Am I an *ABSOLUTE* Jerk?!
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: LEEDS
Am I an *ABSOLUTE* Jerk?!
Here's the situation, I'm starting at FTE on the 13th Oct (yup, less than one month), and should be finished end of 2009, early 2010.
It's taken me a LONG time to get up to standard, get the money organised, get people behind me etc etc. Personal circs dictate that if I'm going to do this, it really has to be now. I've been working for an Airline for the past 3 years and have built good relationships, but there's a nice long list of people waiting for a job at the Airline/Base already so I'm not sure that that will count for much - especially given the current climate.
So.... Am I being a complete jerk??!! Should I cut my losses? And spend the rest of my working life thinking I could have built the dream if I had seen past the economy, fuel price & glut of experienced pilots now seeking work?? (Wait for it Alitalia.... Wait... For... It!!!). Or, should I throw caution to the wind and get stuck into it now - while i have probably what is my only opportunity, and maybe end up stoney broke for the next 10 years living in a tent in my folks back yard??!!
"Giz a hand"!!
Ps, anyone on the 13th Oct course??! -N-
It's taken me a LONG time to get up to standard, get the money organised, get people behind me etc etc. Personal circs dictate that if I'm going to do this, it really has to be now. I've been working for an Airline for the past 3 years and have built good relationships, but there's a nice long list of people waiting for a job at the Airline/Base already so I'm not sure that that will count for much - especially given the current climate.
So.... Am I being a complete jerk??!! Should I cut my losses? And spend the rest of my working life thinking I could have built the dream if I had seen past the economy, fuel price & glut of experienced pilots now seeking work?? (Wait for it Alitalia.... Wait... For... It!!!). Or, should I throw caution to the wind and get stuck into it now - while i have probably what is my only opportunity, and maybe end up stoney broke for the next 10 years living in a tent in my folks back yard??!!
"Giz a hand"!!
Ps, anyone on the 13th Oct course??! -N-
Last edited by justnick; 14th September 2008 at 15:32.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 468
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From: London
It's a really huge question, that only you know the answer to. I would think long and hard about it, but I am glad I went through all of my training - didn't want to go through life thinking "I wish I had tried".
You could always try and get in to Alitalia - only they are guaranteed to be here forever! You could always go modular - it doesn't necessarily have to take a lot longer than integrated to complete, keep your current job, and do it bit by bit. Not only does it cost less, but you risk less money, and you pay for it bit by bit.
You could always try and get in to Alitalia - only they are guaranteed to be here forever! You could always go modular - it doesn't necessarily have to take a lot longer than integrated to complete, keep your current job, and do it bit by bit. Not only does it cost less, but you risk less money, and you pay for it bit by bit.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 272
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From: UK
It sounds like you are pretty clued up so go for it!
If however you were an 18yr old about to put your parents house on the line for a loan, and no substantial funds or qualifications Id say give up now and comeback in 2yrs!!
All the best for the course at FTE, have fun!
If however you were an 18yr old about to put your parents house on the line for a loan, and no substantial funds or qualifications Id say give up now and comeback in 2yrs!!
All the best for the course at FTE, have fun!
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: the moon
why not wait 12 months? things are very uncertain now, but what is certain is that things will pick up some time down the line. id say wait 12 months, asses the situation ie. the job market then, and then make a decision. Training could take 18 months, i think to be newly qualified 2.5 years from now could be a good time, who knows maybe it could be 3-4 years or more. on the other hand things might be picking up 12 months from now. i think the situation will be alot clearer a year from now....pilot training is always somewhat of a gamble, but right now your odds of success are at a minimum.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Neither Here Nor There
If you can pull out of FTE and go down the Modular route this could be a good option.
You could still take a few months off work to get your PPL/Night/IMCR and have some fun gaining practical experience hour building doing decent X-country flights to various UK and EU locations over the next 6 - 12 months, even pop off to the US to get some cheap flying in. At the same time do the ATPL theory by Distance Learning and work back in your job, earning some cash whilst monitoring the economic situation.
Once your brain has been suitably frazzled by the ATPLs you have three years to get the ME, CPL and IR so again there is no drastic rush and you can take your time looking for a decent modular FTO to finish off your training, which should take no more than 6 months max.
If the climate is unhealthy you may even want to bolt on a FI(A) and do some instructing whilst waiting for that first opportunity.
Do the maths; you'll probably find this is a far cheaper option than the Integrated route.
However, if you're guranteed a FO position from your chosen FTO's integrated programme, that may be the best for you - I doubt it though.
