Do you tell them that they're wasting their time?!
Thread Starter
Do you tell them that they're wasting their time?!
Just wondering... have u ever known someone who is trying to learn to fly... who ultimately wants to be a commercial pilot. Someone who you know that you would never trust your life in an aircraft they're flying...however they just keep on trying... They can't seem to even get their private license, and let alone a commercial one... and they think the flight instructors are just trying to "earn more cash" but doing more lessons...?!? Do you tell them that they're just wasting their time...and ultimately, probably making the skies safer!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Age: 40
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They should tell them!
I know a guy who has 80h of flight. He is still not PPL and failed 3 times the PPL written exam. He also changed school twice and still thinks the instructors are bad with him. I don't trust him in everyday's life and would never trust him in a plane
I know a guy who has 80h of flight. He is still not PPL and failed 3 times the PPL written exam. He also changed school twice and still thinks the instructors are bad with him. I don't trust him in everyday's life and would never trust him in a plane
They should tell them but usually don't. FI's have to eat.
In my time I've told one or two quietly to knock it on the head. I've begged one on an Integrated course to quit wasting his parents mortgage. But mostly I kept quiet and sold the product and paid my bills.
WWW
In my time I've told one or two quietly to knock it on the head. I've begged one on an Integrated course to quit wasting his parents mortgage. But mostly I kept quiet and sold the product and paid my bills.
WWW
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You do tell them but it never seems to make much difference.
Some may remember a ginger haired fellow doing ground school in cov in 2002.
We tried and tried to save his money and to go and do something more suited to his talents.
Didn't make one bit of difference. He spent more than I did getting to FI and his sum total was a PPL and the comms papers pass.
Some may remember a ginger haired fellow doing ground school in cov in 2002.
We tried and tried to save his money and to go and do something more suited to his talents.
Didn't make one bit of difference. He spent more than I did getting to FI and his sum total was a PPL and the comms papers pass.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Surrey UK/Quebec CA
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I knew someone who was flying at my local school doing his ppl at the same time as I was. His parents were fairly rich and he didnt pay a penny towards it.
I was solo after 10 hours and last time I heard he still hasnt gone solo and had 40+ hours.
But what do I care...funding my industry
I was solo after 10 hours and last time I heard he still hasnt gone solo and had 40+ hours.
But what do I care...funding my industry
Supercharged PPRuNer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
Posts: 1,183
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From experience, the ones who are obviously struggling tend to blame the instructor / school / examiner / aircraft, etc etc. I guess that's easier than admitting to yourself that maybe you're not cut out for your dream job. With people like that, even the frankest of debriefs won't make much difference. Most of them run out of money in the end, but I did meet one chap who finally got his CPL with a fifth series pass - that would take some explaining at an airline interview . . .
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK.
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember when I just started flying I got stuck with this instructor who looked as if he had been sleeping in a bin all night. It was a Katana that I started flying so you can imagine the smell sitting so close to him...
We were doing some checks on the aircraft and as he was getting his seatbelt sorted he farted 4 times and then closed the hatch down... I was fumming mad by this time as my previous instructor was an FO for a big airline.
We got off the ground, I was only 16 at the time so was a bit nervous. We were doing climbing and descending when, after my first shot at it, he turned to me and said "That was ****, lets try that again".. I was devastated, imagine being told you were **** that early on...
I ended up leaving the school that day at went to a much better flying school where I got a lot of good feedback from experienced instructors.
We were doing some checks on the aircraft and as he was getting his seatbelt sorted he farted 4 times and then closed the hatch down... I was fumming mad by this time as my previous instructor was an FO for a big airline.
We got off the ground, I was only 16 at the time so was a bit nervous. We were doing climbing and descending when, after my first shot at it, he turned to me and said "That was ****, lets try that again".. I was devastated, imagine being told you were **** that early on...
I ended up leaving the school that day at went to a much better flying school where I got a lot of good feedback from experienced instructors.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: London, Berlin, Bucharest
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when i was doing my ppl there was a guy who was going to sit his ppl flight test after 70 hours instruction.
when i was doing my CPL/MR/IR a guy did his CPL flight test after 80ish hours of flight training. he did pass first time and was very proud of it, but haveing done so spending the same as the aircraft would have cost to buy.
from what i heard, the school had told both of them during training that they would not make it in the airlines but both carried on their training. not sure what happend to the guy doing his ppl but the guy who managed to pass his CPL is broke now and has had to stop flying untill he can pay of his debts.
when i was doing my CPL/MR/IR a guy did his CPL flight test after 80ish hours of flight training. he did pass first time and was very proud of it, but haveing done so spending the same as the aircraft would have cost to buy.
from what i heard, the school had told both of them during training that they would not make it in the airlines but both carried on their training. not sure what happend to the guy doing his ppl but the guy who managed to pass his CPL is broke now and has had to stop flying untill he can pay of his debts.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Proberly the same cock who used to advise people to go-around due to the fact that that he had decided that you didn't have enough room to get in behined him. He then taxi at such speed he was nearly at a stand still just to make sure a perfectly safe situation turned into a bum clincher. The trick was he was in a Katana and couldn't see high out the back so if you made a call going around he couldn't see you and would promptly scuttled off the runway. Which you would then just land .
