Cardiff Academy of Aviation
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Church Village (Cardiff), United Kingdom
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Just as well I never started my PPL training at Cardiff! I did go down there just before they went bust and almost handed over my membership fee!!
Oh well, looks as if it's Bristol
Scott
Just as well I never started my PPL training at Cardiff! I did go down there just before they went bust and almost handed over my membership fee!!
Oh well, looks as if it's Bristol
Scott
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Well that includes the upstairs but that has been leased out direct to the ppl who were running it when the club were there.
However... I reckon you'd still be looking at 20k plus though. especially with rates etc. as far as i am aware (this is not confirmed) the acadmy were paying in excess of 30k per year including the restaurant space. I'm not sure if that was with or without rates.
Given the current 'economic climate' I reckon deals could be done with the airport authority or maybe just take over a small section of the building.
I think if it was intended to be run as a members run / non-profit organisation then a break even is possible with the right ppl on board and enough interested members. That is based on leasing a small area of the building.
Ryan
However... I reckon you'd still be looking at 20k plus though. especially with rates etc. as far as i am aware (this is not confirmed) the acadmy were paying in excess of 30k per year including the restaurant space. I'm not sure if that was with or without rates.
Given the current 'economic climate' I reckon deals could be done with the airport authority or maybe just take over a small section of the building.
I think if it was intended to be run as a members run / non-profit organisation then a break even is possible with the right ppl on board and enough interested members. That is based on leasing a small area of the building.
Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
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Hi Ryan,
It would be easy for me to respond to your PM via PM but I'll do so in the open as I'm not too big to apologise if I feel I may have offended and I do so unreservedly for my use of the word 'oik' although I really did not mean it in it's literal context.
I have always been very complimentary of the services received at Cardiff and I'm also not suggesting that you personally or your colleagues at Cardiff aren't interested in your job - it was a generalisation based on personal experiences (but not at Cardiff I should add, although waiting southside for nearly 2 hours for fuel, during which time only one other aircraft landed, which was 20% more expensive than anywhere else locally didn't exactly endear me to the service - funnily enough the aircraft didn't fly 20% faster!!).
I also appreciate that the guy on the ground has no control over fees, however, I will qualify my statement regarding handling fees for GA as being a total rip-off as there appears little if any justification for them. There are stacks of aerodromes all over the UK where the tower gives a simple instruction "Park on Line 4, Space B" and we can manage that by ourselves quite easily. On the flip side, every time I have been 'handled' in the UK I have been directed towards a space big enough to park a battleship in which did not require marshalling.
Draw a comparison with the USA where the marshaller will direct you into a tight space, chock the aircraft, tie it down, arrange your fuel, give you a lift to the FBO, arrange a hotel and taxi or even take you there himself, generally all for the pricely sum of $ 0.00. That is a service worth paying for and they charge you nothing whereas in the UK we get charged the earth and don't get anything remotely resembling the same service.
Recently, in Corfu, the Handling Agent picked us up at the aircraft and took us to the terminal, arranged the hotel, taxi and fuel for the following morning then met us the following day and accompanied us all the way through the booking out and FPL filing (including a visit to the tower to discuss the best route with ATC) and took us back to the aircraft again - the service was first class and cost about £ 40 for the landing, overnight parking and exceptional handling service. The landing fee alone in most UK aerodromes would have been more than that.
The point I am making is that in the UK we get virtually nothing for our money and I resent that. Where a decent value-for-money service is provided I have no problem with paying for it but I do not feel this is the current status quo with handling fees for GA.
Please tell me I'm wrong - what do we get at Cardiff for our £ 65.00?
How much will you charge me for handling at Cardiff if I have to divert there at 10 o'clock at night owing to bad weather or an unexpected problem?
It would be easy for me to respond to your PM via PM but I'll do so in the open as I'm not too big to apologise if I feel I may have offended and I do so unreservedly for my use of the word 'oik' although I really did not mean it in it's literal context.
I have always been very complimentary of the services received at Cardiff and I'm also not suggesting that you personally or your colleagues at Cardiff aren't interested in your job - it was a generalisation based on personal experiences (but not at Cardiff I should add, although waiting southside for nearly 2 hours for fuel, during which time only one other aircraft landed, which was 20% more expensive than anywhere else locally didn't exactly endear me to the service - funnily enough the aircraft didn't fly 20% faster!!).
I also appreciate that the guy on the ground has no control over fees, however, I will qualify my statement regarding handling fees for GA as being a total rip-off as there appears little if any justification for them. There are stacks of aerodromes all over the UK where the tower gives a simple instruction "Park on Line 4, Space B" and we can manage that by ourselves quite easily. On the flip side, every time I have been 'handled' in the UK I have been directed towards a space big enough to park a battleship in which did not require marshalling.
