End of ATPL bank funding?
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I'm looking here at a screen of red. The inter bank lending rates have spiked upwards. EVERYONE, every bank, every insurer, every broker, every hedge fund is hoarding their capital.
I seriously doubt whether in 2 months time you'll be able to get a 90% mortgage on a UK house. Chances of finding someone stupid enough to lend £70,000 for some dreamer to get a ticket to fly aeroplanes that are being parked in the desert are slimmer still.
The is APOCALYPSE. OK, you won't need a foil hat, shotgun and bunker to survive but do not go thinking that things are going to go back to the way they were. They will not. Only a serious recession can squeeze out the inflation, reallocate the capital and reform the economic and financial structures enough to sort out the massive problems that have been built up for the last decade.
Learn Mandarin, move to Hong Kong and live in a tent. Do not remortgage your parents house to spend £70,000 on a piece of paper nobody is interested in in a country that is bankrupt. Next year firms like Chrysler and Ford will go bust. Small (< 250 airframes) non-global airlines will be small fry in the great unwinding.
Thousands of Millions of pounds are going up in smoke every day so far this month. Some of that money lubricated the global aviation system. Oil pressures are dropping. Temperatures are rising. Vibrations are being felt, the Master Caution is lit, the Autopilot just dropped out, there's a funny smell...
I seriously doubt whether in 2 months time you'll be able to get a 90% mortgage on a UK house. Chances of finding someone stupid enough to lend £70,000 for some dreamer to get a ticket to fly aeroplanes that are being parked in the desert are slimmer still.
The is APOCALYPSE. OK, you won't need a foil hat, shotgun and bunker to survive but do not go thinking that things are going to go back to the way they were. They will not. Only a serious recession can squeeze out the inflation, reallocate the capital and reform the economic and financial structures enough to sort out the massive problems that have been built up for the last decade.
Learn Mandarin, move to Hong Kong and live in a tent. Do not remortgage your parents house to spend £70,000 on a piece of paper nobody is interested in in a country that is bankrupt. Next year firms like Chrysler and Ford will go bust. Small (< 250 airframes) non-global airlines will be small fry in the great unwinding.
Thousands of Millions of pounds are going up in smoke every day so far this month. Some of that money lubricated the global aviation system. Oil pressures are dropping. Temperatures are rising. Vibrations are being felt, the Master Caution is lit, the Autopilot just dropped out, there's a funny smell...
Join Date: May 2008
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and it smells like a gutshot knee jerk panic spreading thread on a rumour forum.
Theres two ways to look at this; positively -by that keep your head up, keep working hard and try and get through this,
or negativly.
I know which i prefer.
Theres two ways to look at this; positively -by that keep your head up, keep working hard and try and get through this,
or negativly.
I know which i prefer.
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Blind faith is akin to stupidity.
You can put a positive spin on anything, the facts are that the industry is in a state of turmoil and only prudent planning will see you through. The likes of Cabair and OAA (also refer back to positive spin) will not help you get a non existent job. I'm sure there will be a trickle of Grads walking in to Employment but are you willing to bet your wad of cash on the chance you'll be one of them?
I personally think you'd get better odds in Vegas, save your coin and watch this space. Be one of the ones that times it to perfection for the up-turn.
You can put a positive spin on anything, the facts are that the industry is in a state of turmoil and only prudent planning will see you through. The likes of Cabair and OAA (also refer back to positive spin) will not help you get a non existent job. I'm sure there will be a trickle of Grads walking in to Employment but are you willing to bet your wad of cash on the chance you'll be one of them?
I personally think you'd get better odds in Vegas, save your coin and watch this space. Be one of the ones that times it to perfection for the up-turn.
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There is no way I would be looking at an ATPL course at the moment. So many experienced pilots are going to be unemployed in the very near future. The vast majority of fATPL holders are going to have a long wait before they will be considered for employment.
D O Guerrero - good points and very well made.
Hypocrisy duly removed.
D O Guerrero - good points and very well made.
Hypocrisy duly removed.
Last edited by GS-Alpha; 19th Sep 2008 at 19:46.
