Any happy souls out there?
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Any happy souls out there?
I'm currently doing ATPL groundschool after 300hrs as a PPL. Fortunately I can pay for the CPL (and possibly) IR without leaving me in huge debt. Yes, I guess I am lucky (but on the other hand I don't have time on my side at 39) - but there will still have to be sacrifices.
If there is anyone out there who still regards putting the efffort and finance into becoming a professional pilot was worth every drop of sweat and penny of cash, then I for one would like to hear your voice.
Am I looking for a degree of assurance I haven't gone completely mad? Yes, I guess I am. But do you blame me after reading these threads?
Thanks.
If there is anyone out there who still regards putting the efffort and finance into becoming a professional pilot was worth every drop of sweat and penny of cash, then I for one would like to hear your voice.
Am I looking for a degree of assurance I haven't gone completely mad? Yes, I guess I am. But do you blame me after reading these threads?
Thanks.
Last edited by XX621; 1st Mar 2010 at 15:42.
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If you want someone to tell you what you want to hear, you have a problem.
I mean, there' s nothing wrong with doing groundschool and having a PPL.
You should think twice though before heading into IR, CPL, ME.
As a 39 year old time is not on your side.
The market is not on your side either.
-1 - 1 = -2 not 0 or positive.
Madness? It' s your money, not mine.
I am perfectly happy with my decision of stopping training infedinitely.
I discovered that aviation is not only about flying as a pilot.
Pilots are the ones that the passengers get to see, but there' s a whole other bunch in the backstage running the show. It is so interesting to realise that piloting may be one of the easier jobs related to operating aircraft.
Hell, take-off, autopilot on, monitor autopilot, approach, autopilot off, land, park. Take the credit for the flight.
Just think of mechanics who have to find the source of a fuel leak outside in snowstorms and rain or ground crew that sometimes wish they could duplicate themselves to cope with the workload to keep airplanes flying on time. Or even ATC who handle dozens of moving dots on a screen, each representing hundreds of souls.
Every job has positives and negatives but if you love aviation, and you find that flying is a difficult option, then there could be a day where you start thinking that there may be more to it than just flying.
I mean, there' s nothing wrong with doing groundschool and having a PPL.
You should think twice though before heading into IR, CPL, ME.
As a 39 year old time is not on your side.
The market is not on your side either.
-1 - 1 = -2 not 0 or positive.
Madness? It' s your money, not mine.
I am perfectly happy with my decision of stopping training infedinitely.
I discovered that aviation is not only about flying as a pilot.
Pilots are the ones that the passengers get to see, but there' s a whole other bunch in the backstage running the show. It is so interesting to realise that piloting may be one of the easier jobs related to operating aircraft.
Hell, take-off, autopilot on, monitor autopilot, approach, autopilot off, land, park. Take the credit for the flight.
Just think of mechanics who have to find the source of a fuel leak outside in snowstorms and rain or ground crew that sometimes wish they could duplicate themselves to cope with the workload to keep airplanes flying on time. Or even ATC who handle dozens of moving dots on a screen, each representing hundreds of souls.
Every job has positives and negatives but if you love aviation, and you find that flying is a difficult option, then there could be a day where you start thinking that there may be more to it than just flying.
Last edited by fly_antonov; 1st Mar 2010 at 16:30.
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Hell, take-off, autopilot on, monitor autopilot, approach, autopilot off, land, park. Take the credit for the flight.
Just think of mechanics who have to find the source of a fuel leak outside in snowstorms and rain or ground crew that sometimes wish they could duplicate themselves to cope with the workload to keep airplanes flying on time. Or even ATC who handle dozens of moving dots on a screen, each representing hundreds of souls
Just think of mechanics who have to find the source of a fuel leak outside in snowstorms and rain or ground crew that sometimes wish they could duplicate themselves to cope with the workload to keep airplanes flying on time. Or even ATC who handle dozens of moving dots on a screen, each representing hundreds of souls
And who do you reckon will be in charge of making things right during the flight when things badly go wrong?! Have you ever thought about your flights as a passenger when you have arrived at your destination safe and sound while there was a terrible failure of the aeroplane systems, or engines even, and you haven't ever noticed anything fatal around you? You are completely wrong to think of pilots like additional monitoring systems getting paid for just monitoring!!! Trust me, many pilots are out there ready to tell you about terrifying incidents they've been through...Few minutes, or even seconds, felt like a whole day and night long. Why do they bother? Because they like "monitoring"?? Hell no! It's because they naturally fit those seats in the front of that tube, and are skilled enough to handle such tough times and then get you on your feet cheerfully out of the tube! They earn their money in reward of making you and the airline company safe and happy!!