Draw a comparison with the USA where the marshaller will direct you into a tight space, chock the aircraft, tie it down, arrange your fuel, give you a lift to the FBO, arrange a hotel and taxi or even take you there himself, generally all for the pricely sum of $ 0.00. That is a service worth paying for and they charge you nothing whereas in the UK we get charged the earth and don't get anything remotely resembling the same service.
Recently, in Corfu, the Handling Agent picked us up at the aircraft and took us to the terminal, arranged the hotel, taxi and fuel for the following morning then met us the following day and accompanied us all the way through the booking out and FPL filing (including a visit to the tower to discuss the best route with ATC) and took us back to the aircraft again - the service was first class and cost about £ 40 for the landing, overnight parking and exceptional handling service. The landing fee alone in most UK aerodromes would have been more than that.
The point I am making is that in the UK we get virtually nothing for our money and I resent that. Where a decent value-for-money service is provided I have no problem with paying for it but I do not feel this is the current status quo with handling fees for GA.
Please tell me I'm wrong - what do we get at Cardiff for our £ 65.00?
How much will you charge me for handling at Cardiff if I have to divert there at 10 o'clock at night owing to bad weather or an unexpected problem?
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Do Yourself A Big Favour
Nathanial, you are young and very keen and I hate to dampen such enthusiasm. Believe me that over the years the flying operation has been run as both a business and a members owned club. Both models have their merits -
As a business the management can make executive decisions without recourse to the members but there is never enough profit to give an investor a return.
As a members club the politics and committee paralysis eventually come to the fore and kill the organisation.
The running costs of such an operation are very high and the big variables of weather and unforeseen costs, usually aircraft maintenance, make it very difficult to do anything other than firefight.
It is very unlikely that the airport would entertain another operation but even if they would my advice as someone who has been involved in the past would be to keep well away. You really will be letting yourself in for a grim experience.
The only viable model in my opinion is for one of the more established national flying operations to set up a branch in Cardiff but I guess in the current economy this is highly unlikely.
Remember the old adage that "the way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a very large one" - sadly there are many who once showed your enthusiasm who can testify to the wisdom in this.
As a business the management can make executive decisions without recourse to the members but there is never enough profit to give an investor a return.
As a members club the politics and committee paralysis eventually come to the fore and kill the organisation.
The running costs of such an operation are very high and the big variables of weather and unforeseen costs, usually aircraft maintenance, make it very difficult to do anything other than firefight.
It is very unlikely that the airport would entertain another operation but even if they would my advice as someone who has been involved in the past would be to keep well away. You really will be letting yourself in for a grim experience.
The only viable model in my opinion is for one of the more established national flying operations to set up a branch in Cardiff but I guess in the current economy this is highly unlikely.
Remember the old adage that "the way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a very large one" - sadly there are many who once showed your enthusiasm who can testify to the wisdom in this.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Uk Ga No Way
Nat may be the next Branson but many have tried and failed to make it pay. To add to the above,
GA generally and FTO's especially are a nightmare here for numerous reasons
Larger airports (notice how they're nearly all 'International') are allowed to price in a way which makes GA use prohibitively expensive. Even if you can tolerate that, the building rent, fuel cost etc will screw you again.
Any operator (Commercial or 'Club') faces, also, the problem of obtaining adequate utilisation of aircraft and other overheads. Apart from weather, FTO demand is usually either minimal (e.g.weekdays in Winter) or excessive (e.g. calm and sunny weekend in Summer). All that makes it difficult to provide continuity of employment for engineers, instructors etc. The net result is that the student pays a fortune for what is often an unsatisfactory experience but, even then, the FTO isn't making any money !
The better GA and training environment in the USA is down partly to Government and partly to better business as well as, generally, better weather in Florida, California etc.
Landing charges are not allowed at any airports (most) which have had funding from taxes. Also, many GA businesses sell fuel so are keen to make you want to 'call-in'. FTO's achieve much higher utilisation because of weather and offering course or hour building packages to customers. Also, fuel is much cheaper ( currently about 40p litre) as, I assume, are parts and other aviation supplies. Hence, a much cheaper and better flying experience.
The Florida airport with which I am familar has good runways (but has no scheduled or charter services), tower, modern buildings and 24 hour self-service fuel (see Ormond Beach Aviation - Home Page - Welcome!).
Ormond Beach is by no means unique and the USA has many similar airports which are streets ahead of the alternatives in the UK.