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Guys don't you think you're doing him a bit of a disservice assuming that because he wrote in txt speak on an internet forum he is therefore going to construct a c.v. using the same vocabulary?
Txt speak is bad. I think he gets it.
Txt speak is bad. I think he gets it.
Thread Starter
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GS-Alpha... Don't you mean affect rather than effect? And advice rather than advise? Not that it really matters, but if you're going to go on about text speak, perhaps get your own speak right first?
Perhaps we could get back on topic anyway? I would have thought that the apparent absence of bank funding would be more of a hindrance to getting a job than a preference for writing in text speak....
Perhaps we could get back on topic anyway? I would have thought that the apparent absence of bank funding would be more of a hindrance to getting a job than a preference for writing in text speak....
Last edited by D O Guerrero; 17th Sep 2008 at 12:07.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Anyway, back at the thread . . .
You'll have noted that Libor (the rate at which banks lend to each other) has gone silly over the last couple of days. When they are reluctant even to lend to each other, how do you think they'll view a 'business plan' to get £70k in debt to speculatively fund a commercial pilots licence? With no guaranteed job at the end of it and with a steady stream of airlines going bust?
You'll have noted that Libor (the rate at which banks lend to each other) has gone silly over the last couple of days. When they are reluctant even to lend to each other, how do you think they'll view a 'business plan' to get £70k in debt to speculatively fund a commercial pilots licence? With no guaranteed job at the end of it and with a steady stream of airlines going bust?
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I was a wannabe once, and there was negativity even in the good times. Fact is now no matter how positive you want to see things, they are in a terrible state, low houred newly qualified guys WILL NOT get any jobs for at least 3 to 4 years. That is a fact!! It is the worst downturn since Gulf War 1 with the worst recession expected since WW2(probably); do yourselves a favour and don't pay a bean in training fees. There will then be a shortage of pilots at the bottom and possibly in 3 to 4 years time airlines may start sponsoring again.
Many airlines will fold this year, even some household names! The market will be awash with high houred type-rated folk, and with the bear minimum during a period where airlines are not spending money unless the absolutely have to you're going to be waiting a long time. No-one is recruiting even RYR.
Many airlines will fold this year, even some household names! The market will be awash with high houred type-rated folk, and with the bear minimum during a period where airlines are not spending money unless the absolutely have to you're going to be waiting a long time. No-one is recruiting even RYR.
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do yourselves a favour and don't pay a bean in training fees. There will then be a shortage of pilots at the bottom and possibly in 3 to 4 years time airlines may start sponsoring again.
Thats abit like how so many people were saying DONT PAY FOR TRs and LINE TRAINING - that campaign didnt stop anyone!!
Bottom line is everyone thinks they have a shot at making it to the RHS of a jet. In reality they dont
. Hence why the likes of OAA are fully booked for months to come...Same reason as why do people play the lottery? because they actually believe they can win it against astronomical odds.
Aanyway, back to thread; apart from all the wild speculation about loans being stopped; have any banks actually stopped pilot loans; if so which ones and show us some evidence...
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Was on the phone to (mrs xxxx) no names ( intials Mrs B.Green) at the HSBC today (Milton Keynes), she is the advisor for the Professional Studies Loans, anyway, she was saying that although the clamps have come down BIGTIME on who gets the loans, they are however continuing on for the mean time...just not as many granted as half a year or so ago
Makes me think that the bank must see something we dont... I am not an expert so have no place to say. Just though i'd state that they are DEFINITE still giving out the loan.
And i reckon that SECURITY IS A MUST HAVE before applying,,, unsecured loans are well gone now,,, Again im not an expert so I can't comment..Just an opinion..
Makes me think that the bank must see something we dont... I am not an expert so have no place to say. Just though i'd state that they are DEFINITE still giving out the loan.
And i reckon that SECURITY IS A MUST HAVE before applying,,, unsecured loans are well gone now,,, Again im not an expert so I can't comment..Just an opinion..
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I think you are off your rocket if you think getting a secured loan for 70k is a good idea. (Sorry to put harshly)
In todays climate, where employment of new qualified pilots is low, qualified pilots are losing their jobs, housing markets are collapsing and the pound is losing control of itself it's a stupid move!
