Failing IR first series = never becoming a professional pilot
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I know two pilots that were 3rd series IRs and both got the first job they interviewed for and neither waited more than six months from completion. The market was much stronger then than it is today, but your result is nowhere near theirs. Make an effigy of the person who told you this is the end of your career hopes (I'd never advocate harm to the actual idiot!), take it to a wall and 
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Shamefully, I failed my second series IR flight test, really not good news.
I can't believe this has happened to me, I have worked so hard to get this far and it just seems impossible right now.
I'm starting to wonder if I should change flight schools. The school I am at is very new to instrument rating training and loads of people are failing flight tests at the moment, its all very worrying. It also seems that some of the senior instructors at the flight school have had disagreements with examiners at the CAA flight test centre in the past and this is causing tension on test.
I was given a 5 minute one way interview by my last examiner on test whilst taxing the aircraft back to the test centre about the flight school I am at and how they are not as good as a well known integrated outfit.
I have spoken to another school which flys the same aircraft type and they say that they are happy to take me on. Thankfully they use a different test centre and theres not too many routes to learn. Has anyone had experience of changing flight schools under similar circumstances?
I'm not used to failure and I always find a way to suceed, I'm generally very sucessful in all walks of life and failure in this instance is something which I'm not prepared to accept.
I can't believe this has happened to me, I have worked so hard to get this far and it just seems impossible right now.
I'm starting to wonder if I should change flight schools. The school I am at is very new to instrument rating training and loads of people are failing flight tests at the moment, its all very worrying. It also seems that some of the senior instructors at the flight school have had disagreements with examiners at the CAA flight test centre in the past and this is causing tension on test.
I was given a 5 minute one way interview by my last examiner on test whilst taxing the aircraft back to the test centre about the flight school I am at and how they are not as good as a well known integrated outfit.
I have spoken to another school which flys the same aircraft type and they say that they are happy to take me on. Thankfully they use a different test centre and theres not too many routes to learn. Has anyone had experience of changing flight schools under similar circumstances?
I'm not used to failure and I always find a way to suceed, I'm generally very sucessful in all walks of life and failure in this instance is something which I'm not prepared to accept.
Last edited by flyboy1818; 6th Jun 2010 at 11:12.
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Flyboy1818 - chin up!
Hopefully you got some constructive feedback from both IR's that allow you to concentrate on those areas during the AT and to put it all behind you on the third pop.
Sounds like a new school might not be a bad plan?
Hopefully you got some constructive feedback from both IR's that allow you to concentrate on those areas during the AT and to put it all behind you on the third pop.
Sounds like a new school might not be a bad plan?
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At least you did it in style. None this level busting nonsense.
I agree that a change and school and possibly airport might be in order.
Sorry couldn't help myself. Have a laugh, have a beer and get back into the cockpit and get it sorted.
I agree that a change and school and possibly airport might be in order.
Sorry couldn't help myself. Have a laugh, have a beer and get back into the cockpit and get it sorted.
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I would be more comfortable boarding an aircraft with you than with the pilots who did not do the walk around on my second last airline flight.
I know it because I am a voyeur
I was watching the whole 25 minutes of the B737-800' s rotation (guess what airline!).
3 days later I saw said airline doing push-back and engine start-up without the push-back crew plugged in (the microphone of the PBC was not working). Instead of getting a new headset, the PBC and flight crew, in an effort to win minutes to avoid getting a delay on themselves, agreed to work with hand-signs and clearly compromised the safety of the equipment, the trucker and the passengers.
Don' t bug yourself. If you are alive, healthy and all, that is the most important. After that comes the money and the career.
Career... I think that that is the issue with you.
Lower your expectations about what' s waiting for you after your training, that will relieve you from unnecessary pressure and help you do well through your training.
Convince yourself that you are passing an exam to become just another bus driver who can be happy if he could be consumed by the airline with the round-breasted female angel painted on its tails (angels are supposed to be asexual) under the motto: "Ignorance is flying".
