Actual instrument vs. instrument (hood)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actual instrument vs. instrument (hood)
I have FAA and JAR licenses with instrument ratings. I have flown FAA licenses first and then I have done FAA-JAA conversion. I have all my flights in one logbook. There is two columns for instrument flights in my logbook. One is 'actual instrument' and another is 'instrument hood'.
I filed IFR flight plan for every flight during my FAA IR training. I also wore a foggles during FAA IR training. My FAA flight instructor said that I can use 'actual instrument'-column when I fly in IMC. Even I have IFR flight plan and there is radar contact with ATC and I fly in VMC, then I have 'instrument (hood)'-flight.
During my JAR training everything changed. If I had a IFR flight plan and I flew in VMC or IMC, the flight was 'actual instrument'. If I flew general handling with the foggles without IFR flight plan, then it was 'instrument (hood)' flight.
I know that this is really stupid and small detail. I also know that I could use one column for every IFR flight. I don't want separate logbooks for FAA and JAA flights. Do anybody have any solution how I should fill my logbook correctly?
I filed IFR flight plan for every flight during my FAA IR training. I also wore a foggles during FAA IR training. My FAA flight instructor said that I can use 'actual instrument'-column when I fly in IMC. Even I have IFR flight plan and there is radar contact with ATC and I fly in VMC, then I have 'instrument (hood)'-flight.
During my JAR training everything changed. If I had a IFR flight plan and I flew in VMC or IMC, the flight was 'actual instrument'. If I flew general handling with the foggles without IFR flight plan, then it was 'instrument (hood)' flight.
I know that this is really stupid and small detail. I also know that I could use one column for every IFR flight. I don't want separate logbooks for FAA and JAA flights. Do anybody have any solution how I should fill my logbook correctly?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not a JAA expert (infact i know next to nothing about instrument logging under JAA :P), but it would seem quite odd to me that you'd log actual instrument time during VMC just because you had an IFR flightplan. In that case 99.9% of the crews of the scheduled airline flights would be logging actual instrument - and i don't believe thats the case. 
In the US you log actual anytime weather or atmospheric conditions do not allow visual flight because, for example, the horizen is not visible. This could be due to flying inside clouds, flying over water on a moonless night, or just piss poor visibility. You don't necessarily have to be on an IFR flightplan to do this.
You log simulated instrument time anytime you have the foggles or another view limiting device on - regardless if your in VMC or IMC conditions. I did both my IR & CFI-I checkride in actual (IMC) conditions + a hood on and both times the examiners insisted i log as simulated as those were the conditions required.
I doubt this will be much different to JAA rules.
In the US you log actual anytime weather or atmospheric conditions do not allow visual flight because, for example, the horizen is not visible. This could be due to flying inside clouds, flying over water on a moonless night, or just piss poor visibility. You don't necessarily have to be on an IFR flightplan to do this.
You log simulated instrument time anytime you have the foggles or another view limiting device on - regardless if your in VMC or IMC conditions. I did both my IR & CFI-I checkride in actual (IMC) conditions + a hood on and both times the examiners insisted i log as simulated as those were the conditions required.
I doubt this will be much different to JAA rules.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: varies..a lot
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know if this helps you but every scheduled commercial flight I make ( even in total VFR conditions) is logged IFR! There is only 1 column for IFR and all scheduled commercial flights are IFR.
Well, the good thing in the US is you can log what ever you want after you have the requirements for the ATP in the book (yes, you have to be able to prove you're current) but 100% IFR will look interesting if you have to interview again.
61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
IFR Flight Conditions is defined in Part 1 as weather less than VFR.
Matt - I'm just amazed they made you wear a hood while IMC!
61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
IFR Flight Conditions is defined in Part 1 as weather less than VFR.
Matt - I'm just amazed they made you wear a hood while IMC!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Peaks
Age: 45
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its just different between JAA and FAA thats all.
All my flying is IFR because those are the rules by which I am flying (JAA). Much easier than 'in a cloud, oh, out a cloud, hand on back in, wait visual again, oooh look fog!'
All my flying is IFR because those are the rules by which I am flying (JAA). Much easier than 'in a cloud, oh, out a cloud, hand on back in, wait visual again, oooh look fog!'
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southampton
Age: 60
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The key point is that instrument time is logged "when operating the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments". Nice and easy.
Filing IFR simply determines by which RULES the flight is being conducted and does not reflect whether the flight is in IMC or VMC or whether the instruments were the sole means of operating the aircraft. You can of course fly in VMC whilst operating under IFR and still use your map.
Commercial aircraft are virtually impossible to fly to the accuracy required unless by sole use of the instruments.
Just as an aside, I only log instrument time for the sectors that I am PF. I guess this is standard practice though.
If you fly in the UK I would suggest using the CAA CAP407 logbook as it covers everything you could need and has very clear and concise instructions for each column.
Instrument flight " The column headed Instrument Flying is provided in order that flight time during which the holder manipulated the flying controls solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or properly simulated instrument flight conditions may be recorded. The time spent in practices in a ground trainer eg procedural trainer or flight simulator should NOT be recorded under Instrument Flying, but should be entered in the appropriate pages at the end of the log book."
Nuff said?
Filing IFR simply determines by which RULES the flight is being conducted and does not reflect whether the flight is in IMC or VMC or whether the instruments were the sole means of operating the aircraft. You can of course fly in VMC whilst operating under IFR and still use your map.
Commercial aircraft are virtually impossible to fly to the accuracy required unless by sole use of the instruments.
Just as an aside, I only log instrument time for the sectors that I am PF. I guess this is standard practice though.
If you fly in the UK I would suggest using the CAA CAP407 logbook as it covers everything you could need and has very clear and concise instructions for each column.
Instrument flight " The column headed Instrument Flying is provided in order that flight time during which the holder manipulated the flying controls solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or properly simulated instrument flight conditions may be recorded. The time spent in practices in a ground trainer eg procedural trainer or flight simulator should NOT be recorded under Instrument Flying, but should be entered in the appropriate pages at the end of the log book."
Nuff said?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: varies..a lot
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IrishJetDriver,
All my time is logged as IFR time, I just differentiate between PF and PNF, it is an IFR flight, therefore no other column to log the time in. Pretty sure all my colleagues do the same.
:-)
All my time is logged as IFR time, I just differentiate between PF and PNF, it is an IFR flight, therefore no other column to log the time in. Pretty sure all my colleagues do the same.
:-)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep thats how we do it at our outfit as well.
AFAIK logging instrument time is really only of any relevance for those pesky application forms. Once you get your ATPL then its plain sailing and commonsense prevails. Perhaps some smaller operators running single engine/single pilot IFR might like to see a split of the hours on your CV but I can't really see the relevance otherwise.
AFAIK logging instrument time is really only of any relevance for those pesky application forms. Once you get your ATPL then its plain sailing and commonsense prevails. Perhaps some smaller operators running single engine/single pilot IFR might like to see a split of the hours on your CV but I can't really see the relevance otherwise.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southampton
Age: 60
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All my flying is IFR however as i'm only "manipulating the controls" when PF I only log IF time when PF.
My CAA log book has columns that allow the flight time block to block to be recorded and also the IF time for that flight (take-off to touchdown) to be recorded.
Guess it can depend on the log book though
My CAA log book has columns that allow the flight time block to block to be recorded and also the IF time for that flight (take-off to touchdown) to be recorded.
Guess it can depend on the log book though
Commercial aircraft are virtually impossible to fly to the accuracy required unless by sole use of the instruments.
