The Truth About Spanish IRs
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The Truth About Spanish IRs
I feel there is a need to discuss Spanish Instrument ratings on this forum and some very worrying, disturbing and unsafe practices going on in Spain.
Let's start with the facts:
Students go to Spain to undertake a course of training towards an instrument rating, which is normally a course of 55 hours for a Multi IR.
I was wondering what other people view this as, other than in my opinion a serious lack of safety and integrity standards....
Comments please...(I'm hoping this will create an interesting discussion)
Let's start with the facts:
- Spain is a full JAA member so you can have a Spanish IR added to your UK or any other JAA issued licence without a problem.
- Spain has better weather and is cheaper than the UK.
Students go to Spain to undertake a course of training towards an instrument rating, which is normally a course of 55 hours for a Multi IR.
- Unfortunately though some schools due to their lack of aircraft and instructors allow students to simply log flights, which they NEVER flew.
- When the aircraft and instructor situation has worsened - Instrument Ratings have also been granted along with all relevant paperwork and logbook entries faked without a flight test even taking place. I also am seriously concerned about the integrity of the individuals I know who took part in such illegal activities.
- Those who (say) took the Spanish IR often never flew a published approach, and examiners are known to draw approaches on a bit of scrap paper and ask the applicant to fly said approach. Some Instrument rated pilots who (say) they took the test, said they also never flew an approach in the test!
- When students who say (all we have is their word) that they have a Spanish IR and appropriate training, and go on to complete their UK CPL, which should not require any IR training many of my fellow students required circa 5 hours extra IR training! (Students went to different schools so must be some truth in it!)
- The MCC - is also meant to be a course to demonstrate multi crew skills. However, students from said schools have been known to fail (which you shouldn't be able to do) the MCC course as their basic instrument skills weren't up to scratch.
I was wondering what other people view this as, other than in my opinion a serious lack of safety and integrity standards....
Comments please...(I'm hoping this will create an interesting discussion)
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Hi Concerned,
I think this subject as been done many times.
For your interest I have many friends who have done there MEIR in spain and all of them are now flying commercially with UK operators.
None of them have had a problem getting employment nor keeping employed!
It's a case of how longs a piece of string really! I have been to many Schools in my training UK/Spain/USA and all of them have been relaxed in one thing or another. It's really impossible to say that " theres only one way to do this ".
In the past numerous people have tried to generate rumours of poor quality training abroad because they are involved with training in the UK. I can understand why they do this, all there custom is leaving them. Unfortunately, it will only get worse because of rising costs in the UK.
I think this subject as been done many times.
For your interest I have many friends who have done there MEIR in spain and all of them are now flying commercially with UK operators.
None of them have had a problem getting employment nor keeping employed!
It's a case of how longs a piece of string really! I have been to many Schools in my training UK/Spain/USA and all of them have been relaxed in one thing or another. It's really impossible to say that " theres only one way to do this ".
In the past numerous people have tried to generate rumours of poor quality training abroad because they are involved with training in the UK. I can understand why they do this, all there custom is leaving them. Unfortunately, it will only get worse because of rising costs in the UK.
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I have seen some crap on pprune but this takes the biscut, dodgey log books, flying approaches scribled on the back of cig packets and ghost flights. You the hell is running this school you are talking about, Aurther Daly or Delboy. Come on mate do you really think a school would get up to tricks like this. It would be shut in seconds, there is always some Dudley Doright student that would rat the place out. Do you think the Spainish are a pack of jokers and conmen.
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oh dear, oh dear. Now I have to be scared every time Iberia goes overhead? They must have cheated to get their rating. Everybody in Spain does of course. Always. Well, at least the weather is better and it is cheaper...
Is there an IR part in the CPL curriculum in the UK? I don't think so. - So obviously, the UK FIs and Examiners you are referring to did not quite understand the curriculum they should be following.
And several British pilots told you personally that they faked papers, tests etc? Why did they do that? So why discuss it here and not report them as you should? After all, you have proof beyond doubt?
When i did my initial IR with a well respected Irish airline, there was no NDB in the area, so the instructor drew a SID around a marine NDB. Without any doubt the best training I ever received. - If done well: no complaints.
Air Europa, Nostrum, Iberia: all a big scam...
Is there an IR part in the CPL curriculum in the UK? I don't think so. - So obviously, the UK FIs and Examiners you are referring to did not quite understand the curriculum they should be following.
