Pre-CPL Concerns
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Pre-CPL Concerns
Hi All,
I am almost ready to start the Flying part of the CPL but I'm getting a little concerned about it whether I'll make the grade or not.
I've spoke to quite a few of my friends who have gone though it all and come out with fATPLs etc etc and they've told me not to worry about it, I've read a few posts on here that a few students have taken over 40hrs to just get their CPL
But on the same token I've also read that it's not really a problem to get it done in the minimum time.
I've already made my mind up as to were I'll do the course and one of the instructors has told me that if I'm a good PPL then there will be no problems.
But what constitutes a good PPL I wonder ? I've still got a few more hours to do before the required 150 TT and I'm not really wasting a lot of my HB time by burning holes in the sky, I've been getting better at my Nav and handling etc ( I hope )
Like most I'm really on counting on passing my CPL in the min time frame as I've not got a bottomless pit of money like most of us I suppose, is there anything else that I should be doing to hit the board running so to speak when the CPL finally commences.
Cheers
SB001
I am almost ready to start the Flying part of the CPL but I'm getting a little concerned about it whether I'll make the grade or not.
I've spoke to quite a few of my friends who have gone though it all and come out with fATPLs etc etc and they've told me not to worry about it, I've read a few posts on here that a few students have taken over 40hrs to just get their CPL
But on the same token I've also read that it's not really a problem to get it done in the minimum time.I've already made my mind up as to were I'll do the course and one of the instructors has told me that if I'm a good PPL then there will be no problems.
But what constitutes a good PPL I wonder ? I've still got a few more hours to do before the required 150 TT and I'm not really wasting a lot of my HB time by burning holes in the sky, I've been getting better at my Nav and handling etc ( I hope )
Like most I'm really on counting on passing my CPL in the min time frame as I've not got a bottomless pit of money like most of us I suppose, is there anything else that I should be doing to hit the board running so to speak when the CPL finally commences.
Cheers
SB001
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CPL preparation
It's a good question. I am an 80hr PPL just about to start the GroundSchool via distance learning so I'm a fair way off Speedbird's position.
But there does seem to be very little advice out there about how to maximise hour building and this valuable preparation time to give the pilot the best possible preparation for undertaking a CPL course.
There is the CAA advice on the CPL skills test and of course the LASORS information on the minimum requirements for a CPL course but little else out there, even if one were prepared to shell out cash for a book on the subject.
Any advice?
But there does seem to be very little advice out there about how to maximise hour building and this valuable preparation time to give the pilot the best possible preparation for undertaking a CPL course.
There is the CAA advice on the CPL skills test and of course the LASORS information on the minimum requirements for a CPL course but little else out there, even if one were prepared to shell out cash for a book on the subject.
Any advice?
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I think the minimum hours thing depends on whether you're doing the combined CPL/MEP or not. Almost everyone I've seen go that route has taken way more hours than those who took it in a single.
My humble advice would be to practice things like:
VFR navigation. Everyone in the real world uses GPS, but keep on top of timings, your preferred course correction technique (closing angle is easy to use, but some still retain a fetish for things like 1in60).
Diversions. Try and learn to do them without rulers and protractors. If you drop your gear during the test you're stuffed. Draw a freehand line on the chart, guestimate the heading and turn onto it, then deal with things like ETAs and wind corrections. If you feel you can't cope without rulers, use a combined ruler/protractor like those available from Pooleys.
Position fixes. Get yourself some VORTRACs from Transair and affix one to each VOR in the test area. They make the task a doddle.
Tolerances. Try to keep yourself as accurate as possible in terms of heading and altitude. +/- 50ft and 5deg isn't too hard in calm conditions.
Memorise emergency procedures and don't forget the verbal briefs before take-off (how the seatbelts work, where the first aid kit is, what you'll do in the event of an EFATO etc).
Don't forget to put the gear down.
My humble advice would be to practice things like:
VFR navigation. Everyone in the real world uses GPS, but keep on top of timings, your preferred course correction technique (closing angle is easy to use, but some still retain a fetish for things like 1in60).