This is a storm thats going to be overhead for a number of years, let it pass before you start getting lost.
I remember reading WWW's posts thinking he was talking
about the industry, how I was wrong I never expected it to get this bad.
In todays climate, where employment of new qualified pilots is low, qualified pilots are losing their jobs, housing markets are collapsing and the pound is losing control of itself it's a stupid move!
This is a storm thats going to be overhead for a number of years, let it pass before you start getting lost.
I remember reading WWW's posts thinking he was talking
about the industry, how I was wrong I never expected it to get this bad.
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I appreciate you advice, however I didnt say for def that i was takn the loan, was just '''enquiring''' about that loan, havnt submitted an appl form or anything and was quite ''''shocked to hear they were still handing them out..
thats all, i think the whole thing is bloody mad to be honest...so bad i begin to laugh at the news every night....however as bad as it is,, it can only get better... well i keep telling myself that when i do the shopping...lol...
Even bloody milk costs a fortune now...lol.. dont be too genurous with it on you cereal...lol...
I see AIG got pulled out there last night,,, wonder will the gov here do anything like that here...lol... well the irish gov wnt thats for sure!!!!lol...
thats all, i think the whole thing is bloody mad to be honest...so bad i begin to laugh at the news every night....however as bad as it is,, it can only get better... well i keep telling myself that when i do the shopping...lol...
Even bloody milk costs a fortune now...lol.. dont be too genurous with it on you cereal...lol...
I see AIG got pulled out there last night,,, wonder will the gov here do anything like that here...lol... well the irish gov wnt thats for sure!!!!lol...
Supercharged PPRuNer
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I'm maybe a little slow, but presumably some people are still looking around for finance and still signing up for integrated courses?
Can anyone explain to me why they think that's a good idea? It's a genuine question, I really am curious as to the logic behind starting off on commercial training at the moment.
In fact, I'm more than curious, I'm baffled.
Can anyone explain to me why they think that's a good idea? It's a genuine question, I really am curious as to the logic behind starting off on commercial training at the moment.
In fact, I'm more than curious, I'm baffled.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I reckon they should ask my two mates who got laid off on Friday if it's such a good idea.
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For one, i pressume your an airline pilot already!!!!! ??
Well incase that you have forgottn what it is like to be a wannabe, its a dream that some young people have had and will always have, some people just want to do it NOW... its unfortunate but thats the case at the mo...
I guess people chew before they bite!!!!!
who did ur two mates fly for??? (out of interest just)
Well incase that you have forgottn what it is like to be a wannabe, its a dream that some young people have had and will always have, some people just want to do it NOW... its unfortunate but thats the case at the mo...
I guess people chew before they bite!!!!!
who did ur two mates fly for??? (out of interest just)
Reddo/G-Sxty - preserve your strength - I went blue in the face trying to save people from themselves months ago.
There is an army of Wannabe Zombies out there - no matter how fast you re-load the shotgun they just keep on coming. Moaning soft platitudes about dreams and waiving tattered loan application forms in the air. They are an unstoppable force who will not rest on the face of this earth until they reach their sacred tomb on the outskirts of Kiddlington or on its exact opposite location on the far side of the planet in New Zealand.
Resistance Is Futile!
WWW
There is an army of Wannabe Zombies out there - no matter how fast you re-load the shotgun they just keep on coming. Moaning soft platitudes about dreams and waiving tattered loan application forms in the air. They are an unstoppable force who will not rest on the face of this earth until they reach their sacred tomb on the outskirts of Kiddlington or on its exact opposite location on the far side of the planet in New Zealand.
Resistance Is Futile!
WWW
Supercharged PPRuNer
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incase that you have forgottn what it is like to be a wannabe
Yes I am an airline pilot. The reason I can still be bothered to post on the wannabe forums (unlike most of my colleagues) is because I want to help and advise youngsters and wannabes, and I really - really - don't want to see people burning vast amounts of cash when there are no realistic job prospects for some time to come.
There are a lot of sharks in the training industry. They know how much you're prepared to spend on this dream, and they will tell you what you want to hear while bleeding you dry. THAT is what I am trying to prevent, and THAT is why I am sitting here posting this, rather than reading up for my OPC.