Cheer up with this:
from Ryanair announce new logo to better reflect company values | I Hate Ryanair
I know it because I am a voyeur
I was watching the whole 25 minutes of the B737-800' s rotation (guess what airline!).3 days later I saw said airline doing push-back and engine start-up without the push-back crew plugged in (the microphone of the PBC was not working). Instead of getting a new headset, the PBC and flight crew, in an effort to win minutes to avoid getting a delay on themselves, agreed to work with hand-signs and clearly compromised the safety of the equipment, the trucker and the passengers.
Don' t bug yourself. If you are alive, healthy and all, that is the most important. After that comes the money and the career.
Career... I think that that is the issue with you.
Lower your expectations about what' s waiting for you after your training, that will relieve you from unnecessary pressure and help you do well through your training.
Convince yourself that you are passing an exam to become just another bus driver who can be happy if he could be consumed by the airline with the round-breasted female angel painted on its tails (angels are supposed to be asexual) under the motto: "Ignorance is flying".
Cheer up with this:
from Ryanair announce new logo to better reflect company values | I Hate Ryanair
Last edited by fly_antonov; 5th Jun 2010 at 21:51.
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Well I have decided to stay with my current flight school, I have changed instructors and they seem to have a good plan to get me through. Changing school would have involved learning new routes and an 80 mile drive in busy traffic, probably not the best ideal.
I was at a large social gathering last night and I realised that I have to do this and I can't give up, so many of my friends (all non pilots) asking about my progress and how its going.
Dangerzone, yes very funny and oh how does Ryanair end up in every thread? Its not like I can afford to work for them anyway! I will be looking at something a little different to that!
I was at a large social gathering last night and I realised that I have to do this and I can't give up, so many of my friends (all non pilots) asking about my progress and how its going.
Dangerzone, yes very funny and oh how does Ryanair end up in every thread? Its not like I can afford to work for them anyway! I will be looking at something a little different to that!
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my home airport has used hand signals for years (mainly ryanair) and have had never had any problems rergarding safety.... is wrong to say hand signals compromise safety.... (as long as everyone knows the hand signals which they should at least have an idea)...
John smith is right.
John smith is right.
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I have to agree as a retired apron marshaller! I was required to use handsignals if a thunderstorm warning was active by the Airport I worked for! Is a headset safer? The jury is out on that one, harder to run away when your connected to the aircraft!
However yelling STOP STOP STOP, down the headset never fails to work as the crew attempt to taxi off with you and the pushback still connected!
However yelling STOP STOP STOP, down the headset never fails to work as the crew attempt to taxi off with you and the pushback still connected!
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how does Ryanair end up in every thread?
I too have to echo the chorus. 'fly_antonov', I thought you were more intelligent than that. What absolute rubbish. Hand signals are entirely standard and safe. Why would every aviation authority, airline, air force etc use them if they endangered the safety of the passengers. You let yourself down with such an obviously stupid comment. I guess you think that the hand signals are improvised like a woman trying to help her friend park her car at the supermarket.
As for your other comment about some mystery airline: I'm not saying you're lying but I would be very surprised if what you said is correct. Every crew knows that they would probably be sacked if they deviated so far from company SOPs, and spies are everywhere.
Back on thread, try to keep calm. Do everything you can to prepare in advance. Familiarise yourself with likely test routes, know your checklists, RT etc inside out. Get 10 hours sleep the night before. Go in to the test rested, calm, fit, confident and prepared. You'll be less worried and less likely to make silly little mistakes that dent your confidence and raise your stress levels. For example, I was filling in flight plan forms as far as I could the day before the test. Every minute you can save on the test day wil make your life easier. Make it as easy as possible for yourself and don't go in with a worried mindset, that's going to pressurise yourself and stress yourself out. Easier said than done, especially in your situation but very important. Good luck.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 6th Jun 2010 at 14:05.