Diversions. Try and learn to do them without rulers and protractors. If you drop your gear during the test you're stuffed. Draw a freehand line on the chart, guestimate the heading and turn onto it, then deal with things like ETAs and wind corrections. If you feel you can't cope without rulers, use a combined ruler/protractor like those available from Pooleys.
Position fixes. Get yourself some VORTRACs from Transair and affix one to each VOR in the test area. They make the task a doddle.
Tolerances. Try to keep yourself as accurate as possible in terms of heading and altitude. +/- 50ft and 5deg isn't too hard in calm conditions.
Memorise emergency procedures and don't forget the verbal briefs before take-off (how the seatbelts work, where the first aid kit is, what you'll do in the event of an EFATO etc).
Don't forget to put the gear down.
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Shunter.
I'm also just about to start my hour building toward my CPL, your advice is just what i needed to read. I think concentrating on what you said will help in achieving the required standard a lot. Not to mention, a lot of confidence come test day!
Thanks
I'm also just about to start my hour building toward my CPL, your advice is just what i needed to read. I think concentrating on what you said will help in achieving the required standard a lot. Not to mention, a lot of confidence come test day!
Thanks
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Make friends with a CPL examiner (buy him/her beer in club bar).
One day slip into conversation that you would really like it if they would come flying with you one day.
All CPL examiners that I have met love to fly and love to talk.
You'll get valuable feedback and lots of advice.
BTW Shunters advice is excellent.
One day slip into conversation that you would really like it if they would come flying with you one day.
All CPL examiners that I have met love to fly and love to talk.
You'll get valuable feedback and lots of advice.
BTW Shunters advice is excellent.
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Honestly I found the CPL very similar to the PPL. The only real difference is that it is a slightly different mind set. With a PPL you are kind of buzzing about and enjoying yourself, the CPL it is more commercially minded going from A-B. The actual flying and skills test is very very similar. The major learning curve is the IR training. This is a totally different type of flying and requires a lot of work to get to the required standard!
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Cheers guys, your feedback is very welcome etc, i will be doing my CPL all on a Complex single I.e Arrow hopefully, then £££££££s permitting doing the MEP later on after doing some PPL Instruction.
Thanks again.
SB001
Thanks again.
SB001
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im in the middle of the atpls just now and have some some of the same concerns regarding the CPL. for those who have done the CPL, could you give us an insight into how strict the examiners are with regards to times/headings in the nav? also what is examined in the test? is it similar to the PPl?
thanks in advance
thanks in advance
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Hi all,
I'm currently about two thirds of the way through my CPL, but can offer the following advice for those who are hours building and or just about to start their course.
1. During your hours building take it right back to basics, don't bother with a GPS, because you will need to be confident in your ability to navigate visually to a good standard. If you know where you intend to train, ask them what's their preferred nav technique eg. 1/4, 1/2 3/4 distance marks or 6 minute marks; methods of regaining track, these days standard closing angle seems to be a favourite and use them with a clock, compass and map!
2. Once you get into the swing of practicing visual nav, set yourself smaller targets in order to practice turning point identification using big lead in's to small features, and look for unambiguous features so you can positively identify things.
3. ETA's, practice setting and revising ETA's. There or thereabouts, give or take 5 minutes doesn't cut it at CPL level, I aim for +/- 30 seconds.
4. Stump up the £120 or so every so often (every 25 hours maybe) to install an instructor next to you and go out and practice stalls and unusual attitudes. Don't be afraid to ask them to be critical. Even the basics such as APT and PAT transitioning between climbs, descents and S/L get picked up at CPL level.
5. Do more Nav, but talk to as much controlled airspace as you can. Do some zone crossings and Matz penetrations. I have seen one gent following cheap hours building in the states struggle with R/T because 100 hours later, he'd forgotten how hectic UK R/T can be and how little space we have in our airspace. There's enough to remember/learn without blowing £165 per hour at best on a single or £235+ on the twin if your R/T is letting you down.