I think you've made the right decision by giving up training as a pilot, and I'm happy for you and for my fellow pilots too. Aviation industry doesn't really need people with such a mentality. Despite all what you have said about the "Flight Deck Manager Projection", do yourself a favour and go back to basics first to learn the difference between a man and a machine!
Good luck
Last edited by WELCO; 1st Mar 2010 at 17:26.
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XX621,
I've had this conversation a few times recently - Knowing what you know now, would you do it again?!?
From personal experience - Luck and Timing is everything, regardless of skills...2010 has well and truly proved this for me personally, both have played there hands!
But, if what you are looking for is my feeling towards the job as a whole, it's all positive stuff - I never tire of doing the job whatever the time of day, I certainly don't regret any of the expense or hard work. I go to work looking forward to been at work. The shine does come off though, it is a job, I don't live to work!
Right now, i'd be hard pushed to recommend this to someone I cared about though, without wanting to step on someones dreams, enter the hold indefinietly, the industry has nothing to offer low-houred/zero experienced pilots.
Cheers
JB
I've had this conversation a few times recently - Knowing what you know now, would you do it again?!?
From personal experience - Luck and Timing is everything, regardless of skills...2010 has well and truly proved this for me personally, both have played there hands!
But, if what you are looking for is my feeling towards the job as a whole, it's all positive stuff - I never tire of doing the job whatever the time of day, I certainly don't regret any of the expense or hard work. I go to work looking forward to been at work. The shine does come off though, it is a job, I don't live to work!
Right now, i'd be hard pushed to recommend this to someone I cared about though, without wanting to step on someones dreams, enter the hold indefinietly, the industry has nothing to offer low-houred/zero experienced pilots.
Cheers
JB
No regrets. I love my job and couldn't imagine myself doing anything else. Most pilots I fly with (Captains, I'm an FO) say similar things when I ask similar questions.
No two days are the same, I learn something new every day. Just got back from a 10 hour duty day. Flew with a Captain who is close to retirement, fantastic chap, extremely knowledgeable and had some amazing stories. Some minor system failures, ATC leaving us rather strangely positioned for an NDB approach (flown manually, in an A320, the autopilot is there if you want it, if you don't, press that red button). Enjoyed the day, drank lots of tea, ate some cookies, looking forward to doing it all again somewhere I've never been tomorrow
.
No two days are the same, I learn something new every day. Just got back from a 10 hour duty day. Flew with a Captain who is close to retirement, fantastic chap, extremely knowledgeable and had some amazing stories. Some minor system failures, ATC leaving us rather strangely positioned for an NDB approach (flown manually, in an A320, the autopilot is there if you want it, if you don't, press that red button). Enjoyed the day, drank lots of tea, ate some cookies, looking forward to doing it all again somewhere I've never been tomorrow
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Bio = Luvvie to football manager?
Stick to flying your Bulldog unless you can buy your way into a job which I doubt. Flying for a living and flying for fun are not always the same thing.
Ask yourself why someone would pick you to work for them as a professional pilot of any sort? Unless you can come up with something really special and original I think you are dreaming about a life but one that has a route that is likely to bankrupt you or at least lead you into a serious depression in 18 months time. However if money is no object then go ahead - when you cannot even afford to fly for fun, flying for a living will not be likely to ever happen.
It's a shame but that is just my opinion having spent a few years here watching the wanabe army come and go and recently it has been sad to see the ones falling by the wayside.
Do yourself a favour, dream and fly, you don't have to ruin your life and the risk has not been this high for a long time ...
Ask yourself why someone would pick you to work for them as a professional pilot of any sort? Unless you can come up with something really special and original I think you are dreaming about a life but one that has a route that is likely to bankrupt you or at least lead you into a serious depression in 18 months time. However if money is no object then go ahead - when you cannot even afford to fly for fun, flying for a living will not be likely to ever happen.
It's a shame but that is just my opinion having spent a few years here watching the wanabe army come and go and recently it has been sad to see the ones falling by the wayside.
Do yourself a favour, dream and fly, you don't have to ruin your life and the risk has not been this high for a long time ...
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And who do you reckon will be in charge of making things right during the flight when things badly go wrong?!