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Some of you want to know the details of the P/B story. Let's see if you are cool after knowing the details:
1. The person, alias Mickey Mouse who was in charge of the communication did not use standard signs as he or she was not familiar with them.
2. Mickey Mouse failed to check that the flightcrew had the brakes released.
3. Micky Mouse failed to check and confirm to the flight crew that the steering bypass pin was installed.
4. Mickey Mouse failed to ascertain the flight crew that the chokes were removed and they were removed sideways so the flightcrew could not possibly have known that they were.
5. Mickey Mouse did not clearly show the cockpit when he or she showed the removed steering bypass pin after P/B. MM just walked away without looking back and raised the pin in the air for 2 seconds.
MM was not adequatly trained to work without the headset and lacked competence in her work. Flightcrew should have noticed and asked for another P/B crew as another aircraft was doing a rotation not far away.
Deviation from procedures causes accidents.
All decent airlines in Europe work with verbal communication because it is the only way to communicate decently when something does happen.
How do you communicate to the flightcrew that an engine/aircraft section is on fire with hand signs? How do you ask permission from flight crew to extinguish a fire at the exhaust pipe with your hand? By sticking it in your ***?
Should I add more?
During boarding of said flight, a passenger walked slowly through the inner side of the ill-positioned perimeter under the wing, as close as 2 meters from engine 1, to the back stairs. This seems to happen very often as I saw the same happening at the flight that departed just before mine. There the cabin crew did motion the passengers to move around the perimeter but that was not the case on my flight. There was no one to monitor the safe boarding of the passengers.
Notice these are 3 cases of bad apron management on the last 3 rotations that I had followed closely. Not all are the airline' s fault but keep going like this and something will happen.
1. The person, alias Mickey Mouse who was in charge of the communication did not use standard signs as he or she was not familiar with them.
2. Mickey Mouse failed to check that the flightcrew had the brakes released.
3. Micky Mouse failed to check and confirm to the flight crew that the steering bypass pin was installed.
4. Mickey Mouse failed to ascertain the flight crew that the chokes were removed and they were removed sideways so the flightcrew could not possibly have known that they were.
5. Mickey Mouse did not clearly show the cockpit when he or she showed the removed steering bypass pin after P/B. MM just walked away without looking back and raised the pin in the air for 2 seconds.
MM was not adequatly trained to work without the headset and lacked competence in her work. Flightcrew should have noticed and asked for another P/B crew as another aircraft was doing a rotation not far away.
Deviation from procedures causes accidents.
All decent airlines in Europe work with verbal communication because it is the only way to communicate decently when something does happen.
How do you communicate to the flightcrew that an engine/aircraft section is on fire with hand signs? How do you ask permission from flight crew to extinguish a fire at the exhaust pipe with your hand? By sticking it in your ***?
As for your other comment about some mystery airline: I'm not saying you're lying but I would be very surprised if what you said is correct. Every crew knows that they would probably be sacked if they deviated so far from company SOPs, and spies are everywhere.
During boarding of said flight, a passenger walked slowly through the inner side of the ill-positioned perimeter under the wing, as close as 2 meters from engine 1, to the back stairs. This seems to happen very often as I saw the same happening at the flight that departed just before mine. There the cabin crew did motion the passengers to move around the perimeter but that was not the case on my flight. There was no one to monitor the safe boarding of the passengers.
Notice these are 3 cases of bad apron management on the last 3 rotations that I had followed closely. Not all are the airline' s fault but keep going like this and something will happen.
Last edited by fly_antonov; 6th Jun 2010 at 17:51.
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How do you communicate to the flightcrew that an engine/aircraft section is on fire with hand signs?
You need to study page 54 onwards. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP637.PDF
Back on topic please, for the sake of the thread starter and for the sanity of everyone who reads it.
