, but you start arguing as well, based only on something you read/heard somewhere once or twice. You should stop doing that.
You got fATPL? Use that knowledge, help people in threads thats apply to it.
But stuff lika visa, or being CFI in US nowadays... let it to people who do know well about that subject and not from some rumors.
So, stop being ignorant your self, instead of telling that to me.
Start help people on subject you really know well.
And good luck with jobs!
PS: you are welcome to correct my spelling (or any other english) mistakes. Not everyone had luck to live in england and improve their english.
you seem to be at least as ignorant as I am. Maybe more. So you are not the right person, to tell me, "stop being ignorant"
(by the way, somewhere you write you will get 1000 CFI hours instructing in the USA, NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN now anymore, those days are over for most European students,
So, what is more likely, 9 out of 10 CFI I know, is extremely lucky, or you are not in touch with reality? My vote goes for nr. 2.
Do you have very close contact with any flight schools in US? Maybe you work as CFI in US your self? No? So how can you be so confident on that.
You dont really know what F1 visa is, and how it apply for flight training. Why do you try to advice people on that subject?
I do remember your post about F1 and that was complete nonsense.
And if "conduct flight training or not" is subject more or less of personals opinion, where anyone can say whatever they got on their mind, visa issues is different. And if you dont have knowledge (and you dont), please dont give any advice there.
Or how do you call that?:
Quote:
Good! Hope the same happens to you!
I am aware of EasyJet ATP programme but friend of mine completed the scheme and was booted out after 6 months to free up the space for new arrivals so wont even try them.
That phrase, represent everything what is wrong with aviation!! If it was up to me, I would track him down by his IP, take his licens and cut it on two.
There is no room for people like him in this industry. But sad fact, there is some people like him in industry. And all his post is this way. But as saying goes, "something something, once piece of ****, something something always piece of ****"
Why do you tell about guy working at Ezy, getting 1200£ and then say "its not enough to live in Norway". Well, it is enough, actually. You will not be big spender, but you will be ok.
BUT, Norway is one of the most expensive countries in the world? Why do you take wage of one country and living cost at another?!
Why dont you rather take wage of SAS pilot and living cost at Zimbabwe?
As well, you comment of "inflation" make no sense. Sure, there is inflation. But there is something called wage-rise. So in 20 years, those money gonna have half the value, you are right. But in 20 years, top-wage will be twice as much as well.
1st year of job... well, yeah, maybe it will be hard. Maybe even first 3 years. And then you will start making money, enjoying being pilot.
What about whiny from the factory? Oh yeah, he will keep on whining, making ****-money and IF he get into industry in 15-20 years, he have those 3 bad years in front of him... While you, will be getting close to top-wage.
Im not offended at all, about "not having JAA" licenses. That the fact, that I dont have them
Sure, there is a long way to go.But what is JAA licenses? 6 months of ground and 20-30 flight hours. So, are you really so much on head of me?
Not to offend you neither, but to be honest, you dont have any more knowledge then I do (except fATPL theory).
So "You are free to choose to believe what you want on these boards, reality will arrive." Is kind of applying to you as well.
Whether to pay for TR or not, is up to each one. That the way aviation is. A while ago, all you had to get, is CPL. Now you have to get fATPL and MCC. And TR.
Why dont you protest against fATPL? Against MCC? Or even against CFII MEI and work as it for a year? X-years ago, all we needed is CPL and you where good to go!
Times changes. And we have to adjust our self.
30 years ago, it was HUGE to be a pilot, a capt on airplanes. Now, pilot is just... pilot. You dont meet too many of them. And its good payed job. But nothing more.
15k£ more or less. My money, or my parents money. What have that to do with you?
First of all, that is very rude to count others money.
Second, once again, you show, that you talking on subject, that you have NO IDEA what so ever about, making some assumptions.
That your problem, mate, you trying to "help" people in every thread there is. Without really having any good knowledge on subject.
Something you read on here or something you heard somewhere. And then you try to convince people "that the way it is". And the worst thing, not only you advice people, but you start arguing as well, based only on something you read/heard somewhere once or twice. You should stop doing that.
You got fATPL? Use that knowledge, help people in threads thats apply to it.
But stuff lika visa, or being CFI in US nowadays... let it to people who do know well about that subject and not from some rumors.
So, stop being ignorant your self, instead of telling that to me.
Start help people on subject you really know well.
And good luck with jobs!
PS: you are welcome to correct my spelling (or any other english) mistakes. Not everyone had luck to live in england and improve their english.
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Do you think life in England is much cheaper then Norway?
£1200 you will not even be able to pay your debts.
£2000 you will pay your debts and rent, but you can manage to live of water and bread if you are lucky.
I don't know where you live in Norway, but friends of mine have a normal flat in Oslo, paying £1000 a month in rent. You missing the point, those huge SAS salary days are going, SAS might not even survive the next 5 years!
Working on an F1 visa full time as an instructor is illegal my friend, if they get caught, what you think will happen. My post on F1 was US immigration rules, sorry if they don't fit your world image.
Regarding the Ezy ATP program, hope that is not directed to me, because I did not mention anything about that. But it seems as you have a problem to comprehend the various posts from me and other people, I don't know of anyone doing the Ezy ATP program. So don't mix me up with others.
I and few others tell you facts, you choose to not believe, does not bother me or others the least.
Delta flight school could not promise any of their foreign students the chance to instruct any-more, they would try, but you could not count on that any-more, rather the exception then the rule. To many US pilots/instructors needing work, and of course they should get priority in the US, as we would want to have priority in Europe.
