Age Policies
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Age Policies
dear ppruners,
does anyone know whether age discrimination at airline interviews actually exists?
is there any truth in the idea that over 40s perform less well than, say, under 30s in the cockpit or is that just self-fulfilling prophesies because over 40s don't bother trying?
just curious thats all,
lissy
does anyone know whether age discrimination at airline interviews actually exists?
is there any truth in the idea that over 40s perform less well than, say, under 30s in the cockpit or is that just self-fulfilling prophesies because over 40s don't bother trying?
just curious thats all,
lissy
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It has been demonstrated that the older one is, the harder it is to learn new skills. There is overwhelming evidence of successful older candidates who pass interviews and fly commercially, largely as all candidates, regardless of age, are selected on ability and aptitude.
It may be the case that older candidates who fail to succeed probably drop out at an earlier stage than airline interview - for example when they take huge numbers of extra hours to attain the same skill level at CPL stage, or taking multiple attempts to pass ATPL theory.
Older people do find it harder, but the less able are less likey to reach airline interviews in the first place.
It may be the case that older candidates who fail to succeed probably drop out at an earlier stage than airline interview - for example when they take huge numbers of extra hours to attain the same skill level at CPL stage, or taking multiple attempts to pass ATPL theory.
Older people do find it harder, but the less able are less likey to reach airline interviews in the first place.
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All very interesting but does discrimination exist, the answer is probably!
I suppose the question is whether anyone is disadvantaged by virtue of their age in relation to any recruitment factor. I would suggest that 'flying hours' indirectly discriminates against younger pilots and is potentially unlawful. I am sure there will be a challenge but until there is, the industry will continue with its 'criteria'.
Any other views?
I suppose the question is whether anyone is disadvantaged by virtue of their age in relation to any recruitment factor. I would suggest that 'flying hours' indirectly discriminates against younger pilots and is potentially unlawful. I am sure there will be a challenge but until there is, the industry will continue with its 'criteria'.
Any other views?
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The decline in learning and performance that Reheat speaks of is real. It is most likely due to the effects of the ageing process. It is not age that is discriminated against, it is poor performance. The fact that it may be slightly more common in older wannabes can make it seem like it is age based discrimination, but the number of successful older wannabes puts the lie to that. There are always exceptional older wannabes who will get through training with good scores and first time passes even as there are exceptionally poor younger ones.
If you don't believe Reheat's statement that it is harder for older people to learn new skills, go buy your grandmother a cell phone or PDA. My 75 year old landlord can't even use a computer mouse. I realize these examples are a bit older than the 30s and 40s lissy asks about, but I bring them up to illustrate the effects of aging, not to show precisely in which decade one crosses the line of decline.
I think there probably is some age discrimination out there for low hour newbies, both against the very young and the 35 plus low hour pilots, but HR people are really good at keeping it under the radar, so you'll probably never be able to build a winnable case if it happens to you.
If you don't believe Reheat's statement that it is harder for older people to learn new skills, go buy your grandmother a cell phone or PDA. My 75 year old landlord can't even use a computer mouse. I realize these examples are a bit older than the 30s and 40s lissy asks about, but I bring them up to illustrate the effects of aging, not to show precisely in which decade one crosses the line of decline.
I think there probably is some age discrimination out there for low hour newbies, both against the very young and the 35 plus low hour pilots, but HR people are really good at keeping it under the radar, so you'll probably never be able to build a winnable case if it happens to you.
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HR people are really good at keeping it under the radar, so you'll probably never be able to build a winnable case if it happens to you.
There is plenty of evidence to show that older candidates are a far better prospect as an employee , even in aviation. The reality of the situation is that if the CAA says you are good enough, the airlines may struggle to say otherwise and any selection process that appears to discriminate on age is on a sticky wicket! Time will tell how things will pan out but I am sure that it is only a case of time before the airlines get another battering in the courts and the reality is that they usually lose!
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The problem with age discrimination, particularly in this industry - and speaking as one who has concerns about their own employment prospects when I finish training - is that no airline worth it's salt is going to send you a "thanks, but no thanks" letter that says "....because you're too old". There is a myriad of other excuses out there that would be perfectly reasonable reasons to hire a younger candidate such as they performed better on the sim check, they fit our personality profile better etc etc.
The secondary part to this, is that this is SUCH a small industry that if A.Person was start a legal challenge on the basis of age discrimination, it would effectively put paid to any chance of a job elsewhere. So a challenge is only likely to come either when someone gives up entirely (in which case the defence will merely "prove" you weren't good enough and it's just sour grapes) or when someone has secured a job with another airline, but in this case, why would you bother?
All the older candidates out there can hope is that more and more recruiters make their hiring decisions based on best for the job and that subsequent to that, we oldies can prove ourselves at least competitive with the younger.