So, my question still stands - does anyone think integrated training is a good idea at the moment?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
My mates worked for XL. One was a captain, he's got over 800 hours B737 command, over 2000 hours TT in jets with an overall TT of +5000 hours.The other colleague (who I did my ATPLs with at Coventry) has nearly 3,000 hours TT with ~ 2,200 hours jet. Another mate was with Zoom but he's just scored a nice Falcon job. 
If you intend on finishing within the next 6 months, that's your competition. If you intend on finishing in about 2 years time, they'll still be your competition as they emerge from whatever flying job they managed to get.
Airline pilot? Phh. Corporate jet pilot thanks.
My first sort of proper job in aviation was part time instructing but the recession in Australia of 1992-1993 was making it quite hard to earn any money from that so I had to keep in full time employment (lab tech) as well as bar attending and security work.
It took me ooh about 6 years to get my first full time paid job. Go on, read that again. 6 years! And was it on a nice B737? No. Was it on a nice Saab 340 or Embraer 145? No. It was on a Cessna 206. That's right. A piston.
Was it in my city I grew up in? No.
Was it in the same state as my family? No.
Heck, it wasn't even in the same time zone!!
For my first jet job I had to shift continents and start again. So I was an experienced "wannabe" in 2002. Ooh guess what the economy/job market was like then. Pretty much as it is now. Crap. So, Celtic Pilot, I DO know what I am talking about. I knew exactly what I had to do to get where I am now. Did I turn my nose up at the night ops job? No. Did I turn my nose up at flogging around in a Shorts 360 as an FO (even though I had double the experience as the captain next to me?) No.
Was I above driving all over the UK to "meet and greet", ie make contacts and visit employers? No.
Why did I do all that? From experience in another country taught me that's exactly what you have to do.
You can want it so bad it hurts etc but, if you haven't got a job then what are you going to do? Your IR scanning skills break down pretty quickly. IR ratings are expensive enough as is without having to worry about a type rating validity...
If I lost my job right now I have hoarded enough cash/made extra payments on mortgage to last me a year. I know what recessions are like.
Good luck.
BTW, I haven't said "don't learn to fly ever", I have advised to either delay commencement or go modular.
If you intend on finishing within the next 6 months, that's your competition. If you intend on finishing in about 2 years time, they'll still be your competition as they emerge from whatever flying job they managed to get.Airline pilot? Phh. Corporate jet pilot thanks.
My first sort of proper job in aviation was part time instructing but the recession in Australia of 1992-1993 was making it quite hard to earn any money from that so I had to keep in full time employment (lab tech) as well as bar attending and security work.
It took me ooh about 6 years to get my first full time paid job. Go on, read that again. 6 years! And was it on a nice B737? No. Was it on a nice Saab 340 or Embraer 145? No. It was on a Cessna 206. That's right. A piston.
Was it in my city I grew up in? No.
Was it in the same state as my family? No.
Heck, it wasn't even in the same time zone!!
For my first jet job I had to shift continents and start again. So I was an experienced "wannabe" in 2002. Ooh guess what the economy/job market was like then. Pretty much as it is now. Crap. So, Celtic Pilot, I DO know what I am talking about. I knew exactly what I had to do to get where I am now. Did I turn my nose up at the night ops job? No. Did I turn my nose up at flogging around in a Shorts 360 as an FO (even though I had double the experience as the captain next to me?) No.
Was I above driving all over the UK to "meet and greet", ie make contacts and visit employers? No.
Why did I do all that? From experience in another country taught me that's exactly what you have to do.
You can want it so bad it hurts etc but, if you haven't got a job then what are you going to do? Your IR scanning skills break down pretty quickly. IR ratings are expensive enough as is without having to worry about a type rating validity...
If I lost my job right now I have hoarded enough cash/made extra payments on mortgage to last me a year. I know what recessions are like.
Good luck.
BTW, I haven't said "don't learn to fly ever", I have advised to either delay commencement or go modular.
Last edited by redsnail; 17th Sep 2008 at 17:02.