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Dear John Smith,
You do the 8 signal and point to the fire. I will tell the crew that the APU or aft hold is on fire or that there is a sudden leak of liquid out of the wings, through the intercom, ok? When every second counts, I want to see you doing hand signals and trying to figure what signals the pilot is giving you back from the other side of the windshield.
I don' t know what kind of wild procedures you have at your airline but it is definitely not standard to have no verbal communication between P/B crew and the flight crew.
It is SOP to have verbal communication at most airlines.
The airline in question always does it, except in this case when an incompetent P/B crew was handling it.
Here is some reading material for you.
SKYbrary - Pushback
Risk Management
The evidence of accidents and incidents is that there are a number of recurrent features of aircraft damage during pushback:
You do the 8 signal and point to the fire. I will tell the crew that the APU or aft hold is on fire or that there is a sudden leak of liquid out of the wings, through the intercom, ok? When every second counts, I want to see you doing hand signals and trying to figure what signals the pilot is giving you back from the other side of the windshield.
I don' t know what kind of wild procedures you have at your airline but it is definitely not standard to have no verbal communication between P/B crew and the flight crew.
It is SOP to have verbal communication at most airlines.
The airline in question always does it, except in this case when an incompetent P/B crew was handling it.
Here is some reading material for you.
SKYbrary - Pushback
Risk Management
The evidence of accidents and incidents is that there are a number of recurrent features of aircraft damage during pushback:
- Hand signal rather than intercom communication
- Lack of intercom clarity in comms between aircraft and ground crew supervisor
- Ground crew totalling less than three people
- Departure from non-airbridge gates
- Failure of vehicle driver to maintain adequate communication with supervisor
- Lack of clearance between horizontal stabilisers of adjacent ‘T’ tail aircraft
- Pushback commenced from a parking position contrary to that marked
- Ground crew poorly trained or unfamiliar with the immediate pushback environment.
- Unserviceable towbars attributable to lack of ownership clarity
- Surface contamination obscuring pavement markings
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It's pointless arguing so I'll leave it at this.
The majority of the time a headset is used. However probably in 10-20% of pushbacks we use hand signals. To use hand signals is normal and standard. To suggest otherwise is quite simply incorrect. Anyway, enough! I really can't be bothered.
Incidentally,
If you're getting your knickers in a twist about the gender of the tail logo, that's when you know that your argument is absolute twaddle.
I don' t know what kind of wild procedures you have at your airline but it is definitely not standard to have no verbal communication between P/B crew and the flight crew.
Incidentally,
the airline with the round-breasted female angel painted on its tails (angels are supposed to be asexual)
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 6th Jun 2010 at 21:04.
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No one said the opposite.
You are trying to prove that I said that using hand signals is not allowed because it' s dangerous.
I did not say that it is not allowed and in the above case people were criticising before even knowing the details of the event. I did mention that it is SOP to use verbal communication and that it is safer.
It' s like I am saying that the sun is moving relative to th Earth and you bunch are presuming that I said that the sun is revolving around the Earth.
The crew in the event were not adequatly trained. Period
They should not have done the P/B without getting another headset because they were not competent in doing it without. Period
Whether or not they were competent using the headset I can not judge but they were not competent in their signals and they were not competent in other standard procedures. Period
I judged on what I could judge and I gave my conclusion that they should have gotten another headset from their mates who were standing idle watching the luggage people work, just 2 stands away.
I know what I am talking about. I was raised at an airport and my training goes far beyond the private training.
Stopping flight training was the right call. I know a guy who did the same, today he' s top executive at an airport. Just because he stopped the training doesn' t mean that he' s a complete idiot.
Idiots are those who continue to train in these market conditions, people like you. Still, instructors and other people need to eat so I am glad that you do spend your money into aviation. Just make sure you spend as much as you can and move on.
And since you seem to whine alot about other people, I am changing strategies. From today, I will convince people that they should train to become a pilot, on this forum. That way I will show you how little I care about your whineries and how bitter you think I am.
