Degree.

[Keith.Williams.]

I heard from one person that year one was a few videos and a maths and science lesson (+ppl), year two was atpl ground school and then there was the optional third year of actual degree work for the top up bit (when you did the cpl+ir etc in your own time).

As with many such comments it is not actually true.

The first semester of the Kingston/Cabair FD includes three modules. The first two of these are Mathematics and Engineering Science. Both of these are drawn directly from other Kingston BSc courses.

The third module is entitled PPL Ground Training, but it is not simply a matter of studying the PPL Confuser and ticking the right boxes in the CAA multi-choice exams. It requires the students to develop a much greater knowledge and understanding of the theories involved. To demonstarte this knowledge they are required to do coursework in the form of a stand-up presentation on one aspect of the syllabus, supported by a written report. In addition to this they must pass a 2 hour written exam in which they must give detailed explanations.

It is true that semesters 2 3, and 4 cover the ATPL syllabus and lead to students taking the JAR exams. But they do much more than this. They do coursework in the form of research/essay writing tasks, individual research/presentaion tasks and group research/presentation tasks. They must then pass a two hour multi-chice exam (not using standrad JAR questions) and a 2 hour written exam in each subject. All of this is designed to take the students way beyond the simple task of passing the JAR exams.

For students who go on to the third year, the BSc top-up is a standard KINGSTON BSC third year. It can be done in one year of full time study or over two years part time study.

None of the flying training counts as any part of the degree.

I am amazed at some of these universities which include PPL groundschool as part of the syllabus. To even consider PPL groundschool as being any part of a university level education!!!

If it were simply a matter of doing the type of PPL training that most students do then I would agree. But as I have explained above, this course requires the students to do far more than any ordinary PPL student. And the entire PPL training Module is 1 of 14 modules. It accounts for only 30 CATS points out of a total of 270 and plays no part in deciding the final grade.

No less than 6 months ago, I was looking at doing one of these degrees myself. Okay, I lied, I was looking at doing an fATPL and getting a degree for it

In many cases this is the real problem. People feel that they should get a degree simply for doing the standard ATPL. When they find that they cannot do so, they then revert to arguing that the degree (that they failed to get) had no value.

[PilotPieces]

Thank you Keith for the otherside of the story. The comments that I posted were the exact words from what I was told by current students on one of these courses. Like I said I was interested in doing one of these courses as I felt that the learning would be of suitable interest to myself as opposed to doing a vetinary degree or something to support my 'backup career' as it were.

Maybe I and others have the wrong impression of the course. Perhaps this is because the presentation I went to about the course was just cabair dribbling on and on about how BA have a 777 RHS with my name on it.

Like I said, havent completly written off one of these courses yet. How would coming into one with a ppl effect me? (I assume you are a lecturer or ex student hence why I am asking)

[preduk]

As for the comments about course content, year one in any degree is easy, its designed to be so to allow you to develop the skills you need in the following years and not to bombard you with information at an early stage. Think of it this way, if you were on your first ever PPL flight and your instuctor was to breif you on take off, stalling, emergencies, radio, the curcuit, climbing & decending...... (the list goes on) how much do you really think you would retain while you were in the air on later flights?

Not in my course, our highest drop out rate was straight after first year because people couldn't hack the course. The basics I was taught in first year I still use today.

Before you all criticise this type of course I suggest you look into them in some depth. While those of you that had degree's in other subjects spent your summers relaxing or on holidays we were working our asses off doing PPL, Hours Building, CPL and IR's.

What rubbish. I had two jobs, was studying for a full time while doing my PPL while at University. During the summer I was off on study in a foriegn country then working full time for two months to get extra money for University starting back so don't sit and assume we did nothing.


These airline degrees may help you when getting a pilot job, I'm not debating that however as a backup they are awful. Why you would want to tie yourself to an industry which has been known for many years to suffer from boom and bust? Do you think potential employers outside of aviation understands or cares to even look into what your course means when he has a list of other candidates with proper management degrees? If they do look into it, how serious do you think an employer would be when he sees in your management course that you have been studying PPL, ATPL and Ground Handeling systems, what does that have to do with management?

[Keith.Williams.]

How would coming into one with a ppl effect me? (I assume you are a lecturer or ex student hence why I am asking)

PILOTPIECES

I run the course at EPTA.

Students who already have a PPL can join the course. But they must still do all of the PPL ground training, including the research/presentation tasks and the written exams.

For pilots who have already completed their ATPLs we are looking at a distance learning option which will give them some credit for their existing qualifications. But this credit is unlikely to account for more than a small part of the overall points allocation. This is because the whole point of doing a degree is to develop key skills. Awarding a degree largely or entirely on the basis of previous non-degree study would probably be very popular, but it would achieve nothing in terms of enhancing the ability of the student.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Where the RAeS has accredited AeroEng courses which incorporate a PPL (in practice, usually an NPPL with JAR exam passes), the norm has been for the NPPL to comprise one module - that is 1/6th of the first year, although also the normal has been to add in some addition - usually essay based - work within that module.

