Jet Orientation Course
Thread Starter
Jet Orientation Course
Given that jobs are hardly dropping off trees at the moment and there is a huge over-supply of similarly (un)qualified wannabe commercial pilots out there, all of whom possess a shiny new CPL and have completed an MCC of some description, is there any value in paying a few more thousand of Mr Visa's pounds for a JOC?
I'm keeping an open mind. What do the rest of you think?
I'm keeping an open mind. What do the rest of you think?
Most Jet Orientation Courses will be some 20 hours in a full motion Jet simulator.
As most MCCs are similarly 20 hours in a simulator, by doing your MCC on a full motion Jet type effectively covers both courses for the price of one.
If however you do a cheaper MCC on a non-jet sim, then there would most certainly be a benefit to doing a JOC in addition before going for any interview which involves a sim check on a jet sim.
As most MCCs are similarly 20 hours in a simulator, by doing your MCC on a full motion Jet type effectively covers both courses for the price of one.
If however you do a cheaper MCC on a non-jet sim, then there would most certainly be a benefit to doing a JOC in addition before going for any interview which involves a sim check on a jet sim.
Thread Starter
Fair point pilotmike.
But looking at the figures, an MCC on a full-motion jet sim is going to have set you back about £4000 whereas a non-jet MCC is £2500 and a JOC is about £2500. The overall costs are actually pretty similar but you get more hours by doing the two courses, and what effect does this have on job prospects?
But looking at the figures, an MCC on a full-motion jet sim is going to have set you back about £4000 whereas a non-jet MCC is £2500 and a JOC is about £2500. The overall costs are actually pretty similar but you get more hours by doing the two courses, and what effect does this have on job prospects?
Last edited by Mikehotel152; 9th Jan 2009 at 21:50. Reason: To clarify a few things!
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i did my MCC at oxford for 3000. it was a bit more than stapleford but i chose it as it had a full motion and was a 737-400. stapleford also have a jet one but it does not move.
another friend did hers somewhere down south for the same price and in a 737 full motion as well.
another friend did hers somewhere down south for the same price and in a 737 full motion as well.
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The MCC is a different course than a JOC. I did both, the MCC at JetLinx in a full motion 757 sim , and the JOC at CTC (which my airline sent me to) on a fixed based 737 sim. JOC was all manual IR flying, while the MCC was mostly using the automatics.
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What is the purpose of a Jet Orientation Course? It is to give you an a heads up on one engine inoperative handling and energy management. Other than that something like a 737 is more or less an overgrown Seneca.
In my experience, nobody was the least bit interested in how many sim hours I had but there was a modicum of interest in my MCC being in a 737 full motion sim (Parc aviation in my case too).
Do the MCC in a jet sim on a course that offers a decent amount of OEI handling and hand flying and you're as up to speed as you can be without doing the TR.
In my experience, nobody was the least bit interested in how many sim hours I had but there was a modicum of interest in my MCC being in a 737 full motion sim (Parc aviation in my case too).
Do the MCC in a jet sim on a course that offers a decent amount of OEI handling and hand flying and you're as up to speed as you can be without doing the TR.
JOCs also available at Virtual Flight Centre for those on a budget.
20 hours Sim time included for less than £2k
20 hours Sim time included for less than £2k
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The JOC is designed to help you make the transition from piston to jet. You learn to control speed with the throttle, and glideslope with pitch -i.e. the opposite to how you fly a piston. Also the pitch/power couple is something which needs some getting used to, as is getting used to speed control in general. It is very beneficial if you are about to go into a TR. However, the longer between that and the TR reduces its usefulness, as your skills quickly degrade.
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The MCC course that Parc used to run is now being run by Simtech.Its the same course just run by a different company and I believe the cost has increased to €5250. For that you get 28 hours in the sim.
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The JOC is designed to help you make the transition from piston to jet.
You learn to control speed with the throttle, and glideslope with pitch -i.e. the opposite to how you fly a piston.
Also the pitch/power couple is something which needs some getting used to
as is getting used to speed control in general.
Personally I think the crucial differences between something like a 737 and Seneca is handling engine failures, descent planning (energy management) and two crew. In comparison to a well thought out jet based MCC course, a JOC is just waste of good money.
Last edited by Sciolistes; 12th Jan 2009 at 11:25.
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My tuppence, for what little it's worth.
I did both, JOC immediately after the MCC. What I found is that the transition from piston to Jet proved very hard work for the first couple of MCC sessions, such that both me and my partner felt we got relatively little out of it. The remaining sessions were markedly improved and very enjoyable. However, the JOC was better still due to better experience in the sim and understanding of the response of the [aircraft]. We felt the JOC gave a good view of what we could expect in a "typical" day on the line but more importantly gave some vital extra experience in handling the a/c.
Thus, I would say it's validity depends on your wallet, as with all things training. If you can afford it, I think it's very useful, in the same way that if you could afford to do an extra 10 hours before your IR most would think that worthwhile. If you can't afford it I don't think you're at a huge disadvantage, but if you can, it's worthwhile.
I did both, JOC immediately after the MCC. What I found is that the transition from piston to Jet proved very hard work for the first couple of MCC sessions, such that both me and my partner felt we got relatively little out of it. The remaining sessions were markedly improved and very enjoyable. However, the JOC was better still due to better experience in the sim and understanding of the response of the [aircraft]. We felt the JOC gave a good view of what we could expect in a "typical" day on the line but more importantly gave some vital extra experience in handling the a/c.