He was an aggresive git as well had to be told to
off and file a couple of times before he sussed out we really didn't care what his opinion was.
Looked like he had sever probs with his prostate his mouth looked like a cats arse with a pool ball trying to get out.
He was an aggresive git as well had to be told to
off and file a couple of times before he sussed out we really didn't care what his opinion was.Looked like he had sever probs with his prostate his mouth looked like a cats arse with a pool ball trying to get out.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never personally met anyone who needed more than the average time to train for their licenses but what I have seen and it almost happened to me are flight school staff who find a weakness of yours and unintentionally make your problem worse by perhaps not using the right method of teaching/coaching.
I've had issues with motion sickness in the past. Instead of getting me to overcome my problem through exposure, I was essentially sidelined for weeks until I cured myself (which was never going to happen). It wasn't until I approached the school and requested to carry on that I actually overcome my problem. My instructor afterwards remarked that he had learned some big lessons from me. It wasn't really his fault, just the situation that had been created as a result of everyone not thinking properly.
I'm sure this sort of thing happens everyday. I.e. Flight schools make some people's problems worse.
I've had issues with motion sickness in the past. Instead of getting me to overcome my problem through exposure, I was essentially sidelined for weeks until I cured myself (which was never going to happen). It wasn't until I approached the school and requested to carry on that I actually overcome my problem. My instructor afterwards remarked that he had learned some big lessons from me. It wasn't really his fault, just the situation that had been created as a result of everyone not thinking properly.
I'm sure this sort of thing happens everyday. I.e. Flight schools make some people's problems worse.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the seventh house with Mars
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A teaching point here, somewhere
See what happens to the student's flying when the instructor farts in the cockpit! Wilky, I'm so glad you got a better deal, and positive feedback on your flying, elsewhere.
I love this comment: "Looked like he has severe probs with his prostrate his mouth looked like a cats arse with a pool ball trying to get out". I can just imagine those words rolling off the tongue in a Scottish accent. Poetic.
I love this comment: "Looked like he has severe probs with his prostrate his mouth looked like a cats arse with a pool ball trying to get out". I can just imagine those words rolling off the tongue in a Scottish accent. Poetic.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK.
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeh he was from Cumbernauld, I didn't like the flight school anyway but that just pushed me over the edge.
When I went to the "better" flight school they basically started from the beginning as a lot of the things I had been taught wasn't the best way to do it...
When I went to the "better" flight school they basically started from the beginning as a lot of the things I had been taught wasn't the best way to do it...
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: North America
Age: 64
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The military does not hesitate.
Many who struggle just need help getting over some particular task. There are a few who should be told under no uncertain terms they are not suited to fly.
I remember a senior instructor fuming about a certain student’s poor performance and refused to give him a checkride. Looking back that was the voice of professional experience talking.
The pilot in question eventually finished their training up somewhere else and then accumulated a spotty record gaining flight experience. Eventually this pilot landed a position with a rapidly expanding commuter airline and later as the pilot in command flew a fully loaded twin engine airplane into the side of a mountain killing 18 passengers his virtually brand new first officer and himself. The accident report is damning!
People’s lives are in the balance. At some point you as an instructor need to put an end to it.
I remember a senior instructor fuming about a certain student’s poor performance and refused to give him a checkride. Looking back that was the voice of professional experience talking.
The pilot in question eventually finished their training up somewhere else and then accumulated a spotty record gaining flight experience. Eventually this pilot landed a position with a rapidly expanding commuter airline and later as the pilot in command flew a fully loaded twin engine airplane into the side of a mountain killing 18 passengers his virtually brand new first officer and himself. The accident report is damning!
People’s lives are in the balance. At some point you as an instructor need to put an end to it.
Last edited by Northbeach; 11th Jan 2009 at 00:07.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While we are on the issue of 'choice' instructors, I have just done my Night Qualification out of Liverpool... First two hours the bloke was very pleasant... until my circuit session.
Here are a few of the things that happened:
1. Climb out - I was taught best rate of climb.
This guy made me climb so I could see the horizon, barely a climb at all.
I played his game... three circuits later with the nose sat just on the horizon he wanted to know why I wasn't climbing...
2. As you turn crosswind I was taught to have a quick glance over your shoulder at the aerodrome so you can orientate yourself in the circuit for good landmarks etc.