6. Download the CPL standards document from the CAA website, take note of the tolerances allowed during the CPL flight test and work towards them on every flight you make.
7. All that study you did for your exams......... re-read the bits that pertain to operating a light single/twin commercially. Met, PofF, Powerplants etc. all contain useful stuff such as icing, mass and balance, performance calculations, weather fronts, decoding TAFF's etc. It's safe to say stuff such as climatology and the systems on a 737 are not applicable now, but there's plenty which is.
8. Get hold of a copy of LASORS (or if you can cope with it download it from the CAA website) as it contains a lot of useful info about licencing as well as gems concerning VFR Nav, operating twins and icing.
9. Make use of the CAA's web site, documents such as the ANO are downloadable. Whilst you may not need to know about the vast majority of it, you will need to know the priviliges of the CPL, VMC criteria and classes of airspace.
10. Captaincy. It's the biggest single difference between PPL and CPL. With a PPL the instructor will usually direct if the weather is suitable or not etc. You will now be expected to take on the role of captain of an aircraft engaged in a commercial flight. That means whilst your instructor has the ultimate go/no go responsibility, you need to be willing to take decisions. I've completed nav's during my training in 40kt winds aloft and where the crosswind on takeoff was just short of our limit. Nothing scary, but there weren't many people airbourne that day.
As many have said, take the captaincy away and all of the manouevers (with the exception of the instrument flying section) are pretty much what you would find in a PPL syllabus.
So there's no rocket science. It's the same old stuff, just the bar's a little higher.
Why do some people take up to 40 hours? I don't know, there can be all sorts of reasons from weather, currency, problems with finance, aircraft tech issues, clashes with instructors..... the list goes on.
What I don't figure though is why someone wouldn't want to use 100 hours of flying time to prepare as much as they can. The CPL is not an attendance only course, it does require effort, but thus far it seems to favour those who put the effort in. I for one wouldn't be worried, but I would treat it with the respect it deserves. After all it's a professional licence.
Finally there are a couple of CPL diaries/blogs out there. If you have the time take a read, at least you'll know what you're letting yourself in for!
Regards,
Obs
I'm currently about two thirds of the way through my CPL, but can offer the following advice for those who are hours building and or just about to start their course.
1. During your hours building take it right back to basics, don't bother with a GPS, because you will need to be confident in your ability to navigate visually to a good standard. If you know where you intend to train, ask them what's their preferred nav technique eg. 1/4, 1/2 3/4 distance marks or 6 minute marks; methods of regaining track, these days standard closing angle seems to be a favourite and use them with a clock, compass and map!
2. Once you get into the swing of practicing visual nav, set yourself smaller targets in order to practice turning point identification using big lead in's to small features, and look for unambiguous features so you can positively identify things.
3. ETA's, practice setting and revising ETA's. There or thereabouts, give or take 5 minutes doesn't cut it at CPL level, I aim for +/- 30 seconds.
4. Stump up the £120 or so every so often (every 25 hours maybe) to install an instructor next to you and go out and practice stalls and unusual attitudes. Don't be afraid to ask them to be critical. Even the basics such as APT and PAT transitioning between climbs, descents and S/L get picked up at CPL level.
5. Do more Nav, but talk to as much controlled airspace as you can. Do some zone crossings and Matz penetrations. I have seen one gent following cheap hours building in the states struggle with R/T because 100 hours later, he'd forgotten how hectic UK R/T can be and how little space we have in our airspace. There's enough to remember/learn without blowing £165 per hour at best on a single or £235+ on the twin if your R/T is letting you down.
6. Download the CPL standards document from the CAA website, take note of the tolerances allowed during the CPL flight test and work towards them on every flight you make.
7. All that study you did for your exams......... re-read the bits that pertain to operating a light single/twin commercially. Met, PofF, Powerplants etc. all contain useful stuff such as icing, mass and balance, performance calculations, weather fronts, decoding TAFF's etc. It's safe to say stuff such as climatology and the systems on a 737 are not applicable now, but there's plenty which is.
