Will the terms and conditions in this industry ever stop eroding?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Nottingham
Age: 33
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will the terms and conditions in this industry ever stop eroding?
Hi,
As many of us on this forum are thinking about whether we should become commercial pilots I was wondering what the more experienced members on here think about the continual erosion of T&C's within this industry.
I look foreward to reading your replies.
Best Regards,
Afraz
As many of us on this forum are thinking about whether we should become commercial pilots I was wondering what the more experienced members on here think about the continual erosion of T&C's within this industry.
I look foreward to reading your replies.
Best Regards,
Afraz
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hey,
Yes if young pilots stop selling their souls to become a pilot and stop buying TR and line training. Their is no team spirit when it comes to T&C its every man for its own. Ok there are good people trying to change things but they are out numbered. A large low cost company is the best example for this when it comes to contract for new cadets and captains. And its spreading all over the sector. There are to much unemployed pilots who will do everything for a job so the only thing to do is wait untill there is an upturn and shortage of pilots ( the last will never happen there are always to many pilots). It looks like in the future being a pilot will stop to be work but a hobby where you pay them to fly like an aeroclub!!
Yes if young pilots stop selling their souls to become a pilot and stop buying TR and line training. Their is no team spirit when it comes to T&C its every man for its own. Ok there are good people trying to change things but they are out numbered. A large low cost company is the best example for this when it comes to contract for new cadets and captains. And its spreading all over the sector. There are to much unemployed pilots who will do everything for a job so the only thing to do is wait untill there is an upturn and shortage of pilots ( the last will never happen there are always to many pilots). It looks like in the future being a pilot will stop to be work but a hobby where you pay them to fly like an aeroclub!!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: FL450
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately and incredibly the world has been brainwashed into believing that flying airplanes is cheap!
Joe public totally accept paying $20 a day to park their car at the airport but expect to fly for $20 also. A week away will cost them $140 in parking but try to get $140 out of them for a ticket and they complain like mad.
Until and unless we excape this madness and educate people that flying costs money, huge money I fear little will change.
What other industry is there that is so highly regulated, requires millions to invest to get going, entrusts peoples lives yet struggles to return a 1 or 2% profit? That is why with a 5 or 10% downturn they are all in trouble.
All the time an hour with Mr Boeing costs less than on a bus or taxi the result is inevitable.
Joe public totally accept paying $20 a day to park their car at the airport but expect to fly for $20 also. A week away will cost them $140 in parking but try to get $140 out of them for a ticket and they complain like mad.
Until and unless we excape this madness and educate people that flying costs money, huge money I fear little will change.
What other industry is there that is so highly regulated, requires millions to invest to get going, entrusts peoples lives yet struggles to return a 1 or 2% profit? That is why with a 5 or 10% downturn they are all in trouble.
All the time an hour with Mr Boeing costs less than on a bus or taxi the result is inevitable.
Educated Hillbilly
Flying is no longer exclusive that is a very fair point KH.
But as for the SSTR and pay to fly issue; as I have stated in other posts the biggest thing that has contributed to the pay to fly culture is not the wannabes but the fact that most turboprops first officer jobs have low salaries and excessive bonds (Eastern, Air Southwest, 20k bond over four years, salary 20-22K a year, Atlantic 42K bond on the Electra, salary approx 22k).
Fact remains most FOs on a medium jets are still receiving a decent salary, so for many individuals the decision to self fund a type rating and line training is more preferable to taking a bond and low salary on a turbo prop.
Air southwest a few years back use to bond about 10K, Atlantic 25K bond on the Electra, so why in recent years have these bonds doubled in value.
Consider the price of gaining the experience to obtain an air taxi job,
FI rating: now 6-7000 pounds,
Instructing full time to gain 700 hours total time: minimal pay
IRI upgrade : 2000 (Instrument instructing to build the 100 hours IFR)
40 hours of multi engine hour building in the US, at least 5000 pounds (isn't that paying to fly?) .
Ok so may be lucky enough to build the time as a safety pilot on empty legs (but hey isn't that working for free)
Cost of getting the minimum experience for air taxi work:
12- 13000 pounds.
Add in the multi instrctor rating as most operators want more than the minimum 700 with 40 multi and the price becomes 15000 pounds.
So compare that to self funding a rating at 20K, a SSTR doesn't actually seem that bad an option.
I am not saying I agree with SSTR or pay for line training schemes but I can understand why many opt for this route.