You are trying to prove that I said that using hand signals is not allowed because it' s dangerous.
I did not say that it is not allowed and in the above case people were criticising before even knowing the details of the event. I did mention that it is SOP to use verbal communication and that it is safer.
It' s like I am saying that the sun is moving relative to th Earth and you bunch are presuming that I said that the sun is revolving around the Earth.
The crew in the event were not adequatly trained. Period
They should not have done the P/B without getting another headset because they were not competent in doing it without. Period
Whether or not they were competent using the headset I can not judge but they were not competent in their signals and they were not competent in other standard procedures. Period
I judged on what I could judge and I gave my conclusion that they should have gotten another headset from their mates who were standing idle watching the luggage people work, just 2 stands away.
I know what I am talking about. I was raised at an airport and my training goes far beyond the private training.
Stopping flight training was the right call. I know a guy who did the same, today he' s top executive at an airport. Just because he stopped the training doesn' t mean that he' s a complete idiot.
Idiots are those who continue to train in these market conditions, people like you. Still, instructors and other people need to eat so I am glad that you do spend your money into aviation. Just make sure you spend as much as you can and move on.
And since you seem to whine alot about other people, I am changing strategies. From today, I will convince people that they should train to become a pilot, on this forum. That way I will show you how little I care about your whineries and how bitter you think I am.
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Then obviously you fly for cheap airlines who have strange SOPs or you do not fly at all. I can pretend to be Mohammed Ali or Ali Baba too.
Ok so they are going to assume that the fire is on the engine and shut it down when really it' s the brakes that are smoking? Of course you do not know because there are no distinct signs for engine or aircraft section fires. Have you never learned that "/" means "OR"? And you pretend to be a pilot?
Who are you man.
Gate closed, push-back initiated, nr 1 start-up. No intercom plugged in.
30 seconds to boom. Your P/B crew stops the aircraft and is doing your famous 8 signs and you assume engine number one fire. You shut it down.
20 seconds to boom. Marshaller insisting, cabin crew calls and says she sees smoke on the left side, assumes the engine.
10 seconds to boom. Engine fire warning is not showing but you assume failure, discharge bottles, initiate evacuation.
Boom:
YouTube - Raw Video of Plane Exploding As Passengers Flee
80% passengers / 250 people of your Thomas Cook 767 (or whatever big UK charter airline you fly for) fail to evacuate and die along with you. Investigation' s final report reads: bad communication delayed evacuation. Crew assumed engine fire when it was a wing root fire.
Reccommend new procedures.
Looking from the video above, the pilot barely escapes the explosion by falling off the rope. This was not during P/B but if it had happened during P/B, and without verbal communication, the above disaster scenario is very likely. In the fortunate chain of events of the above accident, an aircraft mechanic discovered the fuel leak as the aircraft arrived at the gate and reported it through the intercom. Had he not used the intercom and done your 8 shaped signals, it is possible that there would have been victims.
The intercom helped establish a smooth and fast communication whereas signals would have certainly delayed the evac.
3.19 Factors Contributing to No Casualties
It is considered highly probable that the following factors contributed no casualties and wounded despite the huge scale of the fire and the delayed start of fire-fighting operations.
A ground crew member had already connected the interphone to the Aircraft when the fire started, so the ground crew member was able to report the start of the fire to the Captain immediately.
How do you communicate to the flightcrew that an engine/aircraft section is on fire with hand signs? Oh I don't know. Perhaps by using the standard hand signal? i.e. making a figure 8 motion with one hand while pointing at the source of the fire with the other.
Who are you man.
All decent airlines in Europe work with verbal communication because it is the only way to communicate decently when something does happen. One word for that: bollocks. I suppose that by your definition, the airlines of Europe's two biggest holiday companies and the UK's third biggest charter carrier are not "decent airlines", because on my last trip to Zakynthos, I saw aircraft of all three carriers using hand signals to coordinate engine start with the ground? Never mind that doing so is an SOP (in my company anyway, and I assume in the others).