And several British pilots told you personally that they faked papers, tests etc? Why did they do that? So why discuss it here and not report them as you should? After all, you have proof beyond doubt?
When i did my initial IR with a well respected Irish airline, there was no NDB in the area, so the instructor drew a SID around a marine NDB. Without any doubt the best training I ever received. - If done well: no complaints.
Air Europa, Nostrum, Iberia: all a big scam...
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ConcernedIR you've got some balls but I like it!
I've just walked in from a club and have had a few but i can't help but agree with you. Whether its the booze or whether its just having the right frame of mind to voice my opinions, who knows.
I've been training for my IR in the UK. In the past few weeks I've had the pleasure of back seating (whether on the FNPTII or A/C) 4 UK pilots attempting to revalidate their IR's (Revalidate is the key word). All 4 trained for their initial in Spain.
In a nutshell none of them could fly for toffee. Those that had the capacity to adjust just about winged it after several sorties in the sim, those that didn't, didn't!
I've often looked for reasons to justify training in the UK. I can conclude that its a matter of finances.
If all of the UK students rushing to Spain had a few more quid then they'd realise that quality UK training is priceless!
I await the tyrany!!!
I've just walked in from a club and have had a few but i can't help but agree with you. Whether its the booze or whether its just having the right frame of mind to voice my opinions, who knows.
I've been training for my IR in the UK. In the past few weeks I've had the pleasure of back seating (whether on the FNPTII or A/C) 4 UK pilots attempting to revalidate their IR's (Revalidate is the key word). All 4 trained for their initial in Spain.
In a nutshell none of them could fly for toffee. Those that had the capacity to adjust just about winged it after several sorties in the sim, those that didn't, didn't!
I've often looked for reasons to justify training in the UK. I can conclude that its a matter of finances.
If all of the UK students rushing to Spain had a few more quid then they'd realise that quality UK training is priceless!
I await the tyrany!!!
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The good old IR debate.
I have trained in both the UK and in Spain for the IR. I started in the UK and after several thousand pounds and several hours wasted flying daisy patterns on the sim I decided that I would head out to Spain with a friend of mine to finish the IR off. He is now employed with BMI and I am finishing off my CPL.
Upon arrival in Spain I was very suprised to see a formation of commercial airliners flying daisy patterns over the NDB. *coughs* Bull!!
There is 2 types of training that I have found regarding the IR.
The first being the British way of making you have to do everything in a list with 100% accuracy, which was developed by a guy in a suit sat behind a comfortable desk in an air conditioned room when all S**T hits the fan thousands of feet in the air.
Im not saying the British way is wrong, Im saying it might be a little out dated for todays aviation world. But that is my opinion.
The second way of teaching an IR is the Spainish way which tends to make alot more sense. They are teaching you to fly in an airline enviornment and the examiners all fly for the airlines. The instructors of the school fly the schools private jet on charters for very important and normally rich people. To the best of my knowledge I dont recall the instructors flying this aircraft into Heathrow with the Benson and Hedges approach chart.
Upon completion of my IR in Spain I decided to go to Oxford and complete the MCC course. For anyone who has undertaken their MCC with Oxford they will know that you get graded from 1 - 5 with 5 being very unsatisfactory. Alot of the Oxford students were getting level 3s (at least the ones I knew) and I achieved mainly level 1s.
It may have been that the instructor on the MCC just liked the color of my Benson and Hedges approach chart or it is that the guys who taught me in Spain really knew what they was doing. They work in the airline enviornment and they are not looking at keeping their company afloat by making trainee pilots fly pretty patterns while they drain their wallets.
I have trained in both the UK and in Spain for the IR. I started in the UK and after several thousand pounds and several hours wasted flying daisy patterns on the sim I decided that I would head out to Spain with a friend of mine to finish the IR off. He is now employed with BMI and I am finishing off my CPL.
Upon arrival in Spain I was very suprised to see a formation of commercial airliners flying daisy patterns over the NDB. *coughs* Bull!!
There is 2 types of training that I have found regarding the IR.
The first being the British way of making you have to do everything in a list with 100% accuracy, which was developed by a guy in a suit sat behind a comfortable desk in an air conditioned room when all S**T hits the fan thousands of feet in the air.
Im not saying the British way is wrong, Im saying it might be a little out dated for todays aviation world. But that is my opinion.
