Starting your first (JAR) logbook - a question
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Starting your first (JAR) logbook - a question
Hello there.
I've just managed to get my PPL(A) and am starting on my way towards a commercial licence.
Up till now all my hours have been logged in an internal FTO logbook, and I need to transfer them to my own logbook that I've just purchased. The instructors at my FTO are telling me that the normal procedure is to write all the hours from my PPL training in a single first entry in a new logbook, marking them as 'brought forward from PPL(A) training logbook', and get a stamp and signature of the Head of Training on that entry.
However, I heard that this sort of entry might be questioned in other countries (I myself am from Poland). Is that true? How did you guys log your PPL training hours (and in what countries did you complete the training)?
Thanks in advance for all answers
Michael
I've just managed to get my PPL(A) and am starting on my way towards a commercial licence.
Up till now all my hours have been logged in an internal FTO logbook, and I need to transfer them to my own logbook that I've just purchased. The instructors at my FTO are telling me that the normal procedure is to write all the hours from my PPL training in a single first entry in a new logbook, marking them as 'brought forward from PPL(A) training logbook', and get a stamp and signature of the Head of Training on that entry.
However, I heard that this sort of entry might be questioned in other countries (I myself am from Poland). Is that true? How did you guys log your PPL training hours (and in what countries did you complete the training)?
Thanks in advance for all answers
Michael
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You should transcribe each flight into your own logbook and also get that signed by the CFI / FTO on completion of the course.
As it is also getting towards the end of the year you might like to think about keeping an annual total as this can make it easier in years to come to keep a tally of your hours.
Some airlines will also keep a total of your hours but it is YOUR licence and therefore it is also YOUR responsibility to keep a log of your hours - including Duty hours - to ensure that you comply with the Duty / Flying hour limitations.
HWB
As it is also getting towards the end of the year you might like to think about keeping an annual total as this can make it easier in years to come to keep a tally of your hours.
Some airlines will also keep a total of your hours but it is YOUR licence and therefore it is also YOUR responsibility to keep a log of your hours - including Duty hours - to ensure that you comply with the Duty / Flying hour limitations.
HWB
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I believe most national authorities will require you to submit your logbook at some stage to verify experience requirements prior to the award of additional ratings etc. Certainly here in Belgium it is a requirement that each flight is recorded and countersigned by your instructor prior to the issue of a PPL.
In addition each skills test (PPL, CPL etc) must be seperately annotated in the book and countersigned by the examiner.
I know of some non Belgian pilots who have fallen foul of the CAA here and have had to spend a considerable amount of time chasing down signatures and details.
So it would be in your best interest to record everything now and keep it maintained. It's also a good idea to record all notes in your logbook in English or at least be prepared to provide a certified translation if required.
In addition each skills test (PPL, CPL etc) must be seperately annotated in the book and countersigned by the examiner.
I know of some non Belgian pilots who have fallen foul of the CAA here and have had to spend a considerable amount of time chasing down signatures and details.
So it would be in your best interest to record everything now and keep it maintained. It's also a good idea to record all notes in your logbook in English or at least be prepared to provide a certified translation if required.
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Ok, so, to recap and make sure I got this straight. I've done some reading, and up till now my conclusions are as follows. Could you guys be so kind and see if they're correct, or maybe I'm missing something.
1. Now that I have my own logbook, I should go up to my FTO, get my 'internal' logbook from their archives, and transcribe each and every flight into my own (except for example circuit patterns, which I can block together in a single entry - "If the holder of a licence carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed thirty minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry."), right?
2. All the pilot function time from the beginning up to my first solo goes in the 'DUAL' column. In the 'PIC NAME' column goes the name of the instructor with whom I condutced those flights. Now - does every entry like that need to be countersigned by him in the 'REMARKS'? Or does this only apply to the next cases?
3. When I get to a point in which I am the sole occupant of the aircraft (first solo, circuit patterns, solo flight in training zones, and solo cross country) I log the time as PIC. 'PIC NAME' is my humble self, and in 'REMARKS' I write... SPIC + signature of the poor guy standing on the ground supervising my flight and hoping I don't do anything stupid? Or is PIC NAME still the name of the supervising instructor, even though he is not actually in the aircraft?
4. PPL(A) practical exam with a JAA Authorised Examiner - I log the time as PIC, but PIC NAME is the name of the Examiner (as he is in the aircraft with me), and REMARKS are filled with PIC(US) and Examiner's signature?
