Whats the £100 for ?
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I'm astounded; there is no acceptable argument in favour of such corrupt behaviour!
There are three words that come to mind…
Unscrupulous, Unscrupulous, Unscrupulous!!!!
….Surly you have the common sense not to pay this sum money..?
There are three words that come to mind…
Unscrupulous, Unscrupulous, Unscrupulous!!!!
….Surly you have the common sense not to pay this sum money..?
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Sod it, lets get this out in the open.
Colin Dobney, head of training at Stapleford charges 100 pounds to do 170s, meaning that he gets an extra 200 quid off every student who does their CPL and IR there.
The money goes straight to him, paid via cheque or cash. It is not paid through the flying school.
If you think how many students pass throught SFC each year, thats a decent income for the man.
All I speak is the truth, nothing more.
Colin Dobney, head of training at Stapleford charges 100 pounds to do 170s, meaning that he gets an extra 200 quid off every student who does their CPL and IR there.
The money goes straight to him, paid via cheque or cash. It is not paid through the flying school.
If you think how many students pass throught SFC each year, thats a decent income for the man.
All I speak is the truth, nothing more.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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I've been charged for 3 170a tests!! That's £300!! And that's just half the story. Every time you fail (yes you can fail the test very easily by the way) a 170a test, they usually recommend a few hours of training to get you up to standard. Having completed nearly a further 8 hours, this has cost me just over a £1,500 on top of my cpl!!!
Commercial flight training is nothing if not Commercial. I had some very bad experiences when i went through the system. It stinks. A lot of schools/Examiners/CFI's etc plead poverty all the time but i recall all those flying school "shacks" on airfields with new Porsches/BMW's parked outside.....
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I too have recently been through this FTO and was asked to pay £200 for 2 170A's; in cash. My friend also had to pay twice, and when he asked for a reciept they refused.
I also ended up paying £1500 for hours I am sure I didn't need. Maybe I was a bit naive, but I thought that this was standard practice.
YS
I also ended up paying £1500 for hours I am sure I didn't need. Maybe I was a bit naive, but I thought that this was standard practice.
YS
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I'm sorry but I'm absolutely shocked! If true, this is nothing but extaution. This bloke could potentially earn over £10k a year, easily. Tax free. On the back of his students who are probably racked up to the eyeballs in debt.
I'd be on the phone to the powers that be as I left their jumped up portacabin for the last time.
EK
I'd be on the phone to the powers that be as I left their jumped up portacabin for the last time.
EK
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He is going to love this being aired on pprune.
Tax man looking at the last 7 years of accounts working out how many tests he has done then charging 40% plus interest.
Better watch out for grumpy examiners in Stapleford. And a huge hike in the fee as now he will have to put it through the books tax and vat will be added.
Tax man looking at the last 7 years of accounts working out how many tests he has done then charging 40% plus interest.
Better watch out for grumpy examiners in Stapleford. And a huge hike in the fee as now he will have to put it through the books tax and vat will be added.
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Cash isn't illegal
So why can't the examiner also be registered as self employed, and instead of charging £150 through the school which is taxed at a certain rate, charge you £100 cash/cheque that doesn't go through the school's books? How would you know that he/she doesn't pay their taxes. Is it your business? Also a way of having these experienced pilots working at a school for reletively low pay.
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Cash isn't illegal but the refusal to give a reciept is very illegal.
If it is a hidden cost which you have to pay there are other issues.
Personally the requirment of a flight test outside the CPL course is a huge extorsion exercise.
If it is a hidden cost which you have to pay there are other issues.
Personally the requirment of a flight test outside the CPL course is a huge extorsion exercise.
Treeshaver. Respect! Someone with the b*lls to come out and say it how it is.
To the other guys who seem to have been conned, please just ring HMRC tomorrow morning and inform them of the situation. (Your costs should all be through the school and kept legitimate. No receipt? You kidding? Are we to let this industry run to bribery and corruption, more than it already is? )
It's easy enough for HMRC to check records of claimed income against tests carried out. I'm sure the CAA or the FTO for that matter, will retain the history of the 170A's.
This industry is expensive enough as it is without people like him fleecing people.
I'd also ask around and find out how many more people did extra hours before getting signed off. If you're put forward for the 170A then it's because the person training you thinks you are capable of passing. Not capable of passing in an extra 5-10 hours!!!