The second way of teaching an IR is the Spainish way which tends to make alot more sense. They are teaching you to fly in an airline enviornment and the examiners all fly for the airlines. The instructors of the school fly the schools private jet on charters for very important and normally rich people. To the best of my knowledge I dont recall the instructors flying this aircraft into Heathrow with the Benson and Hedges approach chart.
Upon completion of my IR in Spain I decided to go to Oxford and complete the MCC course. For anyone who has undertaken their MCC with Oxford they will know that you get graded from 1 - 5 with 5 being very unsatisfactory. Alot of the Oxford students were getting level 3s (at least the ones I knew) and I achieved mainly level 1s.
It may have been that the instructor on the MCC just liked the color of my Benson and Hedges approach chart or it is that the guys who taught me in Spain really knew what they was doing. They work in the airline enviornment and they are not looking at keeping their company afloat by making trainee pilots fly pretty patterns while they drain their wallets.
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The good old IR debate.
I could not help noticing that the originator of this thread posted a list under the heading of "facts" (all of two items, which are easily verifiable although he did not provide any references), and then another list of items he would like to talk about. At no point he suggests those are facts, or even allegations, or even hearsay--he simply wants to talk about it.
Which is fair enough. I assume the lad has never been to Spain and therefore might be a bit lacking in information as to what that country is really like. Furthermore, he might have suffered an attempt at being misled by some of the unscrupulous businesses back in the UK which have to resort to FUD tactics targeting the naïve in order to gain any customers, their own pass rates and quality of training being apparently not too good a selling point.
Because, one assumes, if anyone was to have even the weakest of evidence of any of the practises mentioned actually having taken place, one would waste no time in bringing it to the attention of the ECAC and the relevant national authorities. Not doing so would be highly irresponsible, and probably prosecutable, not to mention morally reproachable.
So the original poster has done well to come here and put those points forward, a proof (assuming he's been more or less truthful about his age) that at least some 24 year olds in the UK still have some critical thinking left. Well done indeed.
Now, because I do not wish to repeat myself too often, allow me to point you to my contributions in this recent thread (which as a newly registered member I realise the original poster might not have seen yet), wherein I express my view of what are some of the difficulties and frustrations associated with training abroad in different cultural environments.
If you allow me a quick aside, as for Spain itself, back in the 70s good weather and cheap prices were indeed pretty much all it had going for it. However, things have changed quite a bit in the last 35 years. Nowadays it's a modern country with development indicators at a par with other leading European nations, with some pretty impressive progressive legislation, and a liberal (very much so by northern European standards) but responsible society. Certainly the Wild West it's not, and one finds most aspects of daily life much more efficient than in the UK.
For the record, this comes from someone who feels equally at home (or equally foreign
) in both countries. I am fluent in one language of the United Kingdom and in two of the five official languages of Spain, have a good insight into both cultures and societies, have numerous contacts at different levels in the aviation industries of Spain and the UK, and have trained and flown in both places. I have also the luxury of not being bound by financial constraints and have nothing at stake when flying apart from my personal safety and that of others, aviation being just one of my pastimes.All that said, for those who are looking for the best country in which to obtain their licences, purely in terms of quality of training, and uncompromising excellence, from my experience I cannot recommend but one place: France
FWIW. I hope this helps some of the young lads out there who for whatever reason want to make aviation their career. Best of luck in your endeavours.
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There is certainly something going on in Spain regarding IR training and passes.
Here are some comments I have received/heard.
At our school in the UK we had a Spanish guy doing his IR and one day I asked him why he was doing his IR in the UK not Spain. He said: “because my father told me to do it here in the UK”. So I said why was that? He replied “because the Spanish IR is not recognised by the Spanish major airlines”, “Oh” I said, "so what does your father do to qualify him to say this?" “Because he is a Senior Captain with Iberia”, he replied.
Also a lady who converted her FAA IR in Spain and she told me that the school she was at that the standard of training was shocking, also that one British person was so poor with her IR capabilities that she was convinced this person would not pass, but to her surprise she did and first time too!
I also trained someone for an FI (R) who had done his IR in Spain and I have to say it was apparent that his IR skills were fairly lacking, one day he was asked to accompany someone on a flight to France on a day when filing IR would have been ideal, but he went VFR at 1500 feet! He said he had never been in Controlled Airspace. He also used to get backseat rides on IR training flights we were doing to get experience in Controlled Airspace.