8. Get hold of a copy of LASORS (or if you can cope with it download it from the CAA website) as it contains a lot of useful info about licencing as well as gems concerning VFR Nav, operating twins and icing.
9. Make use of the CAA's web site, documents such as the ANO are downloadable. Whilst you may not need to know about the vast majority of it, you will need to know the priviliges of the CPL, VMC criteria and classes of airspace.
10. Captaincy. It's the biggest single difference between PPL and CPL. With a PPL the instructor will usually direct if the weather is suitable or not etc. You will now be expected to take on the role of captain of an aircraft engaged in a commercial flight. That means whilst your instructor has the ultimate go/no go responsibility, you need to be willing to take decisions. I've completed nav's during my training in 40kt winds aloft and where the crosswind on takeoff was just short of our limit. Nothing scary, but there weren't many people airbourne that day.
As many have said, take the captaincy away and all of the manouevers (with the exception of the instrument flying section) are pretty much what you would find in a PPL syllabus.
So there's no rocket science. It's the same old stuff, just the bar's a little higher.
Why do some people take up to 40 hours? I don't know, there can be all sorts of reasons from weather, currency, problems with finance, aircraft tech issues, clashes with instructors..... the list goes on.
What I don't figure though is why someone wouldn't want to use 100 hours of flying time to prepare as much as they can. The CPL is not an attendance only course, it does require effort, but thus far it seems to favour those who put the effort in. I for one wouldn't be worried, but I would treat it with the respect it deserves. After all it's a professional licence.
Finally there are a couple of CPL diaries/blogs out there. If you have the time take a read, at least you'll know what you're letting yourself in for!
Regards,
Obs
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Standards document 03 tells you all you need to know.
Torerances are 'minimum' standards, you should aim to stay well within. Examiners usually brief that straying from the tolerances does not result in immediate failure, provided you make a smooth correction as soon as possible. i.e. don't spill the Gin and Tonic.
If you do anything dangerous or illegal during the test you will fail the relevant section. If you make a mistake, not necessarily, it depends on how you rectify it. The CPL is all about CAPTAINCY and AIRMANSHIP.
Advice for the course itself:
Listen to your instructor, ask lots of questions, back-seat as many flights as you can. Chair fly frequently. Know the aeroplane by heart, know all the emergency drills by heart, and the speeds, read the POH thoroughly, know what every single button and switch does, and how to operate it properly. Prepare nav flights thoroughly, and as far ahead as possible - have a plan A, B, and C. (I have seen people fall apart spectacularly when plan A fails, because they never thought what if??). Listen to the examiners briefing, and ask questions. Make a good first impression. Don't 'brain dump' all your ATPL knowledge, especially the regulations, M&B and performance stuff. The examiner wants you to treat him like a fare paying passenger.
Good luck.
Torerances are 'minimum' standards, you should aim to stay well within. Examiners usually brief that straying from the tolerances does not result in immediate failure, provided you make a smooth correction as soon as possible. i.e. don't spill the Gin and Tonic.
If you do anything dangerous or illegal during the test you will fail the relevant section. If you make a mistake, not necessarily, it depends on how you rectify it. The CPL is all about CAPTAINCY and AIRMANSHIP.
Advice for the course itself:
Listen to your instructor, ask lots of questions, back-seat as many flights as you can. Chair fly frequently. Know the aeroplane by heart, know all the emergency drills by heart, and the speeds, read the POH thoroughly, know what every single button and switch does, and how to operate it properly. Prepare nav flights thoroughly, and as far ahead as possible - have a plan A, B, and C. (I have seen people fall apart spectacularly when plan A fails, because they never thought what if??). Listen to the examiners briefing, and ask questions. Make a good first impression. Don't 'brain dump' all your ATPL knowledge, especially the regulations, M&B and performance stuff. The examiner wants you to treat him like a fare paying passenger.
Good luck.
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Not wishing to burst the bubble or to patronise, but have you seen the job market at the moment? That should be your pre CPL concern, even instructor courses are backlogged for months throughout the country and no schools recruiting.