Thus, I would say it's validity depends on your wallet, as with all things training. If you can afford it, I think it's very useful, in the same way that if you could afford to do an extra 10 hours before your IR most would think that worthwhile. If you can't afford it I don't think you're at a huge disadvantage, but if you can, it's worthwhile.
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A) Will a JOC improve your CV / job prospects?
Difficult to see how, especially in the present climate. Sim hours don't mean a lot in the great scheme of things - one low hours CV is very much like another. Even with a JOC, your CV will still go on the pile marked 'nil commercial experience'.
B) Could a JOC improve your performance at a sim assessment?
Probably, but only if you'd recently done the course. I suspect a recent MCC course could be just as useful. My airline wants all low-houred recruits (when we're recruiting that is) to complete a JOC course before starting the type rating, as they feel it gives people a head start going into the sim. They clearly feel there is a benefit, and are prepared to pay for it. That said, the JOC is very much tailored to our operation, with company specific calls and SOPs. Note that not having a JOC didn't preclude people from applying, it was simply added to the training programme (and bond) if required.
Difficult to see how, especially in the present climate. Sim hours don't mean a lot in the great scheme of things - one low hours CV is very much like another. Even with a JOC, your CV will still go on the pile marked 'nil commercial experience'.
B) Could a JOC improve your performance at a sim assessment?
Probably, but only if you'd recently done the course. I suspect a recent MCC course could be just as useful. My airline wants all low-houred recruits (when we're recruiting that is) to complete a JOC course before starting the type rating, as they feel it gives people a head start going into the sim. They clearly feel there is a benefit, and are prepared to pay for it. That said, the JOC is very much tailored to our operation, with company specific calls and SOPs. Note that not having a JOC didn't preclude people from applying, it was simply added to the training programme (and bond) if required.
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It's worth taking a moment to really understand what the MCC course is and why the CAA have made it a compulsory requirement for multi crew or airline operations.
The MCC course is designed to be a transition course between flying an unsophisticated light aircraft in single pilot operations (and practically speaking within a purely training environment for most pilots as they complete their CPL) to being a useful and functioning member of a crew in an airliner on revenue flights.
To this end what you should be learning, practicing and demonstrating on an MCC course is an ability to not simply to fly AN aircraft. We know you can do that - that's what your licence tells us. An airline wants to see that you have understood that at the heart of flying an aircraft as a member of a crew is your ability to manage the work load, maintain situational awareness and practice making decisions. All this with in the context of a light deck crew.
To be able to do this you, the MCC course should give you an appreciation of, and facility to practice working as a team, being able to communicate effectively, and to be able to make sure that all members of the crew know what is going on now or in the future by being able to give an effective briefing.
Finally the MCC course looks at ways of developing your professional style, and practicing and demonstrating this while flying at speeds of 250kts or more. Being able to apply all this knowledge by using standard operating procedure and policies, check lists, as well as enhancing and developing your technical and operational knowlege is what the MCC course is all about.
Please don't confuse it with a JOC course as they are very different. An MCC course is a mandatory requirement (and with good reason) a JOC is a more in depth look at how a jet aircraft flies. There are many MCC providers to choose from and some are better than others.
Don't be "swayed" by doing your MCC course in a fancy aircraft. Don't worry, you'll get onto what ever aircraft floats your boat eventually! Go to the MCC provider that has a good reputation for providing you with the knowedge and ability to work as a competent and effective crew member as described above. And as you can see, the type of aircraft you completed it on matters little to an airline! It's what you learn on the MCC course that will set you apart form the rest at your interview.
Best of luck!
The MCC course is designed to be a transition course between flying an unsophisticated light aircraft in single pilot operations (and practically speaking within a purely training environment for most pilots as they complete their CPL) to being a useful and functioning member of a crew in an airliner on revenue flights.
To this end what you should be learning, practicing and demonstrating on an MCC course is an ability to not simply to fly AN aircraft. We know you can do that - that's what your licence tells us. An airline wants to see that you have understood that at the heart of flying an aircraft as a member of a crew is your ability to manage the work load, maintain situational awareness and practice making decisions. All this with in the context of a light deck crew.
To be able to do this you, the MCC course should give you an appreciation of, and facility to practice working as a team, being able to communicate effectively, and to be able to make sure that all members of the crew know what is going on now or in the future by being able to give an effective briefing.
Finally the MCC course looks at ways of developing your professional style, and practicing and demonstrating this while flying at speeds of 250kts or more. Being able to apply all this knowledge by using standard operating procedure and policies, check lists, as well as enhancing and developing your technical and operational knowlege is what the MCC course is all about.
Please don't confuse it with a JOC course as they are very different. An MCC course is a mandatory requirement (and with good reason) a JOC is a more in depth look at how a jet aircraft flies. There are many MCC providers to choose from and some are better than others.
Don't be "swayed" by doing your MCC course in a fancy aircraft. Don't worry, you'll get onto what ever aircraft floats your boat eventually! Go to the MCC provider that has a good reputation for providing you with the knowedge and ability to work as a competent and effective crew member as described above. And as you can see, the type of aircraft you completed it on matters little to an airline! It's what you learn on the MCC course that will set you apart form the rest at your interview.
Best of luck!