(I wrote the syllabus of one of these degrees, and had all of the fun of getting it through the RAeS accreditation process).

That said, whilst the PPL, CPL and ATPL are academically much easier than any degree level work, they are also very "content heavy" and this does cause problems in balancing the overall workload - as well as creating the illusion in some places that an ATPL has some equivalence to a degree.

G

[charliegolf]

Genghis said:

I have some reservations about the genuine educational value of Foundation Degrees. There is a subtle distinction between education and training and I think that they are closer to the latter.

I see where you're coming from, but having seen the essay workload of one of my teaching assistants who's nearly there, makes me disagree with your 'training' criticism. She will have done a significant number of 3000 worders on pedagogy and practice in the school setting. She did an interesting research piece on comparative standards in Faith and secular schools which any undergrad would be pleased (and would pass) with.

Jamie

P.S. dont even start talking to me about Foundation Degree's, until someone shows me an employer that actually recognises them I dont think they are worth the paper they are printed on.

They are recognised in education, not least because we're no longer interested in taking graduates who have absolutely no idea about what schools do. FD 'grads', who finish off their degrees make excellent PGCE candidates, and usually fine teachers.

CG

Who would not mount the same defence for Hairdressing FDs, which will fit Genghis' premise to a t, I suspect.

[Genghis the Engineer]

She will have done a significant number of 3000 worders on pedagogy and practice in the school setting.

Aaarghhh, you are giving me nightmares remembering my Higher Education PGCE. You WILL learn to use the word pedagogic and mean it!

G

[charliegolf]

Ah but Genghis, in the rarified atmosphere of HE (where I believe you get your crusts from these days?) they actually believe practitioners use that mumbo jumbo!

[Scott Duch]

I'm in my last year of high school and i've applied for university. My first choice is Aeronautical Engineering (like my maths and physics ) and i've received an offer from the university (Glasgow) and will hopefully be heading off there to do the BEng or the MEng......not sure yet.

[preduk]

Scott,

Just to give you heads up, my best mate is currently 4th year Aeronautical at Glasgow and hates the course with a passion. He say he feels as if he barely knows anything about aircraft design and believes he was told a complete lie about what the course is like!

I would ask some current students if I were you what they think of it. I know 4 people who done it, one person left in first year because they never liked it, one person is in 4th year another left after 3rd year to become a teacher and one left after 2nd year and got a job with Ryanair engineering (nothing to do with the degree).

Edit: I know another person lol finished the course and got a job with Virgin (and loves it).

[Scott Duch]

preduk, that's for that. I was looking on the UCAS website at the time of applying and only 67% of people rated to course to be good or excellent. However, I've spoken to a guy on msn who is in 1st of the course and loves it very much and 2 people from my school are also in their first years of the course and are enjoying it but I have heard conflicting views, and yours is one of them.

I haven't accepted to offer yet. I got an offer from Glasgow for Aerospace Systems, formally known as Avionics. Thats another choice i'm thinking about (my back-up) but Aerospace Systems is up against another course I'm really interested in, Automotive Engineering however i have haven't go an offer from Heriot Watt yet as i have an interview on the 5th of March so it still gives me alot of time to think it through.

Thanks for sharing though!

[preduk]

No problem, if you want to speak to any students on the course give me a buzz and I'll get them to speak to you.

[About_A_Mile_Away]

These degree threads sure are very interesting, but it's given me a bit of a problem.

I thought I'd found myself a well established course - Aeronautical Technology at Staffordshire. From what I could understand the course content was all good and I was very impressed with the applicants open day. The course is shown on the website here.

And, if it matters, it has the same course code as these courses.

Reading this, and other threads, has made me very sceptical (or does PPRuNe just have that effect anyway?) It feels a bit selfish asking for 'personalised advice' on such a big forum, but is this a classic case of a 'mickey-mouse' degree?

And is there a pruner who has been on this course? Would be great to get your opinion.

Thanks,
Matt

[Reluctant737]

Personally, and this is coming from somebody in the RHS on a lovely new 737NG, I wouldn't reccommend anybody who wants to be a 'career airline pilot' goes and does a degree.

Seriously, this job may seem fantastic when you're a passenger sat behind the wing skimming at 300 knots over the stratus bathed in the gorgeous golden light from the setting sun, and you may think 'bloody hell, I'm gonna have to be a Physicist to achieve this'!

Trust me, when you're in the job, you realise that it really is hyped up a LOT. It's very nice, there's no doubt about that, but that's all it is, another job. My mates aren't doctors, or lawyers, or MPs etc. They work in warehouses, they're retail managers, they're HGV drivers, one's a P.E. teacher. Do I have a better job? Not really - when you've done your 100th landing in the 737 and taxiied up to the stand having a chat with the skipper, you realise that it IS only a job.

It's CERTAINLY not worthy spending four years at university specifically for it, as it will not help you in this job that is no longer so unusual. Do you need a degree to fly a PA28 or a 172? No. Do you need a degree to fly a 737? No. In fact, do you need a degree to fly aeroplanes full stop? Go figure.

