Have I Been Stupid - OFT
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I had not been flying for around 16 years, and I needed to retake my PPL first before I could go further with anything.
I did have around 120 hours from 16 to 20 years ago, besides that nothing!
According to LASORS, it was fly as required + all theory exams again.
I used UK school, bought a block of 20 hours - after around 13 hours my instructor told me I could/should do the skills test.
I said I did not feel confident enough to do it yet, and wanted another 4 -5 hours - morale of the story - he was an honest instructor and school, who did not want to milk me for what they could. If they had told me 25 hours, I probably still would have done it.
Not making this a UK vs USA, or Europe vs USA, but truth be told in the US, it is more likely then not that I would have been ripped off.
It also seems that many who write on these forums, are self serving - have an agenda. Some are honest about who they are, others not! The guy from EAA was honest enough in PPRUNE, however did not mean that the quote he gave me was "honest"
I do not mind paying for quality, that's why I rather fly a PA28 then a C152, the money I save on different aircrafts is not worth the dislike I have for the C152 - it is a crappy aircraft.
Personally I do not like the Cessna at all.
What kills VFR flights in the UK is the weather!
As Pilot Chick just mention, it will be more expensive then you expect - and when it comes to US advertisement I have learnt not to believe one dot of it! It is all BS!
I did have around 120 hours from 16 to 20 years ago, besides that nothing!
According to LASORS, it was fly as required + all theory exams again.
I used UK school, bought a block of 20 hours - after around 13 hours my instructor told me I could/should do the skills test.
I said I did not feel confident enough to do it yet, and wanted another 4 -5 hours - morale of the story - he was an honest instructor and school, who did not want to milk me for what they could. If they had told me 25 hours, I probably still would have done it.
Not making this a UK vs USA, or Europe vs USA, but truth be told in the US, it is more likely then not that I would have been ripped off.
It also seems that many who write on these forums, are self serving - have an agenda. Some are honest about who they are, others not! The guy from EAA was honest enough in PPRUNE, however did not mean that the quote he gave me was "honest"
I do not mind paying for quality, that's why I rather fly a PA28 then a C152, the money I save on different aircrafts is not worth the dislike I have for the C152 - it is a crappy aircraft.
Personally I do not like the Cessna at all.
What kills VFR flights in the UK is the weather!
As Pilot Chick just mention, it will be more expensive then you expect - and when it comes to US advertisement I have learnt not to believe one dot of it! It is all BS!
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Hi there, welcome to Pprune.
So how much is the deposit anyway? Anything less than say $500 is pocket change in aviation so you might as well let it pass.
The price quoted seems a bit high for all the hassle... costs about the same as doing it in the UK, Spain, France, or Greece (or Germany, or ...)
Getting a PPL is easier than getting a car licence, so shouldn't take you multiple months unless you only fly at weekends. And of course, subject to student motivation/ability and instructor competence.
What I'm getting at, get on the car next weekend and visit a few aerodromes in your area, see what they have to offer. Good luck.
So how much is the deposit anyway? Anything less than say $500 is pocket change in aviation so you might as well let it pass.
The price quoted seems a bit high for all the hassle... costs about the same as doing it in the UK, Spain, France, or Greece (or Germany, or ...)
Getting a PPL is easier than getting a car licence, so shouldn't take you multiple months unless you only fly at weekends. And of course, subject to student motivation/ability and instructor competence.
What I'm getting at, get on the car next weekend and visit a few aerodromes in your area, see what they have to offer. Good luck.
Last edited by LH2; 14th Apr 2009 at 16:10. Reason: typo
The guy from EAA was honest enough in PPRUNE, however did not mean that the quote he gave me was "honest"
I can only quote the following:
you are, of course, 100% correct in your comment that it's unfair for the schools to price based on minimum - but "you" (the student populous) have generated this yourselves, as the VAST majority of you are only concerned with promised price and time to complete.
You (the student populous) have zero interest in quality - you may say so in your posts, but you always default to the quickest/cheapest in the end.
The schools have to compete with each other for your business, so they all have to advertise in the same way. It is, of course, very possible to complete in the time - it used to be 35 hours if you completed in less than six months, and people made it easily. Attending a residential course and going over 45 hours really does highlight some problem - with either the school or the student.