Most of the time a pilot just gets to push and pull buttons and switches, seated in an airconditionned aircraft, getting served coffee by an F/A.
Compare that to working on an understaffed tarmac, exposed to the weather elements, noisy engines and APU' s every single day, having little to no time to take a seat or a sip of coffee because you are under time pressure of delayed flights.
It doesn' t mean that piloting is a simple job. Sometimes you face situations like you mention.
But day to day and overall it is less tough, "easier" in that sense.
Let' s face it, if you like airplanes and you want to work on them, why does it have to be as a pilot? To most the answer to themselves will be that it is the most pink-glassed/rosy/glamourous option.
Been there, done that.
My point being that there is no one job better than the other, but if you really have a passion for aviation and that you can' t become a pilot within reasonable conditions, there are other challenges to be met within the same industry.
So why take the risk of going broke to absolutely become a pilot if you have other options within the industry that will actually pay you to work (but are tougher) and let you manage flight operational matters while being able to enjoy a ride in the cockpit from time to time?
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XX621
I'm very happy - 3-400 hours a year flying a mid-size bizjet for a UK charter company. I visit many and varied airports and stay in 5 star hotels. I don't pay for type ratings, uniform, food and drink or anything else that is related to doing my job. I go to work, on average, 10 days per month and get to spend lots of quality time with my wife and kids. I even get paid significantly more than the National average wage.
How did I manage to land this dream job? PPL/IMC/FI/Para dropping/Air Taxi/Networking and holding down a second job over the 15 years it took to get to where I am now. I never borrowed, nor was given, a penny towards my training, which was done with 4 schools on 2 continents. I did ATPL theory via distance learning so that I could earn at the same time and averaged 90% without the benefit of a "question bank". By the way, I was over 40 before I received my first paycheck as a commercial pilot.
I have met and trained many pilots just as determined as me who have gained a CPL but never gained employment. I know several who have been declared bankrupt and others who have suffered divorce as a result of their selfish pursuit of a career in aviation. A very few will shortcut their way to an airline job straight out of flight school but for every one there will be one hundred who fall by the wayside.
I really don't know what else to say to you. Gaining a proper, paying job as a pilot in the present climate is a lottery. To join the game, however, you have to have an FATPL. Do you feel lucky?
Best Wishes
AP
I'm very happy - 3-400 hours a year flying a mid-size bizjet for a UK charter company. I visit many and varied airports and stay in 5 star hotels. I don't pay for type ratings, uniform, food and drink or anything else that is related to doing my job. I go to work, on average, 10 days per month and get to spend lots of quality time with my wife and kids. I even get paid significantly more than the National average wage.
How did I manage to land this dream job? PPL/IMC/FI/Para dropping/Air Taxi/Networking and holding down a second job over the 15 years it took to get to where I am now. I never borrowed, nor was given, a penny towards my training, which was done with 4 schools on 2 continents. I did ATPL theory via distance learning so that I could earn at the same time and averaged 90% without the benefit of a "question bank". By the way, I was over 40 before I received my first paycheck as a commercial pilot.
I have met and trained many pilots just as determined as me who have gained a CPL but never gained employment. I know several who have been declared bankrupt and others who have suffered divorce as a result of their selfish pursuit of a career in aviation. A very few will shortcut their way to an airline job straight out of flight school but for every one there will be one hundred who fall by the wayside.
I really don't know what else to say to you. Gaining a proper, paying job as a pilot in the present climate is a lottery. To join the game, however, you have to have an FATPL. Do you feel lucky?
Best Wishes
AP
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Communication
It is not possible to get the gist of flying a big passenger aircraft to Antonov. Without him/her experiencing the big worrying stuff, how can he know why those folks get paid so well. The scary episodes always stay with you, both to learn from and to remind you. There may be another one in a few minutes or a few years. Along with plenty of the usual stuff he refers to.
That is where we earn our crust. And it is rarely as usual as it appears.
But for those who are not successful in gaining a right-seat job in the airlines, he/she is right. There are many other great and demanding jobs. No issue with that. hard graft, skills, no public recognition, unsociable hours, etc. The nub of it is; who gets the glory, the money and the girls? General perception....pilots. They also get buried with their mistakes, or sometimes end up in a Greek jail. But they carry the can. And their skills are generally as high as anyone else's.
It is the way it is.
That is where we earn our crust. And it is rarely as usual as it appears.
