PIC hours - CPL issue
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Yes.
PIC u/s (in this circumstance) is only used to successful skill tests and should be countersigned by the examiner.
Cheers
Whirls
PIC u/s (in this circumstance) is only used to successful skill tests and should be countersigned by the examiner.
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 423
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From: UK, mainly
I've also got PIC U/S hours from checkrides etc. They've all been signed off.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: EGYD
Does anyone else have very serious concerns over the average CPL applicant given the fact that they can't use regulations/research properly? Or use the PPRuNe search function? 
I get more and more worried every day!
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...nce-issue.html
Appendix B of Section A refers Page 44 to be exact regarding logging of flight time in LASORS - Now go read it!
I get more and more worried every day!
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...nce-issue.html
Appendix B of Section A refers Page 44 to be exact regarding logging of flight time in LASORS - Now go read it!
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,539
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From: self isolating
LASORS is the best friend you will ever have when it comes to aviation regulation questions.
The amount of times I have friends calling me up asking me questions that they could have easily found the answers to in LASORS (and I go find it for them) is insane.
My top tip: If someone asks you a questions go look in LASORS and give them the answer, and tell them you found it in LASORS. They will probably not know what LASORS is and just tell everyone you're a genius so you can enjoy all the glory. That's why we fly isn't it? For the glory?
The amount of times I have friends calling me up asking me questions that they could have easily found the answers to in LASORS (and I go find it for them) is insane.
My top tip: If someone asks you a questions go look in LASORS and give them the answer, and tell them you found it in LASORS. They will probably not know what LASORS is and just tell everyone you're a genius so you can enjoy all the glory. That's why we fly isn't it? For the glory?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: England
BigGrecian
Some big assumptions are being made here.
Just because an answer is on Pprune it is not necessarily correct.
LASORS states at D1.2(D) that 100 hours PIC is required for the modular route.
Now look at Section A Appendix B "Recording of flight time".
Case J states that the designation for a successful test is PIC U/S with time entered in the P1 column. Now PIC U/S is NOT the same as PIC, although both times are entered in the P1 column. Hence my question.
I have now phoned The CAA who tell me that PIC U/S is NOT the same as PIC and does not count as far as the 100 hours is concerned.
Incidentally, the "checkrides" I mentioned were where my landing currency had expired and I flew with an instructor as safety pilot.
Some big assumptions are being made here.
Just because an answer is on Pprune it is not necessarily correct.
LASORS states at D1.2(D) that 100 hours PIC is required for the modular route.
Now look at Section A Appendix B "Recording of flight time".
Case J states that the designation for a successful test is PIC U/S with time entered in the P1 column. Now PIC U/S is NOT the same as PIC, although both times are entered in the P1 column. Hence my question.
I have now phoned The CAA who tell me that PIC U/S is NOT the same as PIC and does not count as far as the 100 hours is concerned.
Incidentally, the "checkrides" I mentioned were where my landing currency had expired and I flew with an instructor as safety pilot.
Joined: May 2001
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Incidentally, the "checkrides" I mentioned were where my landing currency had expired and I flew with an instructor as safety pilot.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: EGYD
Since when did landings for currency count as a check ride?
It most definitely does not!
It's dual for you with an instructor on board in the scenario you describe.
You could have done the landings solo - but you took an instructor and the way you describe falls under instruction - and we DO NOT recognise any kind of safety pilot under JAA regulations.
It most definitely does not!
It's dual for you with an instructor on board in the scenario you describe.
You could have done the landings solo - but you took an instructor and the way you describe falls under instruction - and we DO NOT recognise any kind of safety pilot under JAA regulations.
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: UK
cantw82fly,
To clarify, only successful skills tests may be logged as P1S. Successful skills tests logged as P1S and countersigned by the examiner certainly do count towards the 100hrs required for CPL issue.
It seems that some instructors and flying clubs remain under the totally false impression that a club 'check-out' for the purposes of aircraft rental (or anything similar such as a currency flight) can be logged by the pilot under 'check' as P1S; under this misconception the instructor will log the hours as P1 and tell the other pilot that he is entitled to log them as P1S. This is in fact not permitted. Only one of you can log the P1 hours; if the instructor has logged them as P1, then you must log them as PUT.
If you are a qualified PPL, and the instructor is happy to conduct the club 'check-out' and log nothing at all, then you may log P1 - unsurprisingly many instructors are not happy with this arrangement, but I think it's the only legal way for you to log P1 in this scenario.