30 seconds to boom. Your P/B crew stops the aircraft and is doing your famous 8 signs and you assume engine number one fire. You shut it down.
20 seconds to boom. Marshaller insisting, cabin crew calls and says she sees smoke on the left side, assumes the engine.
10 seconds to boom. Engine fire warning is not showing but you assume failure, discharge bottles, initiate evacuation.
Boom:
YouTube - Raw Video of Plane Exploding As Passengers Flee
80% passengers / 250 people of your Thomas Cook 767 (or whatever big UK charter airline you fly for) fail to evacuate and die along with you. Investigation' s final report reads: bad communication delayed evacuation. Crew assumed engine fire when it was a wing root fire.
Reccommend new procedures.
Looking from the video above, the pilot barely escapes the explosion by falling off the rope. This was not during P/B but if it had happened during P/B, and without verbal communication, the above disaster scenario is very likely. In the fortunate chain of events of the above accident, an aircraft mechanic discovered the fuel leak as the aircraft arrived at the gate and reported it through the intercom. Had he not used the intercom and done your 8 shaped signals, it is possible that there would have been victims.
The intercom helped establish a smooth and fast communication whereas signals would have certainly delayed the evac.
I then alerted the Aircraft’s cockpit, saying, “Number two engine fire, extinguisher pull.” The cockpit responded by asking, “Engine fire?” I said again in a firm voice, “Fire, extinguisher handle pull out.” In a little while, white smoke started coming out from the engine, seeing which I realized that fire-extinguishing agent had been discharged. However, the flames were not extinguished. I then shouted over the interphone many times, saying, “Evacuate, please” (in English) and “Escape” (in Japanese). Soon after that, four doors opened and evacuation began.
3.19 Factors Contributing to No Casualties
It is considered highly probable that the following factors contributed no casualties and wounded despite the huge scale of the fire and the delayed start of fire-fighting operations.
A ground crew member had already connected the interphone to the Aircraft when the fire started, so the ground crew member was able to report the start of the fire to the Captain immediately.
You are such a bunch of bullocks yourself, I hope you never cross my path as a pilot, I do not want to die with you.
Since when is it taboo to discuss safety? If your airline is doing it always like that, have you ever contemplated that there may be a problem with your airline? I don' t think so because you do not seem to care about safety at all, you care to be right before anything.
Since when is it taboo to discuss safety? If your airline is doing it always like that, have you ever contemplated that there may be a problem with your airline? I don' t think so because you do not seem to care about safety at all, you care to be right before anything.
Last edited by fly_antonov; 6th Jun 2010 at 23:44.
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well heres an awful update but I'm going to post it anyway, things have gone from bad to worse.
I failed my third series flight test three weeks ago and I decided to take a new approach by going to a new school which fly the same aircraft type and going full time.
I got into the sim today and everything just went wrong, the routes are new and the sops they operate by are slightly different. They seem to think I need another 10 hours in the sim and 5 in the aircraft, this is going dreadfully wrong. I'm lost at what to do now, my old school are willing to take me back, but then whats the point if they are not upto scratch?
I have left the new school as I just don't have the money to afford that much flying anymore, this has not been cheap.
I'm thinking of giving up this is the biggest con ever!
I failed my third series flight test three weeks ago and I decided to take a new approach by going to a new school which fly the same aircraft type and going full time.
I got into the sim today and everything just went wrong, the routes are new and the sops they operate by are slightly different. They seem to think I need another 10 hours in the sim and 5 in the aircraft, this is going dreadfully wrong. I'm lost at what to do now, my old school are willing to take me back, but then whats the point if they are not upto scratch?
I have left the new school as I just don't have the money to afford that much flying anymore, this has not been cheap.
I'm thinking of giving up this is the biggest con ever!