But for those who are not successful in gaining a right-seat job in the airlines, he/she is right. There are many other great and demanding jobs. No issue with that. hard graft, skills, no public recognition, unsociable hours, etc. The nub of it is; who gets the glory, the money and the girls? General perception....pilots. They also get buried with their mistakes, or sometimes end up in a Greek jail. But they carry the can. And their skills are generally as high as anyone else's.
It is the way it is.
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XX621
What is your current job if you don't mind me asking? Sounds like you are doing OK at 39 with pretty much most of the money in place to fund the training. Be carefull as the competition for jobs is very high! (try 900 applicants for 40 jobs recently seen at a low fare airline). There are lots and lots of younger lads with new licences already and several hundred experienced guys that have lost jobs in recent times that can't get work. I keep hearing things like it will pick up in a couple of years time - will it? How do we know for sure or is that just wishfull thinking. How long will it take to absorb those already on the market - none of us can really answer that with any degree of honesty. I wish we could. BE CAREFULL before making the commitment.
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Royhudd, I am indeed refering to wannabe pilots who have not yet done the big jump.
But even if you' re an active airline pilot, try to find a way to spend a day with mechanics on line maintenance. You will learn to appreciate their job more.
They probably save more lives than pilots do but they don' t get any credit for it because they generally do it before it puts lives at risk.
They easily get all the blame when something mechanical goes wrong though.
Ok, their life is not normally exposed to immediate danger but when an aircraft that they serviced is involved in a major incident or accident, they start thinking whether they could have done something wrong that may have caused the incident.
Until the investigation proves otherwise, they spend countless sleepless nights.
I don' t feel like stopping my pilot training was a big loss to me. I have discovered new dimensions to aviation that I had previously ignored and underestimated. I am considering dropping professional flying aspirations for these new challenges.
My passion for aviation makes it so that I don' t care where I go for as long as I am inside that airport fence doing something that matters.
If and when I badly feel the need to fly, I can catch a jumpseat or rent a local Cessna and lift myself to flight level 100, practice forced landings or shoot ILS approaches.
But even if you' re an active airline pilot, try to find a way to spend a day with mechanics on line maintenance. You will learn to appreciate their job more.
They probably save more lives than pilots do but they don' t get any credit for it because they generally do it before it puts lives at risk.
They easily get all the blame when something mechanical goes wrong though.
Ok, their life is not normally exposed to immediate danger but when an aircraft that they serviced is involved in a major incident or accident, they start thinking whether they could have done something wrong that may have caused the incident.
Until the investigation proves otherwise, they spend countless sleepless nights.
I don' t feel like stopping my pilot training was a big loss to me. I have discovered new dimensions to aviation that I had previously ignored and underestimated. I am considering dropping professional flying aspirations for these new challenges.
My passion for aviation makes it so that I don' t care where I go for as long as I am inside that airport fence doing something that matters.
If and when I badly feel the need to fly, I can catch a jumpseat or rent a local Cessna and lift myself to flight level 100, practice forced landings or shoot ILS approaches.
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Overpaid pilots
My respect for engineers (not mechanics) is as high as anybody's. There are of course good ones and lazy ones, just like in any work. In my experience, most of them do a fine job, and don't get paid what they deserve.
The only thing is.....after some interesting maintenance, not all are willing to go on the air test. Poor old pilots can't say no. What does that tell you? (I'm talking about 1 in 100, not more)
But all in all, I agree with you. Its not really something to argue about.
The only thing is.....after some interesting maintenance, not all are willing to go on the air test. Poor old pilots can't say no. What does that tell you? (I'm talking about 1 in 100, not more)
But all in all, I agree with you. Its not really something to argue about.
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Forgive me if that's not where your coming from. Personally, I think it's healthy and wise to question chosen strategies and seek out information which contradicts your reasoning. I'm prepared to put all the time and effort in (7 months ground school to date alongside young family and full time job), but I'm simply too boringly sensible to entertain significant financial risk in becoming qualified.
Hence my first post. I'm attracted to flying commercially because I believe it will be challenging and rewarding one, and ultimately it was always my first, ideal world, choice of career. That could be FI work, air taxi, airline, or anything where there is more purpose, and complexity, to the flight beyond a 2400ft bimble. However, if I ask 100 CPs from a wide variety of flying jobs and 90% say it's a crap, well that's strong evidence which should at least be considered. Reading through this forum there is an abundance of naysayers. I'm simply inviting the yaysayers to speak up. If there aren't any, well - that's just as useful to know.....please don't hesitate to challenge my comments, it is after all a forum....