5. I have had 'internal test flights' in my FTO inbetween of various stages - usually it was before doing something solo, e.g. before first solo, before first cross country solo, etc, and with an instructor different that the one that gave me tuition on the given subject. Is this the same as no.2 or maybe different? The instructor would not touch the controls, just sit there and oversee if I'm doing ok. How do I log this type of flight?
6. The 'cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made' - this has to be logged as 3 entries, one for each leg?
Thanks in advance for your input.
@blommers:
I don't think I'll give up. It seems this is something I want to do.
I'm not going to rush it, and heaven forbid put myself into debt.
Here in Poland not as far as 6-7 years ago (was in highschool back then) one could say 'there are no jobs, no future in this country'. The unemployment rate among uni graduates (MSc, MA) was about 75%. It got better. Sure there are ups and downs in everything.
But in two, five, or ten years, I'll get there. Which is what I wish you all.
1. Now that I have my own logbook, I should go up to my FTO, get my 'internal' logbook from their archives, and transcribe each and every flight into my own (except for example circuit patterns, which I can block together in a single entry - "If the holder of a licence carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed thirty minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry."), right?
2. All the pilot function time from the beginning up to my first solo goes in the 'DUAL' column. In the 'PIC NAME' column goes the name of the instructor with whom I condutced those flights. Now - does every entry like that need to be countersigned by him in the 'REMARKS'? Or does this only apply to the next cases?
3. When I get to a point in which I am the sole occupant of the aircraft (first solo, circuit patterns, solo flight in training zones, and solo cross country) I log the time as PIC. 'PIC NAME' is my humble self, and in 'REMARKS' I write... SPIC + signature of the poor guy standing on the ground supervising my flight and hoping I don't do anything stupid? Or is PIC NAME still the name of the supervising instructor, even though he is not actually in the aircraft?
4. PPL(A) practical exam with a JAA Authorised Examiner - I log the time as PIC, but PIC NAME is the name of the Examiner (as he is in the aircraft with me), and REMARKS are filled with PIC(US) and Examiner's signature?
5. I have had 'internal test flights' in my FTO inbetween of various stages - usually it was before doing something solo, e.g. before first solo, before first cross country solo, etc, and with an instructor different that the one that gave me tuition on the given subject. Is this the same as no.2 or maybe different? The instructor would not touch the controls, just sit there and oversee if I'm doing ok. How do I log this type of flight?
6. The 'cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made' - this has to be logged as 3 entries, one for each leg?
Thanks in advance for your input.
@blommers:
I don't think I'll give up. It seems this is something I want to do.
I'm not going to rush it, and heaven forbid put myself into debt.
Here in Poland not as far as 6-7 years ago (was in highschool back then) one could say 'there are no jobs, no future in this country'. The unemployment rate among uni graduates (MSc, MA) was about 75%. It got better. Sure there are ups and downs in everything.
But in two, five, or ten years, I'll get there. Which is what I wish you all.
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1. Yes you should complete a separate entry for each flight. For circuit training it is also a separate entry but be sure to fill in the number of landings in the appropriate column.
2. Yes - all the time where an instructor is sitting beside you is logged as dual and his/her name is entered. It is important to have his/her signature in the remarks column along with the exercise number.
3. When solo you log time as PIC and enter your name but ensure that your instructor signs the remarks column and includes the exercise number as he/she is the one authorising the flight.
4. Skills test is logged as PIC and your name is entered however the examiner should sign and date your logbook with something like 'This is to certify that MichaelPL has undertaken the skills test for the award of a JAR PPL(A) and has successfully passed all stages' - signed examiner - license number - date etc.
5. Same as number 2.
6. Yes - three separate entries and ensure that you ask the two airfields visited to stamp and/or sign the entry in your logbook.
7. ..........and finally stay well clear of idiots like blommers whose negativity and lack of intelligence manifests itself in childish posts which add nothing to a thread whose subject is an honest and open request for advice.
Best of luck for the future.
2. Yes - all the time where an instructor is sitting beside you is logged as dual and his/her name is entered. It is important to have his/her signature in the remarks column along with the exercise number.
3. When solo you log time as PIC and enter your name but ensure that your instructor signs the remarks column and includes the exercise number as he/she is the one authorising the flight.