You (the student populous) all assume that you WILL finish in minimum hours, will finish by a given date (and already have your cheapest cost, non adjustable return flight tickets booked for the day after). Most of you have your next course booked to start three days after that.
If a school TELLS you that you will go over on the hours, then you post on here saying that they are ripping you off.
Same as "hour building" - to the pilots, it's a hurdle that has to be overcome and some/many of you will (rather stupidly) fly an extra 100 hours of worthless local trips down the coast (or well known routes, to well known airfields, to meet your buddies that have just flown in loose formation with you) immediately after gaining the PPL, and before the ATPL groundschool.....and even that groundschool you choose based on the best question bank to learn so you can tick boxes in the exams, rather than LEARNING the material.
It's done that way because it's viewed as cheapest, quickest, most fun. It's of zero value other than entries in a log book.
It's supposed to be "experience building", and should involve increasingly tasking your self to ever tightening limits - so that, by the time, you turn up for the CPL course, it's a 'walk in the park'.
I've often thought of offering a service of riding with you during your experience building (whioch you log as P1, of course) and progressing from an advisory passenger to "beating the out of you" towards the end.
30 hours maybe, of your 100, at...say $50 an hour....but I bet none of you would consider paying the extra $1,500 in order to "get it right".
You are only interested in advertised price and advertised time - hence your post (come to think of it).
You (the student populous) have zero interest in quality - you may say so in your posts, but you always default to the quickest/cheapest in the end.
The schools have to compete with each other for your business, so they all have to advertise in the same way. It is, of course, very possible to complete in the time - it used to be 35 hours if you completed in less than six months, and people made it easily. Attending a residential course and going over 45 hours really does highlight some problem - with either the school or the student.
You (the student populous) all assume that you WILL finish in minimum hours, will finish by a given date (and already have your cheapest cost, non adjustable return flight tickets booked for the day after). Most of you have your next course booked to start three days after that.
If a school TELLS you that you will go over on the hours, then you post on here saying that they are ripping you off.
Same as "hour building" - to the pilots, it's a hurdle that has to be overcome and some/many of you will (rather stupidly) fly an extra 100 hours of worthless local trips down the coast (or well known routes, to well known airfields, to meet your buddies that have just flown in loose formation with you) immediately after gaining the PPL, and before the ATPL groundschool.....and even that groundschool you choose based on the best question bank to learn so you can tick boxes in the exams, rather than LEARNING the material.
It's done that way because it's viewed as cheapest, quickest, most fun. It's of zero value other than entries in a log book.
It's supposed to be "experience building", and should involve increasingly tasking your self to ever tightening limits - so that, by the time, you turn up for the CPL course, it's a 'walk in the park'.
I've often thought of offering a service of riding with you during your experience building (whioch you log as P1, of course) and progressing from an advisory passenger to "beating the out of you" towards the end.
30 hours maybe, of your 100, at...say $50 an hour....but I bet none of you would consider paying the extra $1,500 in order to "get it right".
You are only interested in advertised price and advertised time - hence your post (come to think of it).
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(Sorry for double post, but to tired to write another post for this thread, belives it covers similar areas anyway)
First regarding the EFT offer - does not include flight review, and I love this bit "Price Subject to Change without notice"
50 hours completed with 10 days!
Honestly what kind of constructive flying can you complete within 10 days - at average 5 hours a day? Something that would be NOTHING else then burning holes in the sky!
And are these 50 block hours open for everybody? Or just for CPL students with EFT? Not really clear from their site. Still the breakdown of the price makes it around £4000 + travel/flight review!
Back to EAA, is simply asked the opinion of fellow PPRune'rs what their opinion was of $1900 for flight review!
Add this to any hour build packages, and result is there is NO "Savings" going to the USA anymore.
Be honest, you want to go to the US, to get a new experience, but not solely to enhance your flying skills, not because you want to save money to be able to get more hours for the least amount of money.
Is it wrong that pilots want most hours for the least amount of Pounds/Dollars?
The flight schools want most amount of Pounds/Dollars for their operation, so they can be profitable.
I do not have a problem with this, that is not my point!
However let's be honest, so everybody can make their own judgment and opinion, in the current climate going to the USA for flight traing has more negatives then positives, of course plenty of posters are showing they are getting worried that posts here are being read by potential students/hour builders, who they might loose now, as they are presented with the real facts.