Thanks for the posts so far - really good reads. Cheers.
Last edited by XX621; 1st Mar 2010 at 22:36.
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Fly Antanov
I think I know what you are attempting to say but it comes across as though you are a little bitter that you did not finish flight training. I was an engineer on the ramp before I became a pilot and it is extremely challenging at times as is to an equal amount being a pilot.
But I think what you are really doing is trying to justify to yourself the reason you did not finish and become a pilot by directing others to take your path. That's a very common thing people do to make themselves feel better,
I think I know what you are attempting to say but it comes across as though you are a little bitter that you did not finish flight training. I was an engineer on the ramp before I became a pilot and it is extremely challenging at times as is to an equal amount being a pilot.
But I think what you are really doing is trying to justify to yourself the reason you did not finish and become a pilot by directing others to take your path. That's a very common thing people do to make themselves feel better,
Most of the time a pilot just gets to push and pull buttons and switches, seated in an airconditionned aircraft, getting served coffee by an F/A.
Compare that to working on an understaffed tarmac, exposed to the weather elements, noisy engines and APU' s every single day, having little to no time to take a seat or a sip of coffee because you are under time pressure of delayed flights.
Compare that to working on an understaffed tarmac, exposed to the weather elements, noisy engines and APU' s every single day, having little to no time to take a seat or a sip of coffee because you are under time pressure of delayed flights.
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The thing here is that you can just sit down and post whatever you wish. You can say that a pilot has an easy job, if you want to! But it all goes back to what do you want to be. Want to make a real career and develop your skills and knowledge? Yeah, IT IS a hard job. Only your passion to your job determines where you are heading. Talking about stressful work?!! Oh sonny boy, you know so little about stress!
An opinion of a plumber about how hard/easy my job could be is simply not of any importance! (with all the respect to the plumbers out there)
Good luck
An opinion of a plumber about how hard/easy my job could be is simply not of any importance! (with all the respect to the plumbers out there)
Good luck
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No regrets. I love my job and couldn't imagine myself doing anything else. Most pilots I fly with (Captains, I'm an FO) say similar things when I ask similar questions.
No two days are the same, I learn something new every day. Just got back from a 10 hour duty day. Flew with a Captain who is close to retirement, fantastic chap, extremely knowledgeable and had some amazing stories. Some minor system failures, ATC leaving us rather strangely positioned for an NDB approach (flown manually, in an A320, the autopilot is there if you want it, if you don't, press that red button). Enjoyed the day, drank lots of tea, ate some cookies, looking forward to doing it all again somewhere I've never been tomorrow
.
No two days are the same, I learn something new every day. Just got back from a 10 hour duty day. Flew with a Captain who is close to retirement, fantastic chap, extremely knowledgeable and had some amazing stories. Some minor system failures, ATC leaving us rather strangely positioned for an NDB approach (flown manually, in an A320, the autopilot is there if you want it, if you don't, press that red button). Enjoyed the day, drank lots of tea, ate some cookies, looking forward to doing it all again somewhere I've never been tomorrow
I think i'll send it into easyjet.....luton was it
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XX621,
very good post, and very good readings. I think you made the right decision to keep your work alongside the route of becoming a pilot. So did I. I think many many factors come in play. Maybe too many to make it possible to give an answer.
One thing you should tale into consideration is that you do enjoy pilot's life really th every first couple of years. Then routine comes and many attractive considerations may fall. I mean, the game brings into it many factors that you may wish to consider before making the big jump. If you live in the US then maybe you'd have many other options to feed your need to fly. This is not the same in Europe. I'd say, go for it, but keep a backup door open. Always.
very good post, and very good readings. I think you made the right decision to keep your work alongside the route of becoming a pilot. So did I. I think many many factors come in play. Maybe too many to make it possible to give an answer.
One thing you should tale into consideration is that you do enjoy pilot's life really th every first couple of years. Then routine comes and many attractive considerations may fall. I mean, the game brings into it many factors that you may wish to consider before making the big jump. If you live in the US then maybe you'd have many other options to feed your need to fly. This is not the same in Europe. I'd say, go for it, but keep a backup door open. Always.
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I fall in the happy soul category, i love the fact that i sit in a 500 mph office with a view that changes every single moment of the day for which I'm paid an awesome salary ....NO ground job compares to this 
If you can afford it, go for it!
Mutt
If you can afford it, go for it!
Mutt