By the way, the factory worker makes much more money then a pilot makes for the first 3 - 4 years, maybe even longer if you don't get into a jet job.
£1200 you will not even be able to pay your debts.
£2000 you will pay your debts and rent, but you can manage to live of water and bread if you are lucky.
I don't know where you live in Norway, but friends of mine have a normal flat in Oslo, paying £1000 a month in rent. You missing the point, those huge SAS salary days are going, SAS might not even survive the next 5 years!
Working on an F1 visa full time as an instructor is illegal my friend, if they get caught, what you think will happen. My post on F1 was US immigration rules, sorry if they don't fit your world image.
Regarding the Ezy ATP program, hope that is not directed to me, because I did not mention anything about that. But it seems as you have a problem to comprehend the various posts from me and other people, I don't know of anyone doing the Ezy ATP program. So don't mix me up with others.
I and few others tell you facts, you choose to not believe, does not bother me or others the least.
Delta flight school could not promise any of their foreign students the chance to instruct any-more, they would try, but you could not count on that any-more, rather the exception then the rule. To many US pilots/instructors needing work, and of course they should get priority in the US, as we would want to have priority in Europe.
By the way, the factory worker makes much more money then a pilot makes for the first 3 - 4 years, maybe even longer if you don't get into a jet job.
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Well, of course its a must with a "decent flat" in the middle of Oslo?
No way someone can stay in a bit smaller place, let say in Lillestrøm (which is 15min with train from Oslo) or Jessheim (which is 25 min with train) and save 600£ a month only on that?
Sure, its nice with huge penthouse apt. at Aker Brygge. But if you make 1200£ a month, you dont rent a flat for 10.000£. You go for 300-400£.
Its not about what you want, its about what you can afford.
There is no "must" for no one, to live in Oslo or big apt. Especially if its only for 2-3 or even 5 years.
2 rooms apt, 25min from Oslo, 10min from airport. More then decent enough.
But, even those, if that wage would not be enough. You can always have some minor job on the side, cant you?
Or think in advance and make some extra savings.
I do part-time study now. With 20 hours a week (full time study is 25hrs a week). And I do work in addition to that. Like last 3 days, I worked night-shift, 13 hours a day.
Hard? Yes! Do I like it? No, not at all!! But, once Im done with fATPL and MCC, ill still have around 150.000NOK on my account, just in case I need it. Like if I will not be able to get a job (any kind of job) or Ill have to take low-payment flying job. Ill still be able to pay to the bank for 5 years AND have that little extra to help me out with rent, food, etc.
Its all about planing ahead, work hard, give it your best!
And yes, you can have practice on F1 visa.
Schools that issue F1, have approved program, which include practice time as FI. Thats part of the program!
No, you will not be allowed to work at gas station or Starbucks instead.
But you do work legally as Flight Instructor.
If you look at US gov. site, you will find that info. I did it for about a year ago.
It something that called "optional practice periode" or something like that, and its for around 1.5 year.
You did look at "general rules". But there are own rules for flight training and there are own rules for medical students and so on.
I have friends in 4 or 5 different schools in FL. All of those schools have mainly european students, with almost all european instructors.
You really thing 5 of major schools (all of them in top 10 for sure) have all of their instructor illegally employed? Kind of makes no sense, does it?
The thing is, school does promise 1000+ TT. But guys I know (who is CFI over there) do have (or about to get) that amount of time as well. All but 2 guys, but that was their fault, cause they was going on vacation, did not study too hard, beach, party etc...
No way someone can stay in a bit smaller place, let say in Lillestrøm (which is 15min with train from Oslo) or Jessheim (which is 25 min with train) and save 600£ a month only on that?
Sure, its nice with huge penthouse apt. at Aker Brygge. But if you make 1200£ a month, you dont rent a flat for 10.000£. You go for 300-400£.
Its not about what you want, its about what you can afford.
There is no "must" for no one, to live in Oslo or big apt. Especially if its only for 2-3 or even 5 years.
2 rooms apt, 25min from Oslo, 10min from airport. More then decent enough.
But, even those, if that wage would not be enough. You can always have some minor job on the side, cant you?
Or think in advance and make some extra savings.
I do part-time study now. With 20 hours a week (full time study is 25hrs a week). And I do work in addition to that. Like last 3 days, I worked night-shift, 13 hours a day.
Hard? Yes! Do I like it? No, not at all!! But, once Im done with fATPL and MCC, ill still have around 150.000NOK on my account, just in case I need it. Like if I will not be able to get a job (any kind of job) or Ill have to take low-payment flying job. Ill still be able to pay to the bank for 5 years AND have that little extra to help me out with rent, food, etc.
Its all about planing ahead, work hard, give it your best!
And yes, you can have practice on F1 visa.
Schools that issue F1, have approved program, which include practice time as FI. Thats part of the program!
No, you will not be allowed to work at gas station or Starbucks instead.
But you do work legally as Flight Instructor.
If you look at US gov. site, you will find that info. I did it for about a year ago.
It something that called "optional practice periode" or something like that, and its for around 1.5 year.
You did look at "general rules". But there are own rules for flight training and there are own rules for medical students and so on.
I have friends in 4 or 5 different schools in FL. All of those schools have mainly european students, with almost all european instructors.
You really thing 5 of major schools (all of them in top 10 for sure) have all of their instructor illegally employed? Kind of makes no sense, does it?
The thing is, school does promise 1000+ TT. But guys I know (who is CFI over there) do have (or about to get) that amount of time as well. All but 2 guys, but that was their fault, cause they was going on vacation, did not study too hard, beach, party etc...
Last edited by cefey; 4th Apr 2011 at 01:20.