The only advantage Florida has is the sun and girls, which itself is not a bad thing - however the example above from EFT, 50 hours within 10 days, you probably won't see much of either.
As somebody else pointed out earlier, what about the quality of hour building? However the schools set out these rules for 3 reasons, they want as much money as possible in the shortest possible time, they do not care if the flying is beneficial for the pilot, and they will get their money regardless if you complete the 50 hours in the period given by them.
However the flight schools should be carefull now, because I hope more and more people will start using their IQ, and not just their wallet. In these economic times people have to be more carefull anyway.
There is NOTHING to save with regards to money to train in the USA for a JAA CPL/IR/ME - I am not going to present the calculations again, already done that in the past. People can work it out themselves.
There is very little if anything to save with hour building 50 to 100 hours, if more maybe a little.
The experience of flying in the USA will not be very beneficial for UK flying, weather, climate different. And that brings us back to the quality of flying - weather conditions in the UK are much more challenging, I have been flying in Scandinavia and UK, very different countries to fly in, bought have thogught me a lot in each their way.
As mentioned in another post, what good is flying 50 hours in CAVOK, ++ Visibily more then 10Km?
Is that going to make you a better pilot? Make you better to understand weather forecasts, etc.
I believe a US PPL (Florida based) would struggle more coming here to the UK to fly, then a JAR PPL (UK) flying in Florida!
If I or anyone else wants to go to hour build in the US, let's get it straight - it is for a new experience, see something new, and be able to make something constructive of the flights, planning and debriefing. However the schools have modelled the hour building like a "red light district concept" - Quickly in, and get out ASP after you have paid them for their 50 hours.
I can get 50 hours in Norway for $7000, with NO TIME PRESSURE, no flight review, and I have friends I can live at for free, and in well maintained clean aircrafts. (PA 28, C-172) and £50 FR - ticket to Oslo. In the UK similar package will cost a bit more - for both these last alternatives I am able to plan it/schedule all myself - and to make the optimal of each flight for my own benefit.
All others seems to be Rush and Go, not even time for Touch and Go!
All in all the prices here and across the pond at the end of the day will be pretty similar - and please US is a large continent, but how far will you travel in a PA 28 when hour buidling? Or do you want to leave sunny Florida and maybe get grounded for 4 days because of bad weather, and when returned to base your time period has expired and you only managed to fly 30 of those 50 hours you paid for!
Also flying from UK, does not mean you only stay in the UK, the advantage of airplanes is that you can actually fly over that little lake called the english channel to a country called France - from France it is not far to Belgium, Holland or Germany. And if you really have to much money to burn you can go down to Cote D'Azur, Marbella - you are NOT limited to only be flying within the UK airspace. I believe that is more of a challenge experiencing different ATC's in europe then just flying in circles outside the Bermuda triangle!
Does not mean I would not like to go "Over There" and experience a bit myself - but I will rather spend the $1900 flight review money on extra European quality hours - as they probably will be of more use for me at the moment!
Still to all, NAIA went bust, they was very reputable for many years, so I believe many US flight schools are very very afraid now, and good to see so many responses by people with very few posts earlier. Makes me believe more and more that many on these forums have their own protectionist agenda!
Quality - Cheap - Rush - Aviation - are 4 words that does not seem to fith together from what I have read and seen so far.
Schools/instructors want you to gain the greatest possible experience, in the shortest possible time, so they Rush you trough 50 hours in CAVOK + 10km Vis. - within 10 to 14 days, and they believe this will then give you the pilot the greatest benefit and learning experience for your further career with them or as a pilot in general!
If it was dead cheap, maybe you could justify it a little to get some more hours, guess what, it is not low shelf dead cheap - it's just as everywhere else.
Then there are posters on here saying the students are the cheapskates, who just do the easy stuff, why? Maybe because the setup is not designed to provide quality, but rather a greater quanity of students/pilots to complete and spend the most amount of Dollars in the shortest possible time.
And then someone say, oh but the student to save money takes short cuts in their training, vow boomer - that's what it seems to many schools are doing for their own students, I guess they do what they are thought by the school, take short cuts!
