How does training compare to the 80s/90s?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How does training compare to the 80s/90s?
I'm interested in how the training over the last 20+ years has changed. Granted pay-to-fly schemes were probably non existent, but I'd be interested if self sponsored integrated was still a big thing/how established the modular training providers were/whether the low-cos have really boosted demand for pilots/any further thoughts
Educated Hillbilly
Fans,
The most significant change occured in 2002 with the implementation of JAA. Prior to this on the CAA system there were three main ways (excluding the military route) to get the CAA CPL/IR
1) Attend a CAP 509 course (I think that was the number, well something along that lines) which essentially is the old name for an integrated course.
Although some people did self fund these courses a very high percentage of these courses were sponsored by the airlines, at that point, British Midland, Brittania, Air 2000, Air UK and British Airways ran a combination of full and partial sponsorships.
2) The /self imporver route, on the self improver route you could obtain a BCPL (Basic Commercial) at 150 hours, this allowed paid work on single engine aircraft. On a BCPL by instructing (after doing an AFI rating), aerial photography, glider towing or para dropping you would hour build hours to gain 700 hours. At 700 hours the BCPL was upgraded to CPL. Most would then do the IR. On the self improver route you did not need to take an approved course for the IR, it was done on a training as required basis. Several QFIs may have had significant experience in teaching the IMC rating prior to taking the IR. This meant that any CPL/IR holder from the self improver route would have a minimum of 700 hours.
3) There were also BCPL - CPL upgrade courses this is probably more akin to the current modular route.
The other difference was that you could self study for your ATPL exams under the self improver route without requiring an approved ground school provider.
As an A-level student I was planning to go thorugh the Self improver route, but by the time I finished University JAA had been introduced.
Self sponsored type ratings, not as new as people think, BAC Express were probably the first offering SSTR in the UK (to my knowledge) charging about 8-10000 fot Shorts 360 ratings.
The most significant change occured in 2002 with the implementation of JAA. Prior to this on the CAA system there were three main ways (excluding the military route) to get the CAA CPL/IR
1) Attend a CAP 509 course (I think that was the number, well something along that lines) which essentially is the old name for an integrated course.
Although some people did self fund these courses a very high percentage of these courses were sponsored by the airlines, at that point, British Midland, Brittania, Air 2000, Air UK and British Airways ran a combination of full and partial sponsorships.
2) The /self imporver route, on the self improver route you could obtain a BCPL (Basic Commercial) at 150 hours, this allowed paid work on single engine aircraft. On a BCPL by instructing (after doing an AFI rating), aerial photography, glider towing or para dropping you would hour build hours to gain 700 hours. At 700 hours the BCPL was upgraded to CPL. Most would then do the IR. On the self improver route you did not need to take an approved course for the IR, it was done on a training as required basis. Several QFIs may have had significant experience in teaching the IMC rating prior to taking the IR. This meant that any CPL/IR holder from the self improver route would have a minimum of 700 hours.
3) There were also BCPL - CPL upgrade courses this is probably more akin to the current modular route.
The other difference was that you could self study for your ATPL exams under the self improver route without requiring an approved ground school provider.
As an A-level student I was planning to go thorugh the Self improver route, but by the time I finished University JAA had been introduced.
Self sponsored type ratings, not as new as people think, BAC Express were probably the first offering SSTR in the UK (to my knowledge) charging about 8-10000 fot Shorts 360 ratings.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: KGRB, but on the road about 1/2 the time.
Age: 61
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi!
A HUGE change in learning to fly today is that you can learn to fly at home.
The PC simulators now are FANTASTIC!
You can learn the whole cockpit setup, learn how to start the engine(s), and go through the whole training syllabus. You can shoot instrument approaches down to 200-1/2 in real-time weather, and interact with ATC and other pilots while flying.
Then, when you go to the airport for the first time, you are WAY ahead. You basically wouldn't even need instrument ground school for practical purposes, as you would know it all.