Remember, there is always more than one way to skin a cat!!
HTH
2close
You could still take a few months off work to get your PPL/Night/IMCR and have some fun gaining practical experience hour building doing decent X-country flights to various UK and EU locations over the next 6 - 12 months, even pop off to the US to get some cheap flying in. At the same time do the ATPL theory by Distance Learning and work back in your job, earning some cash whilst monitoring the economic situation.
Once your brain has been suitably frazzled by the ATPLs you have three years to get the ME, CPL and IR so again there is no drastic rush and you can take your time looking for a decent modular FTO to finish off your training, which should take no more than 6 months max.
If the climate is unhealthy you may even want to bolt on a FI(A) and do some instructing whilst waiting for that first opportunity.
Do the maths; you'll probably find this is a far cheaper option than the Integrated route.
However, if you're guranteed a FO position from your chosen FTO's integrated programme, that may be the best for you - I doubt it though.
Remember, there is always more than one way to skin a cat!!
HTH
2close
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,233
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From: N/A
Hi Nick,
As WWW said, take the cost of pulling out into consideration but don't let it stop you from pulling out. You may lose your deposit but what's that compared to how much you'll be losing when you have a fATPL to maintain and no dead certain chance of getting a job. I've advised many of my friends that they should consider maybe working for a little longer - save even more money so less stress is on the bank. It's important to remember that there are lots of guys who've just entered the job market with lots of hours and experience on heavy aircraft who'll be just as desperate as you are to get a job. Chances are that those numbers are going to rise over the next year as more and more airlines go bust. You're young and shouldn't be worried about rushing into an intergrated scheme. This could end up lasting a few years.
Rant over! (for now)
S88 a.k.a John
As WWW said, take the cost of pulling out into consideration but don't let it stop you from pulling out. You may lose your deposit but what's that compared to how much you'll be losing when you have a fATPL to maintain and no dead certain chance of getting a job. I've advised many of my friends that they should consider maybe working for a little longer - save even more money so less stress is on the bank. It's important to remember that there are lots of guys who've just entered the job market with lots of hours and experience on heavy aircraft who'll be just as desperate as you are to get a job. Chances are that those numbers are going to rise over the next year as more and more airlines go bust. You're young and shouldn't be worried about rushing into an intergrated scheme. This could end up lasting a few years.
Rant over! (for now)
S88 a.k.a John
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 126
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From: Kemble, Cotswolds, UK
There is never a going to be a perfect time to start training. There will always be an element of risk and clouds on the horizon. It does not sound like you can afford to wait 12 months and I'm not sure what the benefit will be.
This is a classic peak/trough industry in the truest sense. If you get your training started now, there will be a peak on the way one day.
Its not a garuntee but there never are in this business it seems!
PS.
I'm completing a PPL and about to go modular...
This is a classic peak/trough industry in the truest sense. If you get your training started now, there will be a peak on the way one day.
Its not a garuntee but there never are in this business it seems!
PS.
I'm completing a PPL and about to go modular...
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: FL260
I would find the balance between chasing the dream and reality.
Yes it a dream job and a massive achievement for anyone to get in the right hand seat of a 737!
Looking at it practically, it just is not the time to pay out 60k on a course when things are so uncertain. As others have said do it modular and enjoy it taking your time and keep a good eye on the industry as you go.
My personal view is right now paying all that money is a huge gamble and I suspect most who are still enrolling on these courses are just focused on 'the dream' and not being realistic at all.
Just my opinion.....
Yes it a dream job and a massive achievement for anyone to get in the right hand seat of a 737!
Looking at it practically, it just is not the time to pay out 60k on a course when things are so uncertain. As others have said do it modular and enjoy it taking your time and keep a good eye on the industry as you go.
My personal view is right now paying all that money is a huge gamble and I suspect most who are still enrolling on these courses are just focused on 'the dream' and not being realistic at all.
Just my opinion.....
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9
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From: Coventry
Now or Never!
I agree. I have taken advice from this site & existing pilots who have seen this '7 year cycle' before. I personally could not afford the intergrated route, but even if money was no object - why? We know this situation is not going to right itself overnight. I have PPL, and have started the atpl theory through distance learning. In the meantime I need to build up a few more hours, gain night rating etc. I felt I needed to start this way now as I am 29 and would like to be actively looking whilst instructing by the time I am 33.
Lets hope it works out for everyone!
Lets hope it works out for everyone!
Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Coventry
That depends on the individuals attitude? I agree if someone is taking students money and is not passionate about it..... You will find some people who will put there passion into it, and get a positive result for both parties.... surely?
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 126
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From: Kemble, Cotswolds, UK
If you want to be an instructor, then instruct. I know I'd love to teach. But I'm not convinced it does anything at all for those waiting for an airline job.
Airlines are interested in professionals who will make good senior employees. Does 1,000 hrs Cessna demonstrate that? Maybe not.
Does teaching CCTs and visual navigation help keep the specific skills that the airline are looking for sharp? I'd need to be sure of that.
I can think of better ways to impress an Airline recruitment panel, but then I've got no rank on my shoulder to back up my opinion!
Airlines are interested in professionals who will make good senior employees. Does 1,000 hrs Cessna demonstrate that? Maybe not.
Does teaching CCTs and visual navigation help keep the specific skills that the airline are looking for sharp? I'd need to be sure of that.
I can think of better ways to impress an Airline recruitment panel, but then I've got no rank on my shoulder to back up my opinion!
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
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From: England
a) Flying every day will stop you getting too rusty
b) You meet people who know people
c) Hours are hours.
d) 1,000hrs GA might not do much for an airliner recruiter but it opens the door to flying a King Air or C410 which opens the door to flying a Turboprop which then opens the door to a BoeBus.
e) Though soul destroying at times I have some very happy memories of instructing and made some very good friends. Its still flying for a living after all.
The FI course is lengthy, expensive and hard work and the job is not suited to most Wannabes. So think hard.
WWW
b) You meet people who know people
c) Hours are hours.
d) 1,000hrs GA might not do much for an airliner recruiter but it opens the door to flying a King Air or C410 which opens the door to flying a Turboprop which then opens the door to a BoeBus.
e) Though soul destroying at times I have some very happy memories of instructing and made some very good friends. Its still flying for a living after all.
The FI course is lengthy, expensive and hard work and the job is not suited to most Wannabes. So think hard.
WWW
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 7
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From: LEEDS
Thank you!
Thank you to everyone for taking the time to post back - I'm pretty new to this forum 'Lark' so it's a real plus to come back and find so many replies! Overwhelming support for modular then... I have to say, I do think it makes sense. Teetering on the edge of 80K & looking over my shoulder, it's looking much more rosey back there! Not that the FTE route doesn't look appealing, it's the living under a black cloud paying it all off - not to mention paying it off while not flying & working for nothing. Thanks for the advice. I'll post back with what I end up doing (Jerk/not Jerk!).
As for the instructor debate, I think to teach you have to be passionate about teaching, or passionate about the subject (and to be really good, passionate about both). Whether or not 1000+ hours on a Cessna will have an impact on the recruiting airline I think depends on the Recruiter/Chief Pilot/HR dept & so on - win one minute, lose the next. Drumming up a little nepotism on the other hand - gold dust.... (Says me, the time-served old air-dog!!)
Thanks again all
As for the instructor debate, I think to teach you have to be passionate about teaching, or passionate about the subject (and to be really good, passionate about both). Whether or not 1000+ hours on a Cessna will have an impact on the recruiting airline I think depends on the Recruiter/Chief Pilot/HR dept & so on - win one minute, lose the next. Drumming up a little nepotism on the other hand - gold dust.... (Says me, the time-served old air-dog!!)
Thanks again all
Last edited by justnick; 15th September 2008 at 19:14.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: _
Just a quick one from a "been there done that" perspective; the time to start your training is now, when we're near the bottom of the cycle, if you wait until things have picked up again, and start then - you will have left it too late. You won't regret it, unlike the guys just coming out of training now who I reckon started when the current cycle was just reaching, or just past, its peak. They are now too late and in terms of being and keeping current will end up "out of phase" with the next boom (which will come, I know it's maybe hard to see that right now!)
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 272
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From: UK
the time to start your training is now, when we're near the bottom of the cycle, if you wait until things have picked up again, and start then - you will have left it too late.
There were people who went into training winter 2001 (post 9/11); graduated 18 months later - early 2003, and there werent any jobs then.
The best time to start training is when you see airline recruitment actually start happening again. Because every boom time has lasted atleast 3years+ if you start training when the boom starts, then 18month later you will be in the boom times, if not slap bang in the middle.
Bottom line is: start your training when airlines start recruiting. Ie look to ryanair or BA and wait for them to unfreeze recruitment.
ps. how do you know we are 'near' the worst of times. Everything points to the collapse of the aviation industry still to come. We are only at the outer edge of the storm at the moment.