I’m not saying every place is the same for IR training in Spain, but quite a few people I know are getting concerned about the standard of graduates from that part of the EU. Also does anyone know about the pass rate on hours flown out there? From what I gather everyone does their courses spot on the hours and passes first time.
Before I am accused of bias I would like to point out I did a FI (R) for a Frenchman who graduated from a school in Montpellier and I have to say his flying skills all round VFR & IR were excellent, his English wasn’t that good to start with but he quickly improved. I was hoping to get him to work as an Instructor for us, but he got an airline job in France just after he finished his course.
At the end of the day it may also be down to the individual as to what they do to progress after the IR and of course the standard of the school where they do it. From what I hear the examiners are attached to a school in some way and have a vested interest, unlike in the UK where the examiners are directly employed by the CAA. Personally I would like to see the CAA endorse the licenses they issue with comment as to which state the person did their IR in as they do with license conversions.
Here are some comments I have received/heard.
At our school in the UK we had a Spanish guy doing his IR and one day I asked him why he was doing his IR in the UK not Spain. He said: “because my father told me to do it here in the UK”. So I said why was that? He replied “because the Spanish IR is not recognised by the Spanish major airlines”, “Oh” I said, "so what does your father do to qualify him to say this?" “Because he is a Senior Captain with Iberia”, he replied.
Also a lady who converted her FAA IR in Spain and she told me that the school she was at that the standard of training was shocking, also that one British person was so poor with her IR capabilities that she was convinced this person would not pass, but to her surprise she did and first time too!
I also trained someone for an FI (R) who had done his IR in Spain and I have to say it was apparent that his IR skills were fairly lacking, one day he was asked to accompany someone on a flight to France on a day when filing IR would have been ideal, but he went VFR at 1500 feet! He said he had never been in Controlled Airspace. He also used to get backseat rides on IR training flights we were doing to get experience in Controlled Airspace.
I’m not saying every place is the same for IR training in Spain, but quite a few people I know are getting concerned about the standard of graduates from that part of the EU. Also does anyone know about the pass rate on hours flown out there? From what I gather everyone does their courses spot on the hours and passes first time.
Before I am accused of bias I would like to point out I did a FI (R) for a Frenchman who graduated from a school in Montpellier and I have to say his flying skills all round VFR & IR were excellent, his English wasn’t that good to start with but he quickly improved. I was hoping to get him to work as an Instructor for us, but he got an airline job in France just after he finished his course.
At the end of the day it may also be down to the individual as to what they do to progress after the IR and of course the standard of the school where they do it. From what I hear the examiners are attached to a school in some way and have a vested interest, unlike in the UK where the examiners are directly employed by the CAA. Personally I would like to see the CAA endorse the licenses they issue with comment as to which state the person did their IR in as they do with license conversions.
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Is there an IR part in the CPL curriculum in the UK?
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This thread makes for no debate unless the schools name(s) is mentioned, I think it would be more beneficial to find out the good the bad and the ugly, but instead a whole country is being tarred with the same brush.
Which school(s) is it that you have heard of this going on?
FTE (Jerez) and Aerodynamics (Malaga), certainly would not allow these practices to go on.
- Unfortunately though some schools due to their lack of aircraft and instructors allow students to simply log flights, which they NEVER flew.
- When the aircraft and instructor situation has worsened - Instrument Ratings have also been granted along with all relevant paperwork and logbook entries faked without a flight test even taking place. I also am seriously concerned about the integrity of the individuals I know who took part in such illegal activities.
- Those who (say) took the Spanish IR often never flew a published approach, and examiners are known to draw approaches on a bit of scrap paper and ask the applicant to fly said approach. Some Instrument rated pilots who (say) they took the test, said they also never flew an approach in the test!
FTE (Jerez) and Aerodynamics (Malaga), certainly would not allow these practices to go on.
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When I was at ADM - there was absolutely none of that going on.
I flew all of the prescribed hours. Nothing was faked. And I didn't hear anyone when I was there saying there were dodgy dealings going on.
The test was done in a real plane, on an extremely busy Summer morning in AGP.
The instructors in the plane were extremely strict - and they took everything seriously.
I was there for 4 weeks, and there were at least 3 people who failed, one of them twice.
I don't know what schools all of that nonsense is meant to take place in. But it didn't in ADM, and from what I've heard, Aerofan is sound too.