It's a fabulous career for me, I thoroughly enjoy it, but I wouldn't have learnt 4 years worth of unrelated material for it... Those who really DO have the motivation to fly for a career, will do so with relatively few gaps in employment. Go drive a truck for a few months. If you love flying, you must accept there probably will be a few times in your life when you're not flying. What does it matter whether you then fall back onto a job in a warehouse or as a lawyer?

Why study all that time at uni for a job/area you'll probably only be in for a few months in your life? Hey, if you've got two brain cells to rub together you will put enough savings away each month to keep your going in times like these when the pickings are thin.

I don't tend to enjoy myself as much these days for exactly that reason. I spend NOTHING that I don't need to right now, because I am always anticipating I may need the money in the future, and in ten months of flying I've put away enough to keep me going for about the same time frame in my current conditions.

Just my two Euros

[preduk]

Reluctant737,

From a man that has done two University degree courses I 100% agree with you. I'm on possibly my final year of studying at the moment and have hated it since I started. I'm know leaving trying to think of a job that I can get that will help me fund the rest of my flight training and have decided the police, a job which requires no qualifications...

If only I had joined the police when I was 18, perhaps I would be going for my airline job sooner

[preduk]

In Scotland we do 3 years for the normal degree and a further year for hons. So it would take a student 4 years to get a BA(hons) for example and a further year to do it at masters level.

[Reluctant737]

Hi,

I must add, so nobody misunderstands me - I have no qualifications past GCSEs, I left and worked within a friend's business for a few years, so I am unqualified to speak of the university experience. But what I should say is that going by some friends of mine who have done degrees or are in the process of gaining such, I think it is a very valuable asset in turning you into a more confident person, more ready to take on the world ahead of you. I also have a very high level of respect for people who have what it takes to stick out ANY degree for the duration.

I can only speak for myself, and I am VERY easily distracted from things I am not interested in, which is why A levels and/or a degree would not have suited me.

I should also say, my opinion, regardless of what I put above, is that a degree will only help you in this industry if you have one. I was referring specifically to people who are still in the process of making that decision, and again, that's just my opinion.

Sam, you may be thinking of foundation degrees. I am referring to what I liked to call 'proper' degrees whicn incidentally, tend to be 3-4 years.

Cheers, Ad

[Genghis the Engineer]

I also have a couple of degrees, and have taught on several others at a couple of well regarded universities. And I fly. I'd hate to give up my aeronautical engineering, my management work, or my flying. Okay, maybe I'd be prepared to give up being a manager.


Anyhow...

If you have no desire to be anything but an airline pilot - don't waste your time with a degree, get on with your ATPLs.

If you want a "safety net" in case you can't fly, and you have no desire to do anything in the aviation engineer except fly. Then do something vocational, not a degree, which is only ever a building block towards other things.

If you have a life-plan which includes flying, but may also include other roles - airline management, aviation journalism, accident investigation, test flying... Then, and only then, would I strongly recommend taking a degree course before your ATPLs. But, pick a degree relevant to your life plans, whether that's aerospace engineering, business management, or somewhere in between. If that has a "with pilot studies" element, then great.

Or, if you have a real passion for a subject, and want to study it for a few years before switching to your other passion of flying - why not do a degree in that subject. It's your life, and if you are sure you can afford it, why the hell not.

But don't do a degree because it seems a good idea. It isn't a good idea unless you've got good reasons to do it.


Incidentally, About_A_Mile_Away] my opinion is that the Staffordshire course probably is a Mickey Mouse course, as IMHO is the similar course at Leeds. I don't disparage all "with pilot studies" courses, but have strong reservations about these whose academic content seems to me to be pretty weak. The courses at Salford, Brunel, Sheffield, Liverpool - those I think hold rather more water academically, as well as still offering some significant flying content.

G

[UniFlyBoy]

One of the best aviation degrees (at least it was when I was there) and I think the first in the country, was that run by Leeds University, originally in conjunction with Leeds Flying School (sadly no more). Many of the early graduates were highly sought after and are are now doing very well indeed. Many will also claim that this particular degree was a positive advantage when it came to recruitment, and not just for pilot wanabees. Salford etc were just copies of the Leeds degree and given the number of other similar courses that have sprouted, the lack of exclusivity will work in no ones favour now. Also it is clear that the Leeds course has changed for the worst, with less emphasis on aviation and a clear failure to recruit/retain staff with relevent academic knowledge and practical experience that a degree of this type requires. Looking at the Uni web site, the number of directly related aviation modules with relevent academic content and depth, which I studied, have reduced in the last year in favour of more general engineering topics such as "Health and Safety!". It seems that they have got their priorities all wrong, or someone has been shopping at the pick 'n mix degree courses counter.

[eliasg17]

If you have no desire to be anything but an airline pilot

This is true.I only have the desire of being an airline pilot someday.

But don't do a degree because it seems a good idea

This is why i thought of doing a degree.But if i lose my medical someday,i will try something vocational as you said,or if i am young,then go to uni.