First regarding the EFT offer - does not include flight review, and I love this bit "Price Subject to Change without notice"
50 hours completed with 10 days!
Honestly what kind of constructive flying can you complete within 10 days - at average 5 hours a day? Something that would be NOTHING else then burning holes in the sky!
And are these 50 block hours open for everybody? Or just for CPL students with EFT? Not really clear from their site. Still the breakdown of the price makes it around £4000 + travel/flight review!
Back to EAA, is simply asked the opinion of fellow PPRune'rs what their opinion was of $1900 for flight review!
Add this to any hour build packages, and result is there is NO "Savings" going to the USA anymore.
Be honest, you want to go to the US, to get a new experience, but not solely to enhance your flying skills, not because you want to save money to be able to get more hours for the least amount of money.
Is it wrong that pilots want most hours for the least amount of Pounds/Dollars?
The flight schools want most amount of Pounds/Dollars for their operation, so they can be profitable.
I do not have a problem with this, that is not my point!
However let's be honest, so everybody can make their own judgment and opinion, in the current climate going to the USA for flight traing has more negatives then positives, of course plenty of posters are showing they are getting worried that posts here are being read by potential students/hour builders, who they might loose now, as they are presented with the real facts.
The only advantage Florida has is the sun and girls, which itself is not a bad thing - however the example above from EFT, 50 hours within 10 days, you probably won't see much of either.
As somebody else pointed out earlier, what about the quality of hour building? However the schools set out these rules for 3 reasons, they want as much money as possible in the shortest possible time, they do not care if the flying is beneficial for the pilot, and they will get their money regardless if you complete the 50 hours in the period given by them.
However the flight schools should be carefull now, because I hope more and more people will start using their IQ, and not just their wallet. In these economic times people have to be more carefull anyway.
There is NOTHING to save with regards to money to train in the USA for a JAA CPL/IR/ME - I am not going to present the calculations again, already done that in the past. People can work it out themselves.
There is very little if anything to save with hour building 50 to 100 hours, if more maybe a little.
The experience of flying in the USA will not be very beneficial for UK flying, weather, climate different. And that brings us back to the quality of flying - weather conditions in the UK are much more challenging, I have been flying in Scandinavia and UK, very different countries to fly in, bought have thogught me a lot in each their way.
As mentioned in another post, what good is flying 50 hours in CAVOK, ++ Visibily more then 10Km?
Is that going to make you a better pilot? Make you better to understand weather forecasts, etc.
I believe a US PPL (Florida based) would struggle more coming here to the UK to fly, then a JAR PPL (UK) flying in Florida!
If I or anyone else wants to go to hour build in the US, let's get it straight - it is for a new experience, see something new, and be able to make something constructive of the flights, planning and debriefing. However the schools have modelled the hour building like a "red light district concept" - Quickly in, and get out ASP after you have paid them for their 50 hours.
I can get 50 hours in Norway for $7000, with NO TIME PRESSURE, no flight review, and I have friends I can live at for free, and in well maintained clean aircrafts. (PA 28, C-172) and £50 FR - ticket to Oslo. In the UK similar package will cost a bit more - for both these last alternatives I am able to plan it/schedule all myself - and to make the optimal of each flight for my own benefit.
All others seems to be Rush and Go, not even time for Touch and Go!
All in all the prices here and across the pond at the end of the day will be pretty similar - and please US is a large continent, but how far will you travel in a PA 28 when hour buidling? Or do you want to leave sunny Florida and maybe get grounded for 4 days because of bad weather, and when returned to base your time period has expired and you only managed to fly 30 of those 50 hours you paid for!
Also flying from UK, does not mean you only stay in the UK, the advantage of airplanes is that you can actually fly over that little lake called the english channel to a country called France - from France it is not far to Belgium, Holland or Germany. And if you really have to much money to burn you can go down to Cote D'Azur, Marbella - you are NOT limited to only be flying within the UK airspace. I believe that is more of a challenge experiencing different ATC's in europe then just flying in circles outside the Bermuda triangle!
Does not mean I would not like to go "Over There" and experience a bit myself - but I will rather spend the $1900 flight review money on extra European quality hours - as they probably will be of more use for me at the moment!