He started yelling at me to know wtf I was doing... Four circuits later he was saying... "Now glance over your shoulder..."
3. I was taught that after turning base leg to throttle back, bring the speed back to 80kts, one stage of flap, then trim for 70kts...
This cheese had me deploying full flap at 1000ft at 90kts straight after turning base leg, above the flap limiting speed!
4. On one approach I was high, I raised my hand over the throttle to reduce power...
He went irate demanding to know why I was adding power??
5. One another circuit I was getting low, I whacked in some power. 'Never be shy of using power if you need it...' As I was taught by an experienced ex RAF pilot.
Our 'hero' then lost it, "WHY ARE YOU ADDING POWER??" My response, "So I don't get low and slow!" Cue blank expression from him.
6. On climb out on one circuit he asked: "Engines failed. Whatcha gonna do?" My response, "Glide speed, 70kts and look for the best spot 30 degrees either side of the nose..."
He lost it... AGAIN. "NO, NO, NO... What is the right answer?" I just looked at him. His response: "You push the nose forward!!" He yelled.
Does that not go without saying?
"Yeah, I'll make sure that on an Emergency Stop in my car I don't forget to press the footbrake, too..."
By this stage after being yelled at for two hours I was a nervous wreck and questioning whether or not I even knew the basics of flight... He then sent me solo!! Good idea, turn your student into a quivering wreck, then solo him!
He had previously told me to do my four full stops then on the fifth leave the circuit and do a short nav trip, but I didn't have to if I didn't want. Just as long as I left the circuit. I went off, then did the short nav trip... I got back and then told me we had to work on our communication.
Now, if we had been on the ground and he had spoken to like that, where I'm from we have a way of dealing with people like that... But I let it slide, as after shutting down the aircraft he apologised profusely... STRANGE MAN. I class instructors like him as dangerous...
Biff.
Here are a few of the things that happened:
1. Climb out - I was taught best rate of climb.
This guy made me climb so I could see the horizon, barely a climb at all.
I played his game... three circuits later with the nose sat just on the horizon he wanted to know why I wasn't climbing...
2. As you turn crosswind I was taught to have a quick glance over your shoulder at the aerodrome so you can orientate yourself in the circuit for good landmarks etc.
He started yelling at me to know wtf I was doing... Four circuits later he was saying... "Now glance over your shoulder..."
3. I was taught that after turning base leg to throttle back, bring the speed back to 80kts, one stage of flap, then trim for 70kts...
This cheese had me deploying full flap at 1000ft at 90kts straight after turning base leg, above the flap limiting speed!
4. On one approach I was high, I raised my hand over the throttle to reduce power...
He went irate demanding to know why I was adding power??
5. One another circuit I was getting low, I whacked in some power. 'Never be shy of using power if you need it...' As I was taught by an experienced ex RAF pilot.
Our 'hero' then lost it, "WHY ARE YOU ADDING POWER??" My response, "So I don't get low and slow!" Cue blank expression from him.
6. On climb out on one circuit he asked: "Engines failed. Whatcha gonna do?" My response, "Glide speed, 70kts and look for the best spot 30 degrees either side of the nose..."
He lost it... AGAIN. "NO, NO, NO... What is the right answer?" I just looked at him. His response: "You push the nose forward!!" He yelled.
Does that not go without saying?
"Yeah, I'll make sure that on an Emergency Stop in my car I don't forget to press the footbrake, too..."
By this stage after being yelled at for two hours I was a nervous wreck and questioning whether or not I even knew the basics of flight... He then sent me solo!! Good idea, turn your student into a quivering wreck, then solo him!
He had previously told me to do my four full stops then on the fifth leave the circuit and do a short nav trip, but I didn't have to if I didn't want. Just as long as I left the circuit. I went off, then did the short nav trip... I got back and then told me we had to work on our communication.
Now, if we had been on the ground and he had spoken to like that, where I'm from we have a way of dealing with people like that... But I let it slide, as after shutting down the aircraft he apologised profusely... STRANGE MAN. I class instructors like him as dangerous...
Biff.
Last edited by Poose; 11th Jan 2009 at 00:22.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK.
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Poose,
Are you sure he was an instructor? Pretty basic mistakes!
I suppose you will get them up and down the country, but the chiefs of the flight schools should be picking up on these idiots.
Are you sure he was an instructor? Pretty basic mistakes!
I suppose you will get them up and down the country, but the chiefs of the flight schools should be picking up on these idiots.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Age: 40
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good thread!
this is a very interesting thread.
My experience:
At my previous flight school I had a great instructor, very strict, but professional and he really knew how to explain things. I really loved flying with him and I was always motivated to do an excellent job and try to never disapoint him. As a result I had excellent feebacks even from the CFIs, and knew i was "good". I wasn't flying enough because of some issues at the school so I moved.