If there is any doubt as to who was P1 during the flight, ask yourself who signed the aircraft out, and were you 'sole manipulator of the controls'? Make sure there's no doubt as to who is in command.
I understand those who get frustrated with people who seemingly don't read LASORS but I have some sympathy in this case; I don't think the rule is properly understood by some flying clubs and schools; I have had the above fallacy presented to me as fact by at least two flight training establishments indicating misunderstanding of what is allowed and what isn't. LASORS could be clearer as well.
To clarify, only successful skills tests may be logged as P1S. Successful skills tests logged as P1S and countersigned by the examiner certainly do count towards the 100hrs required for CPL issue.
It seems that some instructors and flying clubs remain under the totally false impression that a club 'check-out' for the purposes of aircraft rental (or anything similar such as a currency flight) can be logged by the pilot under 'check' as P1S; under this misconception the instructor will log the hours as P1 and tell the other pilot that he is entitled to log them as P1S. This is in fact not permitted. Only one of you can log the P1 hours; if the instructor has logged them as P1, then you must log them as PUT.
If you are a qualified PPL, and the instructor is happy to conduct the club 'check-out' and log nothing at all, then you may log P1 - unsurprisingly many instructors are not happy with this arrangement, but I think it's the only legal way for you to log P1 in this scenario.
If there is any doubt as to who was P1 during the flight, ask yourself who signed the aircraft out, and were you 'sole manipulator of the controls'? Make sure there's no doubt as to who is in command.
I understand those who get frustrated with people who seemingly don't read LASORS but I have some sympathy in this case; I don't think the rule is properly understood by some flying clubs and schools; I have had the above fallacy presented to me as fact by at least two flight training establishments indicating misunderstanding of what is allowed and what isn't. LASORS could be clearer as well.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: EGYD
Your right, I should mention that we would call safety pilot, supernumerary - which is as good as useless to you in terms of PIC, dual, totals etc.
Case M basically describes you taking a passenger on your existing licence (i.e exactly the same as case A)which of course you log as PIC, but the 'passenger' would have to log it as supernumerary which again is practically useless.
Also I've never ever met anyone who actually logged the supernumerary.
Case M basically describes you taking a passenger on your existing licence (i.e exactly the same as case A)which of course you log as PIC, but the 'passenger' would have to log it as supernumerary which again is practically useless.
Also I've never ever met anyone who actually logged the supernumerary.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 22
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From: England
Thanks Eurotraveller and BigGrecian
The only thing that still worries me is this PIC (U/S) for successful skills tests.
The CAA yesterday told me (twice!) that these hours cannot be counted towards the 100 hours PIC because LASORS says 100 hrs PIC and not 100 hrs PIC or PIC (U/S) (their words).
Either the guy I spoke to (who was in the licence issuing department) was wrong, or they rarely check logbooks thoroughly.
Who knows?
The only thing that still worries me is this PIC (U/S) for successful skills tests.
The CAA yesterday told me (twice!) that these hours cannot be counted towards the 100 hours PIC because LASORS says 100 hrs PIC and not 100 hrs PIC or PIC (U/S) (their words).
Either the guy I spoke to (who was in the licence issuing department) was wrong, or they rarely check logbooks thoroughly.
Who knows?
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 85
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From: UK
cantw82fly,
Taken straight from LASORS 2008, Section A, Appendix B p45:
Case J
Pilot undergoing any form
of flight test with a JAA or
CAA Authorised Examiner
(other than case K).
PIC U/S for successful test;
Enter time in ‘P1’ column
and have it certified by
aircraft commander.
P/UT for unsuccessful test
Enter time in ‘Dual’ column.
So the time will be in the P1 column and counts towards the 100hrs P1 required even though it is logged as PIC U/S. I know of several people whose 100hrs for CPL issue included time logged as above and all were processed without problems.
Taken straight from LASORS 2008, Section A, Appendix B p45:
Case J
Pilot undergoing any form
of flight test with a JAA or
CAA Authorised Examiner
(other than case K).
PIC U/S for successful test;
Enter time in ‘P1’ column
and have it certified by
aircraft commander.
P/UT for unsuccessful test
Enter time in ‘Dual’ column.
So the time will be in the P1 column and counts towards the 100hrs P1 required even though it is logged as PIC U/S. I know of several people whose 100hrs for CPL issue included time logged as above and all were processed without problems.