To the other guys who seem to have been conned, please just ring HMRC tomorrow morning and inform them of the situation. (Your costs should all be through the school and kept legitimate. No receipt? You kidding? Are we to let this industry run to bribery and corruption, more than it already is? )
It's easy enough for HMRC to check records of claimed income against tests carried out. I'm sure the CAA or the FTO for that matter, will retain the history of the 170A's.
This industry is expensive enough as it is without people like him fleecing people.
I'd also ask around and find out how many more people did extra hours before getting signed off. If you're put forward for the 170A then it's because the person training you thinks you are capable of passing. Not capable of passing in an extra 5-10 hours!!!
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anotheradam, your attempt to justify this behaviour is outrageous. As mentioned earlier, refusal to issue a reciept is illegal.
The arguement that we will all pay more now is wrong too. It is not a case of the cost of a 170A now going up to cover the tax man. At reputable schools, it is included in the price and they happily advertise that.
I would guess that there is no mention of the requirent of a brown envelope with £100 in it just to complete the course in this particular FTO's glossy brochure. And, as the students are all (by definition) at the end of their course, they have no option but to pay.
If I'm being asked to stump up a load of cash, with no recipt, for somthing that I thought was included in the price, then yes. It bloody well is.
The 'extra hours' thing is also an age old con. This IS done through the books though, so there's nowt you can do.
EK
The arguement that we will all pay more now is wrong too. It is not a case of the cost of a 170A now going up to cover the tax man. At reputable schools, it is included in the price and they happily advertise that.
I would guess that there is no mention of the requirent of a brown envelope with £100 in it just to complete the course in this particular FTO's glossy brochure. And, as the students are all (by definition) at the end of their course, they have no option but to pay.
Is it your business?
The 'extra hours' thing is also an age old con. This IS done through the books though, so there's nowt you can do.
EK
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The CAA dictate that a 170a is required. For CPL the person signing the 170a does not need to have flown with you but they must for IR. I think it is designed to prevent you wasting the £729 test fee (plus aircraft hire) if you are not up to standard. For the poster that has failed the 170a three times so far that 170a signatory (by not signing it) has saved you over £2000 in test fees alone!!!
Maybe you didn't think of it that way
You will all end up paying for the highly experienced instructional staff somehow, either directly or through higher hourly rates etc.
PS EK4457 see page 10 of the brochure............it's there, it dosen't mention cash though to be fair
Maybe you didn't think of it that way
You will all end up paying for the highly experienced instructional staff somehow, either directly or through higher hourly rates etc.
PS EK4457 see page 10 of the brochure............it's there, it dosen't mention cash though to be fair
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For the poster that has failed the 170a three times so far that 170a signatory (by not signing it) has saved you over £2000 in test fees alone!!!
Besides, there is no need, as you point out yourself, for the signatory to actually fly with the student for the CPL. You have just agreed that the flight and the payment are unjustified. Ooops!
You will all end up paying for the highly experienced instructional staff somehow, either directly or through higher hourly rates etc.
PS EK4457 see page 10 of the brochure............it's there, it dosen't mention cash though to be fair
EK
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As usual , never let the truth get in the way of a good story!!!. 170A fees are charged within some companys because the examiner rather than the school pay out for the priviledge to test for Class rating,IR renewal, 170a etc etc. There is a requirement that candidates are flown with on IR and flight is optional on CPL. Within our school we pride ourselves on the high pass rates & we achieve that but by VERY carefully checking standard of candidate prior to test which is why we check both CPL & IR. As somebody has already mentioned in this thread the cost of sitting with a CAA examiner is £729.00p, what you are paying for is a very experienced examiner who has not been involved with your training to put you under test conditions and see how you perform. It is better to fail at this point rather than have to log a CAA flight test fail in your logbook.
With regards to 'cash' payments, the requirement is for cheque or cash & not credit cards purely because as individuals we do not have machines to take cards. The comments that we refuse receipts are totally unfounded although I dont think that particular remark was aimed at this establishment.
These and all other examiner & test fees are clearly stated in our schools literature and I'm sure most other reputable organisations are the same.
With regards to 'cash' payments, the requirement is for cheque or cash & not credit cards purely because as individuals we do not have machines to take cards. The comments that we refuse receipts are totally unfounded although I dont think that particular remark was aimed at this establishment.
These and all other examiner & test fees are clearly stated in our schools literature and I'm sure most other reputable organisations are the same.
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Flying Lion, I completely agree that a school should have very high standards. However, you fail to justify how a mock test with an instructor involves an EXTRA charge of £100. There is a lot of rhetoric about the high pass rate of your school, but there is no explination as to why there is an extra charge. You can acheive the same standards without the charge.