Since I am at this new school, it's like I lost my confidence when flying. Lessons are always rushed, not organised, no briefings. My instructor would teach me something, I would apply it and the next day he would say "this is wrong" and teach me another method I managed to get my PPL licence with 55h but I stopped flying since.
I heard about another school where they seem to be very professional, I am going to try it, and I will ask to do a BIG review of the PPL flight skills before moving to Night Rating. There are many knowledge areas where I feel like something is missing and I need to get that confidence back. Especially cross countries, diversions, and procedures at uncontrolled aeroromes. This is something I was ashamed of but then I realised it is not my fault. It is very frustrating because I feel like I wasted time, and because of that, I have to spend more money.
Now I know that the quality of instruction is far more important than finishing as fast as possible
My experience:
At my previous flight school I had a great instructor, very strict, but professional and he really knew how to explain things. I really loved flying with him and I was always motivated to do an excellent job and try to never disapoint him. As a result I had excellent feebacks even from the CFIs, and knew i was "good". I wasn't flying enough because of some issues at the school so I moved.
Since I am at this new school, it's like I lost my confidence when flying. Lessons are always rushed, not organised, no briefings. My instructor would teach me something, I would apply it and the next day he would say "this is wrong" and teach me another method
I managed to get my PPL licence with 55h but I stopped flying since. I heard about another school where they seem to be very professional, I am going to try it, and I will ask to do a BIG review of the PPL flight skills before moving to Night Rating. There are many knowledge areas where I feel like something is missing and I need to get that confidence back. Especially cross countries, diversions, and procedures at uncontrolled aeroromes. This is something I was ashamed of but then I realised it is not my fault. It is very frustrating because I feel like I wasted time, and because of that, I have to spend more money.
Now I know that the quality of instruction is far more important than finishing as fast as possible
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After seeing the above response, it struck a cord with me.
I had an RAF Flying Scholarship back in 1998, I was rated as 'Above Average'. I polished off my PPL back in 2000. No dramas.
Returned to flying back in 2006, got this one examiner for my revalidation who ****** me around royally, and had me convinced I couldn't land an aeroplane... Another two attempts at the test later 'I'll let you through, you're safe'... Every time I saw him around the flying school he used to interject any conversation I was having with an instructor or whoever with the comment; "You should know!!" In a sarcastic fashion...
It got me in the situation where I was semi-reluctant of asking the instuctors at the club for advice in case I got flippent remarks back. I think that is a DANGEROUS environment... Fortuneately he has left...
Avoid Wolverhampton, shall we say...
I get the impression that if the face doesn't fit with these people, they will **** you around... and ultimately sometimes Instructors have no people skills or are just disinterested. It happens.
That was a few years ago now, but it did hit my confidence for a while.
A brave thread you put up on there! I would like to bet it strikes a cord with many, but they are frightened to say, in case they are accused of being crap.
Think about this. Poor driving instructors aren't uncommon...
After the night flying debacle I've realised that 'choice flying instructors' aren't uncommon, luckily I'm older and wiser.
However, I do believe that treatment like this could manifest itself quite badly in a young inexperienced wannabe. They could go off and kill themself in error as they were 'frightened to ask' a pertinent question or quit flying as they believed it to be some 'dark art' that they just don't possess.
PM me Jumbo744, if you like.
I had an RAF Flying Scholarship back in 1998, I was rated as 'Above Average'. I polished off my PPL back in 2000. No dramas.
Returned to flying back in 2006, got this one examiner for my revalidation who ****** me around royally, and had me convinced I couldn't land an aeroplane... Another two attempts at the test later 'I'll let you through, you're safe'... Every time I saw him around the flying school he used to interject any conversation I was having with an instructor or whoever with the comment; "You should know!!" In a sarcastic fashion...
It got me in the situation where I was semi-reluctant of asking the instuctors at the club for advice in case I got flippent remarks back. I think that is a DANGEROUS environment... Fortuneately he has left...
Avoid Wolverhampton, shall we say...
I get the impression that if the face doesn't fit with these people, they will **** you around... and ultimately sometimes Instructors have no people skills or are just disinterested. It happens.
That was a few years ago now, but it did hit my confidence for a while.
A brave thread you put up on there! I would like to bet it strikes a cord with many, but they are frightened to say, in case they are accused of being crap.
Think about this. Poor driving instructors aren't uncommon...
After the night flying debacle I've realised that 'choice flying instructors' aren't uncommon, luckily I'm older and wiser.
However, I do believe that treatment like this could manifest itself quite badly in a young inexperienced wannabe. They could go off and kill themself in error as they were 'frightened to ask' a pertinent question or quit flying as they believed it to be some 'dark art' that they just don't possess.
PM me Jumbo744, if you like.
Last edited by Poose; 11th Jan 2009 at 00:58.