GA generally and FTO's especially are a nightmare here for numerous reasons
Larger airports (notice how they're nearly all 'International') are allowed to price in a way which makes GA use prohibitively expensive. Even if you can tolerate that, the building rent, fuel cost etc will screw you again.
Any operator (Commercial or 'Club') faces, also, the problem of obtaining adequate utilisation of aircraft and other overheads. Apart from weather, FTO demand is usually either minimal (e.g.weekdays in Winter) or excessive (e.g. calm and sunny weekend in Summer). All that makes it difficult to provide continuity of employment for engineers, instructors etc. The net result is that the student pays a fortune for what is often an unsatisfactory experience but, even then, the FTO isn't making any money !
The better GA and training environment in the USA is down partly to Government and partly to better business as well as, generally, better weather in Florida, California etc.
Landing charges are not allowed at any airports (most) which have had funding from taxes. Also, many GA businesses sell fuel so are keen to make you want to 'call-in'. FTO's achieve much higher utilisation because of weather and offering course or hour building packages to customers. Also, fuel is much cheaper ( currently about 40p litre) as, I assume, are parts and other aviation supplies. Hence, a much cheaper and better flying experience.
The Florida airport with which I am familar has good runways (but has no scheduled or charter services), tower, modern buildings and 24 hour self-service fuel (see Ormond Beach Aviation - Home Page - Welcome!).
Ormond Beach is by no means unique and the USA has many similar airports which are streets ahead of the alternatives in the UK.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2close,
We do understand that our fuel rate is on the higher side locally but this again is not set by myself. Our bowser is leased from AirBP who don't want to operate it themselves, fair enough I think. 40000 litres of Jet-A1 or 40 litres of Avgas.... I think I know where the money is....
As a result the bowser had previously been leased to an old flying club who folded and then ourselves. And if we didnt operate it what stable company would?
I know you may have to wait for fuel at times and I apologize for that but unfortunately our primary business is handling. If you do have to wait then we usually have passengers or crew with us. The process does not start or end when the aircraft arrives or departs and on weekends there is only one of us on duty.
There is no argument about the UK being expensive for GA, i completely agree and if it was a reasonable rate i'd probably have done a PPL myself at some point.
With your point of marshalling i agree that us pointing you to a massive space is OTT but it is a requirement of most airport authorities including Cardiff.
And for a 2200 diversion into Cardiff, I know the point you are trying make and yes it is alot when you consider the OOH charges etc but those OOH charges are the same for every a/c type, that way it is fair.
Ryan
We do understand that our fuel rate is on the higher side locally but this again is not set by myself. Our bowser is leased from AirBP who don't want to operate it themselves, fair enough I think. 40000 litres of Jet-A1 or 40 litres of Avgas.... I think I know where the money is....
As a result the bowser had previously been leased to an old flying club who folded and then ourselves. And if we didnt operate it what stable company would?
I know you may have to wait for fuel at times and I apologize for that but unfortunately our primary business is handling. If you do have to wait then we usually have passengers or crew with us. The process does not start or end when the aircraft arrives or departs and on weekends there is only one of us on duty.
There is no argument about the UK being expensive for GA, i completely agree and if it was a reasonable rate i'd probably have done a PPL myself at some point.
With your point of marshalling i agree that us pointing you to a massive space is OTT but it is a requirement of most airport authorities including Cardiff.
And for a 2200 diversion into Cardiff, I know the point you are trying make and yes it is alot when you consider the OOH charges etc but those OOH charges are the same for every a/c type, that way it is fair.
Ryan
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Cardiff Flying Clubs
Although the flying academy - or whatever it was called, has closed there is still a pleasant bar/restaurant called "The Flying Club" on the site which is open all day every day. The licensee there tells me that over the years there have been no fewer than 22 flying clubs which have been started - and gone bust - at Cardiff Airport.
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CWFC - No training base or club at Cardiff Wales?
In a moment of nostalgia I did a search for Cardfiff Wales Flying Club where I had many a good time flying a motley collection of Traumahawks and PA28's and garnering a rating or two in the mid 90's (and flying with some really nice people) only to find out that I am half a decade out and the club went bust in 2004 only to be replaced by a flying academy that has just recently gone bust.
What is up with this airport?
It seemed to be an ideal place for ab initio through to ATPL training, giving the student the experience of flying at an international airport (Class D airspace) with ILS, NDB and the unrestricted non TMA constrained flying over some really stunning country out to the north and west (I remember mixing it with people getting Airbus type ratings etc. and being pleasantly surprised that with a friendly and efficient air traffic control set up that it all seemed to work, no matter what you were flying).