I wish I had those benefits when I started training!!!
cliff
NBO
A HUGE change in learning to fly today is that you can learn to fly at home.
The PC simulators now are FANTASTIC!
You can learn the whole cockpit setup, learn how to start the engine(s), and go through the whole training syllabus. You can shoot instrument approaches down to 200-1/2 in real-time weather, and interact with ATC and other pilots while flying.
Then, when you go to the airport for the first time, you are WAY ahead. You basically wouldn't even need instrument ground school for practical purposes, as you would know it all.
I wish I had those benefits when I started training!!!
cliff
NBO
I must disagree strongly with atpcliff's contention. My experience with students who have 'taught' themselves using PC flight games is that they have to unlearn bad habits, poor & incorrect techniques before they learn the correct way to do things. That costs the student time & money. There *are* good things that can be done with MS flightsim and the like, but it needs to be guided by an instructor and/or limited to practicing those things where the correct technique has already been taught - and not as a means for self-teaching.
As for how learning to fly has changed, it depends on where you are. When I learnt in Australia in the early '80s, a PPL was gained in two stages: A Restricted PPL and then an Unrestricted PPL.
The Restricted PPL was restricted to the training area & circuit and had all the privileges of a PPL except for those that required navigation. Navigation was the 2nd half of a complete PPL course, ending with a navigation flight test to have the restriction lifted. ie an 'Unrestricted' PPL. Send your RPPL in to the Dept. & they stamped 'Restriction Lifted' over those RPPL limitations pre-printed in the licence. All up, I think it was 45 hours minimum training, and 4 Dept. set exams sat at the school: Basic Aeronautical Knowledge sat for the RPPL, and Navigation, Meteorology and Flight Rules & Procedures sat for the UPPL
The Oz equivalents to the UK's 'self improver' and CAP509 courses required 175 hours and 150 hours respectively for a CPL. A NVFR was usually required for a CPL. There were Dept. exams for the CPL: Flight Rules & Procedures, Navigation, Meteorology, Aircraft Performance & Operation, Engines Systems & Instrumentation and finally, Principles of Flight. All exams were sat during one of several exam weeks scheduled during the year. CPL theory exams could be sat instead of the three UPPL exams.
There was a Senior Commercial Pilot Licence as the GA equivalent to the Airline Transport Pilot Licence. Same exams but you had to work for an airline to get the ATPL. Four exams were required: Air Law, Navigation, Meteorology and Flight Planning. Unlike the UK, Oz SCPL/ATPL exams could never substitute for CPL level exams. Of the 1500 hours required for the ATPL (was it 1000 hours for an SCPL? Anyone remember?), 400 had to be PIC.
Instrument Ratings were different to now. There were First Class & Second Class IRs for airlines, and Class 1 & Class 3 IRs for GA. A Class 3 IR was a bit more limiting compared to a Class 1 IR. Two theory exams: IFR Procedures, and Radio Navaids.
In the '90s the whole licencing system was changed.
RPPL was done away with, and a faux-RPPL was substituted. The faux-RPPL is called a General Flying Progress Test and relaxes some of the Student Pilot Licence limitations such as the prohibition against carrying passengers. Minimum training to a PPL was reduced to 40 hours.
A minimum 150 hour CPL syllabus was introduced that any flying school could use. The 175 hour CPL was changed to a 200 hour CPL. NVFR was no longer a prerequisite.
The SCPL was dropped and ATPL made available to everyone.
The IR changed with the removal of the airline/GA distinction by changing to a single Command IR and Co-pilot IR for all.
Exams have changed numerous times for all licence levels in terms of content, mix, format and availability. Buggered if know what the Oz equivalent of the CAA specify now. Who knows, maybe they do?
The regulatory authority has had so many changes in structure, organisation, authority and management I wouldn't be surprised if there's quite a corporate memory loss and resulting change in competence.
