We need to end this PTF c*@p now.
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We need to end this PTF c*@p now.
OK, i think most of the sane pilots and wannabes on this forum can see where this could end. Its been said on many different threads that sooner or later a low houred PTF FO will cause some kind of accident and this will start a national outrage at the whole PTF industry.
My question is, if we really do think this could happen then why are we waiting for it to come to that? Surely someone like Balpa needs to end this before it gets to that stage. If it does happen then there will be loads of posters coming on here saying 'I told you this would happen etc. etc.' If you are so sure that there is a risk of it happening and many lives being in danger than why aren't we all trying to do something about it.
Pprune is a large community and so we must collectively have some kind of power. I have heard it said on many threads that this place is used by journalists to get info. How about one of you starts of a story about this and gets it into the public domain. Im sure the fare paying public would be interested to know that the aircraft is being flown, not by the best person for the job but the one with the deepest pockets.
This is a job, not a flight sim add-on.
My question is, if we really do think this could happen then why are we waiting for it to come to that? Surely someone like Balpa needs to end this before it gets to that stage. If it does happen then there will be loads of posters coming on here saying 'I told you this would happen etc. etc.' If you are so sure that there is a risk of it happening and many lives being in danger than why aren't we all trying to do something about it.
Pprune is a large community and so we must collectively have some kind of power. I have heard it said on many threads that this place is used by journalists to get info. How about one of you starts of a story about this and gets it into the public domain. Im sure the fare paying public would be interested to know that the aircraft is being flown, not by the best person for the job but the one with the deepest pockets.
This is a job, not a flight sim add-on.
People have been saying for decades that low experience FO's would cause an accident. It has never happened.
Difficult ground.
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Difficult ground.
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Prophead... Where's the evidence?
Yes, there are, and have been, "concerns." But where's your evidence? No regulatory body or journo is going to raise concerns or try to change the rules unless/until there is good reason to do so. And right now, no such reasons seem to exist. IMHO of course. bm
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Whilst agreeing that PTF is wrong, it appears that with market conditions such as they are, it is here to stay.
Why is a PTF pilot with 250hrs more likely to have an incident than a SSTR or bonded 250hr pilot? They have a large financial interest in getting it right and of course hope to be kept on as a result of their performance. Unfortunately just the smallest glimpse of the imagined nirvana is enough to open some cheque books in the mistaken impression they'll remain employed. As said before, in this market it's not going to happen.
Experience levels are the same and unless the PTF pilot has failed miserably during any previous employment attempts then each can fall at the same hurdles during training and subsequently. Many experienced pilots have bent aeroplanes for any number of reasons.
I don't think the discussion is really about maligning the abilities of the PTF candidate rather it is the morality of these schemes and the effect it has on the livelihoods of others. Unfortunately it brings in cash and that makes the bean counters very happy.
Why is a PTF pilot with 250hrs more likely to have an incident than a SSTR or bonded 250hr pilot? They have a large financial interest in getting it right and of course hope to be kept on as a result of their performance. Unfortunately just the smallest glimpse of the imagined nirvana is enough to open some cheque books in the mistaken impression they'll remain employed. As said before, in this market it's not going to happen.
Experience levels are the same and unless the PTF pilot has failed miserably during any previous employment attempts then each can fall at the same hurdles during training and subsequently. Many experienced pilots have bent aeroplanes for any number of reasons.
I don't think the discussion is really about maligning the abilities of the PTF candidate rather it is the morality of these schemes and the effect it has on the livelihoods of others. Unfortunately it brings in cash and that makes the bean counters very happy.
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Safety grounds is a non runner I am afraid.
Look there were 3 type rated pilots on the flight deck of the Turkish 738 that went down on approach to 18R in EHAM. Whilst the guy in the right seat no doubt had very low hours there was a training captain in addition to an f/o on the jump seat and not one of them decided that it was a tad bit strange that the engines had gone to idle, that the captains RA read zero when it should have been reading over a thousand feet a few miles from touchdown and that the nose was continually pitching up on instruction of the AP until it was to late. I can tell you that the accident report will not focus on the poor bloke up to ears in it in the RHS it will be how come two other pilots managed to let him drill them and a bunch of passengers into the ground.
Which airlines are less safe with PTF peeps on them?
You would have more success at citing fatigue inducing factors on safety. Think working for a company that can change your base at will, does not guarantee you an income, long duty days, positioning at your own expense, threatens you with this and that. All on the back of having mounting debts to repay.
There MIGHT be some changes heading our way if the FAA clamps down on the smaller operators following on from the Buffalo crash but don't hold your breath.
Look there were 3 type rated pilots on the flight deck of the Turkish 738 that went down on approach to 18R in EHAM. Whilst the guy in the right seat no doubt had very low hours there was a training captain in addition to an f/o on the jump seat and not one of them decided that it was a tad bit strange that the engines had gone to idle, that the captains RA read zero when it should have been reading over a thousand feet a few miles from touchdown and that the nose was continually pitching up on instruction of the AP until it was to late. I can tell you that the accident report will not focus on the poor bloke up to ears in it in the RHS it will be how come two other pilots managed to let him drill them and a bunch of passengers into the ground.
Which airlines are less safe with PTF peeps on them?
You would have more success at citing fatigue inducing factors on safety. Think working for a company that can change your base at will, does not guarantee you an income, long duty days, positioning at your own expense, threatens you with this and that. All on the back of having mounting debts to repay.
There MIGHT be some changes heading our way if the FAA clamps down on the smaller operators following on from the Buffalo crash but don't hold your breath.
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I agree there is no evidence but i keep hearing this being said by experienced pilots. It also seems to be being suggested as a contributor towards some accidents in the USA.
I guess we will just have to wait with fingers crossed and hope that no serious accident does happen.
How long will it be until we see the first 0 - Captain course being offered i wonder?
I guess we will just have to wait with fingers crossed and hope that no serious accident does happen.
How long will it be until we see the first 0 - Captain course being offered i wonder?