The secondary part to this, is that this is SUCH a small industry that if A.Person was start a legal challenge on the basis of age discrimination, it would effectively put paid to any chance of a job elsewhere. So a challenge is only likely to come either when someone gives up entirely (in which case the defence will merely "prove" you weren't good enough and it's just sour grapes) or when someone has secured a job with another airline, but in this case, why would you bother?
All the older candidates out there can hope is that more and more recruiters make their hiring decisions based on best for the job and that subsequent to that, we oldies can prove ourselves at least competitive with the younger.
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institutionalised agesim
thanks for the replies folks...
i'm pretty certain that there is a huge problem with age discrimination in the industry. and the biggest trouble is, it is not easy for even the 'nicest' of recruiting teams to appreciate just how discriminatory they are being; they are simply 'educated' into their discriminatory attitude because we live in an ageist society and their employers do nothing to challenge it. if we didn't have this ageism, the cosmetics industry would be finished!
the other problem, as i see it, is that operators prefer younger pilots because they probably come with less 'baggage' (opinions basically) than older ones. i mean, why recruit an opinionated pilot if you can recruit a more malleable one?
there are numerous threads on pprune containing assertations about how the brain atrophies with age, but the fact is that no conclusive scientific evidence exists anywhere on the matter. the furthest the Caa appear to want to go is to say that the present age limits are going to stay the same in light of age discriminaton legislation.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/Age%20D...egislation.pdf
as Greg points out above, if a 45 year old holds a cpl/ir, then that should be good enough for the operator, period. otherwise, what is the point of taking the cpl/ir tests? (or a 55 year old, or a 25 year old for that matter)
in much the same way that the Metropolitan Police being accused of institutional racism didn't make every officer a racist, the aviation industry has an inbuilt ageism that even the most open minded of recruiters are blindly going along with but it doesn't make them 'nasty' people, just people with a blind spot.
if one can be a pilot of, say, 50 years and still convert a 757 rating to an a320, as many do in the UK right now, then surely his/her brain is no less capable than the newbie/wannabee of 50 years attempting to get into the industry for the first time. if you agree wth that logic, then you have to concede that denying the 50 yr old wannabee a chance at interview IS ageist, unfair and illegal...not to mention a huge waste of talent.
i'm pretty certain that there is a huge problem with age discrimination in the industry. and the biggest trouble is, it is not easy for even the 'nicest' of recruiting teams to appreciate just how discriminatory they are being; they are simply 'educated' into their discriminatory attitude because we live in an ageist society and their employers do nothing to challenge it. if we didn't have this ageism, the cosmetics industry would be finished!
the other problem, as i see it, is that operators prefer younger pilots because they probably come with less 'baggage' (opinions basically) than older ones. i mean, why recruit an opinionated pilot if you can recruit a more malleable one?
there are numerous threads on pprune containing assertations about how the brain atrophies with age, but the fact is that no conclusive scientific evidence exists anywhere on the matter. the furthest the Caa appear to want to go is to say that the present age limits are going to stay the same in light of age discriminaton legislation.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/Age%20D...egislation.pdf
as Greg points out above, if a 45 year old holds a cpl/ir, then that should be good enough for the operator, period. otherwise, what is the point of taking the cpl/ir tests? (or a 55 year old, or a 25 year old for that matter)
in much the same way that the Metropolitan Police being accused of institutional racism didn't make every officer a racist, the aviation industry has an inbuilt ageism that even the most open minded of recruiters are blindly going along with but it doesn't make them 'nasty' people, just people with a blind spot.
if one can be a pilot of, say, 50 years and still convert a 757 rating to an a320, as many do in the UK right now, then surely his/her brain is no less capable than the newbie/wannabee of 50 years attempting to get into the industry for the first time. if you agree wth that logic, then you have to concede that denying the 50 yr old wannabee a chance at interview IS ageist, unfair and illegal...not to mention a huge waste of talent.
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Lissy, you make some good very points in your Post. I guess the best way to minimise age issues is to discretely network in the industry. I have been quite surprised at the help I have been given. I guess they want pilots with a bit of character who will fit in with the existing culture.
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"the furthest the Caa appear to want to go is to say that the present age limits are going to stay the same in light of age discriminaton legislation."
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/Age%20D...egislation.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/Age%20D...egislation.pdf
A super reference but the CAA's interpretation may be flawed. Take for example Surgeon's who often practice into their 80s! I was at a HR conference when a leading employment lawyer spoke about these various issues and said that many organisations have clearly over-stepped the mark.
I specifically asked him about the CAA stance. He responded by saying that he felt that the CAA argument would not stand-up in a legal challenge.
BUT...
As Clanger 32 points out, who on earth is going to challenge them? I am sure it will happen eventually and until then we will have to wait and see
All makes for an interesting Post though!
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Yes some good points above. The bit about the fifty year old converting types, being akin to a fifty year old wannabee does not stand up however. An airline pilot with 15000 hours will most likely just find a type conversion to be a pain in the behind more than anything else. His fifty year old mate, fresh out of training may have an entirely different experience. Never mind the line training etc etc. I realise that there are exceptions though.