4. Skills test is logged as PIC and your name is entered however the examiner should sign and date your logbook with something like 'This is to certify that MichaelPL has undertaken the skills test for the award of a JAR PPL(A) and has successfully passed all stages' - signed examiner - license number - date etc.
5. Same as number 2.
6. Yes - three separate entries and ensure that you ask the two airfields visited to stamp and/or sign the entry in your logbook.
7. ..........and finally stay well clear of idiots like blommers whose negativity and lack of intelligence manifests itself in childish posts which add nothing to a thread whose subject is an honest and open request for advice.
Best of luck for the future.
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Right, one more question in regards to what has been written here.
Don't know if you guys have it the same, but here in Poland we do have a thing called 'proficiency check' every year. It's got nothing to do with revalidation of the license, as far as I know it is not mentioned in JAR-FCL (might be wrong though, correct me if that is the case).
It basically consist of a 'check ride' with an instructor of the FTO/aeroclub you're flying in.
So, first - is it something you do in your respective countries as well, or not? Second - do I log it as PIC (PICUS) as the instructor is just sitting there watching if I had not forgotten how to fly and will not crash their aircraft or as DUAL and put him as PIC?
I think it's similar to a situation when you want to rent an aircraft from an FTO you've never flown in before - you do have a valid license, but it's their right as the aircraft owner to have a look at what you can actually do before they rent you the plane...
Don't know if you guys have it the same, but here in Poland we do have a thing called 'proficiency check' every year. It's got nothing to do with revalidation of the license, as far as I know it is not mentioned in JAR-FCL (might be wrong though, correct me if that is the case).
It basically consist of a 'check ride' with an instructor of the FTO/aeroclub you're flying in.
So, first - is it something you do in your respective countries as well, or not? Second - do I log it as PIC (PICUS) as the instructor is just sitting there watching if I had not forgotten how to fly and will not crash their aircraft or as DUAL and put him as PIC?
I think it's similar to a situation when you want to rent an aircraft from an FTO you've never flown in before - you do have a valid license, but it's their right as the aircraft owner to have a look at what you can actually do before they rent you the plane...
Right, one more question in regards to what has been written here.
Don't know if you guys have it the same, but here in Poland we do have a thing called 'proficiency check' every year. It's got nothing to do with revalidation of the license, as far as I know it is not mentioned in JAR-FCL (might be wrong though, correct me if that is the case).
It basically consist of a 'check ride' with an instructor of the FTO/aeroclub you're flying in.
So, first - is it something you do in your respective countries as well, or not? Second - do I log it as PIC (PICUS) as the instructor is just sitting there watching if I had not forgotten how to fly and will not crash their aircraft or as DUAL and put him as PIC?
I think it's similar to a situation when you want to rent an aircraft from an FTO you've never flown in before - you do have a valid license, but it's their right as the aircraft owner to have a look at what you can actually do before they rent you the plane...
Don't know if you guys have it the same, but here in Poland we do have a thing called 'proficiency check' every year. It's got nothing to do with revalidation of the license, as far as I know it is not mentioned in JAR-FCL (might be wrong though, correct me if that is the case).
It basically consist of a 'check ride' with an instructor of the FTO/aeroclub you're flying in.
So, first - is it something you do in your respective countries as well, or not? Second - do I log it as PIC (PICUS) as the instructor is just sitting there watching if I had not forgotten how to fly and will not crash their aircraft or as DUAL and put him as PIC?
I think it's similar to a situation when you want to rent an aircraft from an FTO you've never flown in before - you do have a valid license, but it's their right as the aircraft owner to have a look at what you can actually do before they rent you the plane...
Most countries have some variation on that at intervals of 12-24 months - the norm is for the instructor to sign the entry in your logbook with their licence details.
JAR-FCL works on an hour with an instructor in the second half of each rolling 24 month period. Under JAR, you log it as dual.
G
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First (JAR - FCL) LogBook
Donalk, I found your posts to be very enlightening. I'm soon to have my PPL(A) flight test in a week or, two. I've been compiling my flights from FTO and, being my first ever LogBook, like Michael|PL, I was unsure about how to correctly fill out each SPIC Flight.
Thank You for asking the Questions Michael|PL,
& for Answering them Donalk.
Thank You for asking the Questions Michael|PL,
& for Answering them Donalk.
Last edited by Darren4Flight; 12th Aug 2010 at 23:22. Reason: Spelling
I write... SPIC + signature of the poor guy standing on the ground
I was unsure about how to correctly fill out each SPIC Flight.