I think quality of instruction waxes & wanes to some extent over the years, depending on the job market. The fewer pilots from GA the airlines hire over extended periods allied with a vibrant GA industry then I think the better the overall quality of training for students due to more experienced people still to be found in GA. The less vibrant the GA industry coupled with high airline drain from GA then the worse the average quality of training. That doesn't mean that there aren't excellent instructors in GA during airline hiring booms, because there are. Equally, even in the vibrant GA/airlines not hiring times, there are still piss-poor instructors & schools. But overall, the balance cycles one way or the other.
As for how learning to fly has changed, it depends on where you are. When I learnt in Australia in the early '80s, a PPL was gained in two stages: A Restricted PPL and then an Unrestricted PPL.
The Restricted PPL was restricted to the training area & circuit and had all the privileges of a PPL except for those that required navigation. Navigation was the 2nd half of a complete PPL course, ending with a navigation flight test to have the restriction lifted. ie an 'Unrestricted' PPL. Send your RPPL in to the Dept. & they stamped 'Restriction Lifted' over those RPPL limitations pre-printed in the licence. All up, I think it was 45 hours minimum training, and 4 Dept. set exams sat at the school: Basic Aeronautical Knowledge sat for the RPPL, and Navigation, Meteorology and Flight Rules & Procedures sat for the UPPL
The Oz equivalents to the UK's 'self improver' and CAP509 courses required 175 hours and 150 hours respectively for a CPL. A NVFR was usually required for a CPL. There were Dept. exams for the CPL: Flight Rules & Procedures, Navigation, Meteorology, Aircraft Performance & Operation, Engines Systems & Instrumentation and finally, Principles of Flight. All exams were sat during one of several exam weeks scheduled during the year. CPL theory exams could be sat instead of the three UPPL exams.
There was a Senior Commercial Pilot Licence as the GA equivalent to the Airline Transport Pilot Licence. Same exams but you had to work for an airline to get the ATPL. Four exams were required: Air Law, Navigation, Meteorology and Flight Planning. Unlike the UK, Oz SCPL/ATPL exams could never substitute for CPL level exams. Of the 1500 hours required for the ATPL (was it 1000 hours for an SCPL? Anyone remember?), 400 had to be PIC.
Instrument Ratings were different to now. There were First Class & Second Class IRs for airlines, and Class 1 & Class 3 IRs for GA. A Class 3 IR was a bit more limiting compared to a Class 1 IR. Two theory exams: IFR Procedures, and Radio Navaids.
In the '90s the whole licencing system was changed.
RPPL was done away with, and a faux-RPPL was substituted. The faux-RPPL is called a General Flying Progress Test and relaxes some of the Student Pilot Licence limitations such as the prohibition against carrying passengers. Minimum training to a PPL was reduced to 40 hours.
A minimum 150 hour CPL syllabus was introduced that any flying school could use. The 175 hour CPL was changed to a 200 hour CPL. NVFR was no longer a prerequisite.
The SCPL was dropped and ATPL made available to everyone.
The IR changed with the removal of the airline/GA distinction by changing to a single Command IR and Co-pilot IR for all.
Exams have changed numerous times for all licence levels in terms of content, mix, format and availability. Buggered if know what the Oz equivalent of the CAA specify now. Who knows, maybe they do?
The regulatory authority has had so many changes in structure, organisation, authority and management I wouldn't be surprised if there's quite a corporate memory loss and resulting change in competence.
I think quality of instruction waxes & wanes to some extent over the years, depending on the job market. The fewer pilots from GA the airlines hire over extended periods allied with a vibrant GA industry then I think the better the overall quality of training for students due to more experienced people still to be found in GA. The less vibrant the GA industry coupled with high airline drain from GA then the worse the average quality of training. That doesn't mean that there aren't excellent instructors in GA during airline hiring booms, because there are. Equally, even in the vibrant GA/airlines not hiring times, there are still piss-poor instructors & schools. But overall, the balance cycles one way or the other.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 31st Aug 2009 at 15:16.