Back to the point, as has been mentioned, structured hour building flying with an instructor every 10-15hrs or so will prepare you well for the CPL.
Back to the point, as has been mentioned, structured hour building flying with an instructor every 10-15hrs or so will prepare you well for the CPL.
Mordecai makes a very valid point. During the test, the examiner really doesn't want to hear you 'patter' through everything you are doing. It's a 'commercial' flight test, and so you wouldn't expect the captain of your aircraft to talk you through everything he's doing.
Structured hour building is the best idea. Take the PPL skills and hone them. It's not a black art, passing the CPL test, but smooth, accurate flying is what he's looking for. There are quite a few examiners who post on here so they'll tell you what they're looking for.
Another point for the test, if you fail a section early on, I know it's not easy to do this, but try to put it behind you and concentrate only on the next section. Aslo, i'm sure if you mess up somethig like a steep turn etc, I can't see why you couldn't say 'look, that was rubbish, can I try that again' Obviously time constraints might not allow this.
If you hour build, take an instructor or even an experienced pilot (CPL etc) Some of us are quite happy to go flying and give advice if wanted.
Just enjoy it. The worst part of the test is the walk back to the debrief. He won't give anything away until you're seated and going over the post flight debrief. Seems like forever. Good Luck.
Structured hour building is the best idea. Take the PPL skills and hone them. It's not a black art, passing the CPL test, but smooth, accurate flying is what he's looking for. There are quite a few examiners who post on here so they'll tell you what they're looking for.
Another point for the test, if you fail a section early on, I know it's not easy to do this, but try to put it behind you and concentrate only on the next section. Aslo, i'm sure if you mess up somethig like a steep turn etc, I can't see why you couldn't say 'look, that was rubbish, can I try that again' Obviously time constraints might not allow this.
If you hour build, take an instructor or even an experienced pilot (CPL etc) Some of us are quite happy to go flying and give advice if wanted.
Just enjoy it. The worst part of the test is the walk back to the debrief. He won't give anything away until you're seated and going over the post flight debrief. Seems like forever. Good Luck.
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When I did my IMC and PPL I was given a caa sheet that had what was going to be tested and what the allowed deviations ie heading height are.
Had a search through the caa web site but cant find one for CPL (and IR if poss) anyone know if there is one and where a copy might be.
obs cop thats great info and will structuring my hb much more thank you.
edit
found it
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_fcl_03_a.pdf
added link if it helps the OP
Had a search through the caa web site but cant find one for CPL (and IR if poss) anyone know if there is one and where a copy might be.
obs cop thats great info and will structuring my hb much more thank you.
edit
found it
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_fcl_03_a.pdf
added link if it helps the OP
Last edited by igarratt; 24th May 2009 at 08:42.
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Good advice about taking an instructor with you every so often while hour building.
Most will do it in an 'unofficial' capacity for £20 cash or a few beers.
Do your CPL over as short a time as possible ...rule No1!!
I used to instruct CPL and it was amazing how far students fell back if they had long or even shortish lapses.
An IMC does help if you can afford one in advance, it may save you a few quid in the long run.
good luck
Most will do it in an 'unofficial' capacity for £20 cash or a few beers.
Do your CPL over as short a time as possible ...rule No1!!
I used to instruct CPL and it was amazing how far students fell back if they had long or even shortish lapses.
An IMC does help if you can afford one in advance, it may save you a few quid in the long run.
good luck
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What I don't figure though is why someone wouldn't want to use 100 hours of flying time to prepare as much as they can. The CPL is not an attendance only course, it does require effort, but thus far it seems to favour those who put the effort in. I for one wouldn't be worried, but I would treat it with the respect it deserves. After all it's a professional licence.
People wasting their hour building doing it on the cheap (Aussie Air springs to mind)- and then thinking just turning up will get their pilot's licence totally unprepared.
Also a complete lack of the idea that this is a job and a profession! - Treat the CPL like a professional job and you'll do great. Think of yourself as a student and you'll struggle.