Still to all, NAIA went bust, they was very reputable for many years, so I believe many US flight schools are very very afraid now, and good to see so many responses by people with very few posts earlier. Makes me believe more and more that many on these forums have their own protectionist agenda!
Quality - Cheap - Rush - Aviation - are 4 words that does not seem to fith together from what I have read and seen so far.
Schools/instructors want you to gain the greatest possible experience, in the shortest possible time, so they Rush you trough 50 hours in CAVOK + 10km Vis. - within 10 to 14 days, and they believe this will then give you the pilot the greatest benefit and learning experience for your further career with them or as a pilot in general!
If it was dead cheap, maybe you could justify it a little to get some more hours, guess what, it is not low shelf dead cheap - it's just as everywhere else.
Then there are posters on here saying the students are the cheapskates, who just do the easy stuff, why? Maybe because the setup is not designed to provide quality, but rather a greater quanity of students/pilots to complete and spend the most amount of Dollars in the shortest possible time.
And then someone say, oh but the student to save money takes short cuts in their training, vow boomer - that's what it seems to many schools are doing for their own students, I guess they do what they are thought by the school, take short cuts!
However the schools set out these rules for 3 reasons, they want as much money as possible in the shortest possible time, they do not care if the flying is beneficial for the pilot, and they will get their money regardless if you complete the 50 hours in the period given by them.
You are absolutely free (within reason) to choose the days/times that you wish to fly. Our only veto would be weather in combination with the destination or if we need an airplane for a check ride.
Just don't book an airplane for the day from 8AM and show up at 11 to fly for 2 hrs. If you want to fly for 2 hrs book the airplane accordingly.
Why do I even mention this?
We have had plenty of hour builders that had the impression they own the aircraft and demand to fly whenever they feel like it regardless of our scheduling needs. We can be very flexible or very strict, it's your attitude that determines which one it will be.
Keep in mind we also have a responsibility to protect somebody from themselves if they are overstepping their boundaries
opinion was of $1900 for flight review
But enough of that already.
There are plenty schools out there that will bend over backwards to help you achieve your goals. Any instructor worth their salt will help you in suggesting routes to fly and destinations. In a sensible way so that you build up your experience by slowly going further and higher in busier airspace.
The building block theory if you will.
We recently had a time builder who (after following our recommendations) at the end of his two week stay had flown three 600+ miles cross countries.
Any of which he could use for his CPL QXC
As far as value of experience is concerned;
The UK half mil chart is a complete nightmare as far as restrictions and airspaces are concerned (yes, I do have a UK chart)
So no discussion that there a differences in flying in the UK or the USA.
First time I saw a US sectional chart I thought it was an IFR chart, so little airspace did it show.
But in the US you can get experiences that you simply can not get in NW Europe as far as large airports, different airspace and general freedom of flight is concerned. You can fly at altitudes at which you can never dream of flying in NW Europe.
Even if it is the same cost it is still different experience which will make you a better pilot if you go about it the right way.
There was a thread on Private Flying a little while ago about taking a PA28 to 12000' or so and the preparations required to do it.
We can do that every day of the week without restrictions.
We have a portable oxygen bottle that you can rent after you have received (once again) instruction on how to use it.
What you can do and how to go about it is just vastly different in the US then Europe.
I can absolutely understand you reservations and you frustrations and a pilot/student/renter, we've all been there at some point.
Just try and not reach the frustration level that you're no longer willing to take advise or recommendations from people who have been there, done that or are still there.
In the end you are the one that needs to decide what's best for you and your career planning. We can't do that for you and we can't read your mind either. Whatever you decide, good luck with it...
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Firstly I was told by other posters regarding the flight review - yes it is a transition course/ still in my personal case I would probably go trough the whole G1000 well in advance with my own tutorials, so knowing the basices.
Yes UK airspace is restricted, but I have also spent much flying in Scandinavia too, and much less restricted airspace and altitude flying. And no grass strips like in the UK!
My original point was/is that the total hour cost, flight review + expenses, all added together for a block of 50 hours - will cost the same in Europe or USA.
I did not initally attack the price of the "flight review", I just added the numbers together - and showed the conclusion of this.
So from this I concluded, if someone wants to go and hour build in the USA, the reason of this is not because it is cheaper/much cheaper, as the price is more or less the same!
Nobody should illude themselves that they are saving a bundle of money on US flying at the moment, which has been the consense from the past!