Rumour has it that the international part of the airport (north side) is also feeling the down turn.
What a waste! Surely there must be mileage in looking to build a training organisation on the South Side?
What is up with this airport?
It seemed to be an ideal place for ab initio through to ATPL training, giving the student the experience of flying at an international airport (Class D airspace) with ILS, NDB and the unrestricted non TMA constrained flying over some really stunning country out to the north and west (I remember mixing it with people getting Airbus type ratings etc. and being pleasantly surprised that with a friendly and efficient air traffic control set up that it all seemed to work, no matter what you were flying).
Rumour has it that the international part of the airport (north side) is also feeling the down turn.
What a waste! Surely there must be mileage in looking to build a training organisation on the South Side?
Last edited by Michael Birbeck; 17th Jun 2009 at 22:16.
Join Date: May 2004
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Hi,
I learned with CWFC and really did enjoy the experience, it is sadly missed.
If you want to get back into a PA38 they are all down Swansea with a large amount of Cardiff students.
Pop in and recapture the excitement
If you want to enjoy general aviation in South Wales Swansea is the place for you.
I learned with CWFC and really did enjoy the experience, it is sadly missed.
If you want to get back into a PA38 they are all down Swansea with a large amount of Cardiff students.
Pop in and recapture the excitement
If you want to enjoy general aviation in South Wales Swansea is the place for you.
MB,
Your are spot on, Cardiff/South East Wales is crying out for a GA base, notwithstanding the current downturn. It was a real shame to watch CWFC go down the tubes as there were some very good people there and one very good career instructor left aviation altogether. Poor management the root cause, though I don't think the authorities on the north side were totally behind GA flying.
As for the recent outfit, popped in there twice a couple of years back and couldn't get back out quick enough - very unfriendly and rude. Not surprised they went to the wall.
I believe Swansea is good, but if you live in Cardiff or anywhere north or east of it, Swansea is just too far - hour plus to get there which ain't the best preparation for a lesson if you've dashed down there after work. May be OK for some, but wouldn't have worked for me.
Lets hope when things pick up that GA training will return to SE Wales for there is the catchment to support it.
P
Your are spot on, Cardiff/South East Wales is crying out for a GA base, notwithstanding the current downturn. It was a real shame to watch CWFC go down the tubes as there were some very good people there and one very good career instructor left aviation altogether. Poor management the root cause, though I don't think the authorities on the north side were totally behind GA flying.
As for the recent outfit, popped in there twice a couple of years back and couldn't get back out quick enough - very unfriendly and rude. Not surprised they went to the wall.
I believe Swansea is good, but if you live in Cardiff or anywhere north or east of it, Swansea is just too far - hour plus to get there which ain't the best preparation for a lesson if you've dashed down there after work. May be OK for some, but wouldn't have worked for me.
Lets hope when things pick up that GA training will return to SE Wales for there is the catchment to support it.
P
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@Pipertommy
It would be great to fly the PA38 again. I will make an X country to Swansea later this summer (based in Essex these days). Is it my fading memory or wasn't the runway there shaped a little like a banana? Whatever the case, it seemed a friendly field and club..
@Parsom
I agree it is a great shame. I do remember that when I was training at Cardiff that I started with a company called Wings, which promptly went bust when I joined, so I graduated to CWF. Was trained by a really nice guy called Dave Sarver. I believe he went on to BA to fly Embraers. If one wanted to do some IR practice is there an ILS at Swansea?
Best to all
MB
It would be great to fly the PA38 again. I will make an X country to Swansea later this summer (based in Essex these days). Is it my fading memory or wasn't the runway there shaped a little like a banana? Whatever the case, it seemed a friendly field and club.
.@Parsom
I agree it is a great shame. I do remember that when I was training at Cardiff that I started with a company called Wings, which promptly went bust when I joined, so I graduated to CWF. Was trained by a really nice guy called Dave Sarver. I believe he went on to BA to fly Embraers. If one wanted to do some IR practice is there an ILS at Swansea?
Best to all
MB
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Yes Rwy 22 does have a slight hump/dip behond the TDZ but nothing to major.
You should come in to Swansea a real hub of activity on Saturday and Sundays.
You should come in to Swansea a real hub of activity on Saturday and Sundays.
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I believe Swansea is good, but if you live in Cardiff or anywhere north or east of it, Swansea is just too far
I'm happy with the choice I made and can't fault the friendly instructors or the clubs fleet.
I would agree that a 0-fATPL FTO would be perfect at CWL though, I'd certainly consider it being only 15/20 mins away.