As it is ADM and Aerofan who most people from the UK go to, I am a little unsure as to where these stories come from.
I flew all of the prescribed hours. Nothing was faked. And I didn't hear anyone when I was there saying there were dodgy dealings going on.
The test was done in a real plane, on an extremely busy Summer morning in AGP.
The instructors in the plane were extremely strict - and they took everything seriously.
I was there for 4 weeks, and there were at least 3 people who failed, one of them twice.
I don't know what schools all of that nonsense is meant to take place in. But it didn't in ADM, and from what I've heard, Aerofan is sound too.
As it is ADM and Aerofan who most people from the UK go to, I am a little unsure as to where these stories come from.
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Unfortunately, I know of the first three taking place - they took place at one of the schools mentioned above - Sorry Doctor Doom but it's happening. 
Regarding the MCC, and the CPL Instrument test segment which is required, that's largely based on student ability, however, I wouldn't disagree at the same time.
Regarding the MCC, and the CPL Instrument test segment which is required, that's largely based on student ability, however, I wouldn't disagree at the same time.
Last edited by BigGrecian; 16th Jun 2008 at 00:17. Reason: CPL test content
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So in other words your expecting me to name those pilots invovled on a public forum - I don't think so. I don't fancy myself in court due to liable laws. That's up to their integrity to come forward.
The school involved has been mentioned above though.
If you want any more proof, go to a school which trains students who did a Spanish IR before their CPL.
The school involved has been mentioned above though.
If you want any more proof, go to a school which trains students who did a Spanish IR before their CPL.
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2 guys who trained in Spain I know off 1 just started on 737 2 weeks ago the other passed his LST on a320 friday just gone. Maybe you should contact there new employers (both UK based) and express your concerns as there training captains didnt spot any IR faults!
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ConcernedIR all you do is just spit into our faces, people, who has choosed wrong parents and with very restricted financial possibilities for flight training/ IR training in UK.
I NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! believe, that it is truth, that somebody has ever got in any JAA state IR rating without doing skill test, so please just stop with it!!!!
I NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! believe, that it is truth, that somebody has ever got in any JAA state IR rating without doing skill test, so please just stop with it!!!!
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Sorry acuba 290, I'm with ConcernedIR.
I know of a few people who never took an IR test and a couple more who logged training they didn't complete.
NearlyThere, I don't disagree that there are many people with Spanish IRs flying around, however, I would agree with the general statement regarding those with such an IR.....
I know of a few people who never took an IR test and a couple more who logged training they didn't complete.
NearlyThere, I don't disagree that there are many people with Spanish IRs flying around, however, I would agree with the general statement regarding those with such an IR.....
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It's amazing what people confess to after a couple of drinks.
And I couldn't care less where people spent their money. I work for neither a UK flight organisation, nor any UK airfield, nor the taxman (Think that covers who could make money out of flying in the UK.) And for what it's worth I did my IR abroad.
What I do care about is who is flying my family around, especially when I assume they have the relevant skills and have passed the relevant tests.
I applaud ConcernedIRs effort to start this discussion, all I'm doing is saying that I know that at least a few of his points are true...So let us discuss rather than discount.
And I couldn't care less where people spent their money. I work for neither a UK flight organisation, nor any UK airfield, nor the taxman (Think that covers who could make money out of flying in the UK.) And for what it's worth I did my IR abroad.
What I do care about is who is flying my family around, especially when I assume they have the relevant skills and have passed the relevant tests.
I applaud ConcernedIRs effort to start this discussion, all I'm doing is saying that I know that at least a few of his points are true...So let us discuss rather than discount.
Last edited by BigGrecian; 12th Jul 2008 at 22:39. Reason: Suggest you read the Bonus aviation thread, regarding Spanish IRs.
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never heard so much crap in all my life!!. i see the general pattern here is " i heard this from someone" or" i did my IR i the UK but the guys who failed did theirs in spain!!".
There is one thing that the UK does have that Spain doesnt though,.......... Stuffy ****holes who look down thier nose at guys who have got the same licence cheaper in another country!!!
I mean, look at all those spanish aircraft dropping out of the sky due to unskilled pilots.
There is one thing that the UK does have that Spain doesnt though,.......... Stuffy ****holes who look down thier nose at guys who have got the same licence cheaper in another country!!!
I mean, look at all those spanish aircraft dropping out of the sky due to unskilled pilots.