I am not in a position to comment on schools or centres I have not visited myself, that would be incorrect and unfair. However it is clear - the sole reason for flying in the USA would be to gain a different flight experience, not necessary a cost effective experience.
I am also of the opinion that the cheapest is not always the best - still for some they need to juggle economics to see what they can afford to do.
For me personally it would be something I would consider, however in general for people looking for ways to save some cash - it might cost them a little more then they expect!
People who have trained in the past in the USA, have had great advantages, now things have changed a little - personally I am tempted to come over - depends on what happens as I might have an offer to get 100 - 200 hours free this summer, even if it is in a steam gauge C-172/PA28 - if I get this offer I will have to take it!
Yes UK airspace is restricted, but I have also spent much flying in Scandinavia too, and much less restricted airspace and altitude flying. And no grass strips like in the UK!
My original point was/is that the total hour cost, flight review + expenses, all added together for a block of 50 hours - will cost the same in Europe or USA.
I did not initally attack the price of the "flight review", I just added the numbers together - and showed the conclusion of this.
So from this I concluded, if someone wants to go and hour build in the USA, the reason of this is not because it is cheaper/much cheaper, as the price is more or less the same!
Nobody should illude themselves that they are saving a bundle of money on US flying at the moment, which has been the consense from the past!
I am not in a position to comment on schools or centres I have not visited myself, that would be incorrect and unfair. However it is clear - the sole reason for flying in the USA would be to gain a different flight experience, not necessary a cost effective experience.
I am also of the opinion that the cheapest is not always the best - still for some they need to juggle economics to see what they can afford to do.
For me personally it would be something I would consider, however in general for people looking for ways to save some cash - it might cost them a little more then they expect!
People who have trained in the past in the USA, have had great advantages, now things have changed a little - personally I am tempted to come over - depends on what happens as I might have an offer to get 100 - 200 hours free this summer, even if it is in a steam gauge C-172/PA28 - if I get this offer I will have to take it!
Nobody should illude themselves that they are saving a bundle of money on US flying at the moment, which has been the consense from the past!
Including travel and accommodation, 50 hrs may well be the break even point.
It all depends.
The more hours you fly the more advantageous it becomes since travel cost is fixed.
The big savings are really in a complete course of training; PPL-IR CPL ME.
But I agree, in the good old days (5-7 years ago) the break even point could be as low as 10 hrs.
I did not initally attack the price of the "flight review", I just added the numbers together - and showed the conclusion of this.
But I'm over that now so let's not linger on it.
I might have an offer to get 100 - 200 hours free this summer
and you could still do the US..
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I hope and believe it was not me who said those things, I just raised the question regarding the price I was quoted for the flight review, and I guess there was few who reacted on that.
Because I do believe I said that I had felt you had been honest enough in the information you had given me - so I don't believe I said anything offending like that - altough I raise the question.
Regarding this matter I guess it depends if someone sees the value i diffrent aircraft experience or total amount of hours only.
Personally due to my own circumstances - I am still looking into going over to the US, as I already spent much time there in the past, mostly Miami and Miami Beach.
But when I see some offers of "cheap hours" - and RUSH RUSH - it does not sound right for me!
For me personally I might do it anyway - in the context holiday and doing something usefull. But for some others it about saving money.
Because I do believe I said that I had felt you had been honest enough in the information you had given me - so I don't believe I said anything offending like that - altough I raise the question.
Regarding this matter I guess it depends if someone sees the value i diffrent aircraft experience or total amount of hours only.
Personally due to my own circumstances - I am still looking into going over to the US, as I already spent much time there in the past, mostly Miami and Miami Beach.
But when I see some offers of "cheap hours" - and RUSH RUSH - it does not sound right for me!
For me personally I might do it anyway - in the context holiday and doing something usefull. But for some others it about saving money.
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whatever florida school you choose dont go to OBA
Tatty, tired unsafe aircraft. Poor and RUDE management. Hidden costs that I didn't expect. Disgusting accomidation. Horrible safety record. I do have to say that the instructors there are good spirited blokes but, the all the negatives outweigh that. BY FAR THE WORST CHOICE FOR A CAREER OR CASUAL PILOT WANNABEE!!! DONT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID.