No, they may well be an examiner, but they are there as an instructor. The instruction cost is included in the hourly rate. When they are using the privilage of their examiner stauts (ie examining) then they get their extra monies in the correct manner. I have yet to hand over cash to any of my CAA examiners.
Anyway, since when was the instruction rate dependent upon their experience? News to me.
What made me laugh was the explaination of why they only accept cash! We know why! The idea that a student could pay by card with the school and then the school get charged by the examiner (like fuel / landing fees / egineering costs etc) is completely absurd! That would be on the books....
I'd be interested to know what is factually incorrect in this thread?
EK
what you are paying for is a very experienced examiner
Anyway, since when was the instruction rate dependent upon their experience? News to me.
What made me laugh was the explaination of why they only accept cash! We know why! The idea that a student could pay by card with the school and then the school get charged by the examiner (like fuel / landing fees / egineering costs etc) is completely absurd! That would be on the books....
As usual , never let the truth get in the way of a good story!!!
EK
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Having read all this thread and also read the brochure. I can confrim that ther is a charge of £100.00 for 170A's. This is a offical charge, so why would you pay the examiner directly? Sorry but this is not right, you should be invoiced, end of.
For an examiner/instructor to ask for payment in this way, with no reciept (if true) is wrong. If I was said person, I would be very worried about HMRC getting hold of this.
If I was a candiate I would ley HMRC and also the CAA know as I am sure both parties would be want to know.
Wonder if the person concerned kept records, paid Tax and VAT.
For an examiner/instructor to ask for payment in this way, with no reciept (if true) is wrong. If I was said person, I would be very worried about HMRC getting hold of this.
If I was a candiate I would ley HMRC and also the CAA know as I am sure both parties would be want to know.
Wonder if the person concerned kept records, paid Tax and VAT.
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I am not a grass, however for those who are, the following info was taken from https://www.taxevasionhotline.co.uk/
HM Revenue & Customs Tax Evasion Hotline
HMRC is committed to targeting tax evasion. We know some people don't pay their fair share of tax, which is unfair for the rest of us. Now you can help us do something about it.
The Tax Evasion hotline deals with income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, VAT and National Insurance.
The Hotline can take your call on 0800 788 887 (Lines are open Monday to Friday 8am to 8pm, Saturday and Sunday 8am to 4pm), or you can submit a report here.
No information - however trivial it may seem -is too small. It could be the key to stopping fraudulent or criminal activity.
Time for someone to start sweating perhaps!
HM Revenue & Customs Tax Evasion Hotline
HMRC is committed to targeting tax evasion. We know some people don't pay their fair share of tax, which is unfair for the rest of us. Now you can help us do something about it.
The Tax Evasion hotline deals with income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, VAT and National Insurance.
The Hotline can take your call on 0800 788 887 (Lines are open Monday to Friday 8am to 8pm, Saturday and Sunday 8am to 4pm), or you can submit a report here.
No information - however trivial it may seem -is too small. It could be the key to stopping fraudulent or criminal activity.
Time for someone to start sweating perhaps!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
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I too have recently been through this FTO and was asked to pay £200 for 2 170A's; in cash. My friend also had to pay twice, and when he asked for a reciept they refused.
I now have a copy of the brochure and on P10 it does state the charges for the various test fee's, so it is a legitimate fee even if other places don't charge it but it does seem it is collected in an unconventional way.
I just don't see why these fees cannot be paid out of your flying account with the club direct to the examiner rather than this potential loophole of cash/cheque only direct to them with no receipt, or why not just add it on to the cost of the course price so there are no grey areas when it come to paying it ?..
I still don't get where this extra charge is coming from though, you are paying dual rate for the a/c which is £59/hr more for the Arrow than the solo rates so surely this is where the instructor's part of the flight fee comes from, so why is another £100 stuck on top ?. As EK4457 said, they are not actually flying with you as an examiner, just as an instructor who happens also to be an examiner so their fee should be covered by the extra cost of the hire rate and I cannot see how it costs £100 for a form to be filled out.
This argument about having to pay alot of money to get into the position just doesn't hold either. Your line training/sim instructors in the commercial world I'm sure don't take money off you like this, as they are re-imbursed by the company, yet it has also cost them alot of money to get into that position so why should a training organisation be any different ?.
It was never my intention on starting this thread for the club/persons to be named/shamed, merely to find out if this was a legitimate charge and if other schools were doing the same, but maybe this particular club might want to re-evaluate the way in which this fee is collected if they are going to charge for it.