But as for the SSTR and pay to fly issue; as I have stated in other posts the biggest thing that has contributed to the pay to fly culture is not the wannabes but the fact that most turboprops first officer jobs have low salaries and excessive bonds (Eastern, Air Southwest, 20k bond over four years, salary 20-22K a year, Atlantic 42K bond on the Electra, salary approx 22k).
Fact remains most FOs on a medium jets are still receiving a decent salary, so for many individuals the decision to self fund a type rating and line training is more preferable to taking a bond and low salary on a turbo prop.
Air southwest a few years back use to bond about 10K, Atlantic 25K bond on the Electra, so why in recent years have these bonds doubled in value.
Consider the price of gaining the experience to obtain an air taxi job,
FI rating: now 6-7000 pounds,
Instructing full time to gain 700 hours total time: minimal pay
IRI upgrade : 2000 (Instrument instructing to build the 100 hours IFR)
40 hours of multi engine hour building in the US, at least 5000 pounds (isn't that paying to fly?) .
Ok so may be lucky enough to build the time as a safety pilot on empty legs (but hey isn't that working for free)
Cost of getting the minimum experience for air taxi work:
12- 13000 pounds.
Add in the multi instrctor rating as most operators want more than the minimum 700 with 40 multi and the price becomes 15000 pounds.
So compare that to self funding a rating at 20K, a SSTR doesn't actually seem that bad an option.
I am not saying I agree with SSTR or pay for line training schemes but I can understand why many opt for this route.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: VHHH Ocean 2D
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Portsharbour,
That was the maths I went through before I did my SSTR. SSTR gets a lot of bad press because it is the only way into Ryanair.
But the OP is right. There are people out there prepared to pay 30'000 for a TR, even with the knowledge that the airline they are joining has one of the worst T&Cs. M'OL is laughing, obviously, and it means he can squeeze and squeeze whilst the number of wannabe pilots exceeds the number of positions.
But Portsharbour is correct, when you work out the maths, what you lose short terms you gain long term. My TR was paid for me by my dad-ex pilot, I won't deny that. But it got me a job on a 732 working in SE Asia and that got me a job on the 742F before my 22nd birthday. So I probably made up the TR cost 10-fold compared to if I flew GA building hours.
It is an interesting topic though Afraz (seems you have grown up my son from your posts earlier this year and last).
Perhaps "Kids" today aren't worried so much about material value as I honestly do believe that they know what they are getting themselves in for. Take the Cadet programme we have at Cx which recently opened its doors to those without a HK ID card. They will not get housing allowance. But the fact that they could be in a 777/744 or an A340 after 60 odd weeks of training is so attractive that it is not an issue for them. They will be happy living on top of a restaurant for 3 years.
And of course CX have picked up on this which is probably why they opened their doors. People really would do anything to fly so even in a large international airline like CX, they can afford to lower their T&Cs and yet still attract wannabees.
Anyway more importantly Afraz, where have you been? Would you like some advice on whether integrated is better than Mod? Only joking. Good luck with it all.
That was the maths I went through before I did my SSTR. SSTR gets a lot of bad press because it is the only way into Ryanair.
But the OP is right. There are people out there prepared to pay 30'000 for a TR, even with the knowledge that the airline they are joining has one of the worst T&Cs. M'OL is laughing, obviously, and it means he can squeeze and squeeze whilst the number of wannabe pilots exceeds the number of positions.
But Portsharbour is correct, when you work out the maths, what you lose short terms you gain long term. My TR was paid for me by my dad-ex pilot, I won't deny that. But it got me a job on a 732 working in SE Asia and that got me a job on the 742F before my 22nd birthday. So I probably made up the TR cost 10-fold compared to if I flew GA building hours.
It is an interesting topic though Afraz (seems you have grown up my son from your posts earlier this year and last).
Perhaps "Kids" today aren't worried so much about material value as I honestly do believe that they know what they are getting themselves in for. Take the Cadet programme we have at Cx which recently opened its doors to those without a HK ID card. They will not get housing allowance. But the fact that they could be in a 777/744 or an A340 after 60 odd weeks of training is so attractive that it is not an issue for them. They will be happy living on top of a restaurant for 3 years.
And of course CX have picked up on this which is probably why they opened their doors. People really would do anything to fly so even in a large international airline like CX, they can afford to lower their T&Cs and yet still attract wannabees.
Anyway more importantly Afraz, where have you been? Would you like some advice on whether integrated is better than Mod? Only joking. Good luck with it all.
