Advice before i blow my life savings, pls
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Whatever you choose to do, think carefully before you do it. Flying training is very expensive and there are lots of traps along the way.
Having had your trial lesson, I suggest the next thing you should do is to get a Class 1 medical. This costs more than a GAPAN test, but if you cannot pass the medical then the game is over. So pass this one first.
Then take the GAPAN test. If this indicates that you are a hopeless case then it is probably better to select a different career path. But if it shows that you are not "a born pilot" this doesn't mean that you cannot become a good pilot. It simply means that the training will be harder and more expensive.
The next logical step is to do your PPL. By the time you complete this you will be in a far better position to decide whether or not to start spending the big money. If you decide not to go ahead with ATPL training you can still fly for fun, so your money will not have been wasted.
If you decide to go ahead with the ATPL then remember to,
Visit lots of schools before selecting one.
Talk to lots of students when visiting the schools.
Pay as little as possible (preferably nothing) up front.
Expect everything to cost more than you think it will.
Put maximum effort into every aspect of your training.
The easiest way to succeed in ATPL training is to work your arse off and pass everything first time. The hardest and most expensive way is to put in minimal effort and just go with the flow.
Having had your trial lesson, I suggest the next thing you should do is to get a Class 1 medical. This costs more than a GAPAN test, but if you cannot pass the medical then the game is over. So pass this one first.
Then take the GAPAN test. If this indicates that you are a hopeless case then it is probably better to select a different career path. But if it shows that you are not "a born pilot" this doesn't mean that you cannot become a good pilot. It simply means that the training will be harder and more expensive.
The next logical step is to do your PPL. By the time you complete this you will be in a far better position to decide whether or not to start spending the big money. If you decide not to go ahead with ATPL training you can still fly for fun, so your money will not have been wasted.
If you decide to go ahead with the ATPL then remember to,
Visit lots of schools before selecting one.
Talk to lots of students when visiting the schools.
Pay as little as possible (preferably nothing) up front.
Expect everything to cost more than you think it will.
Put maximum effort into every aspect of your training.
The easiest way to succeed in ATPL training is to work your arse off and pass everything first time. The hardest and most expensive way is to put in minimal effort and just go with the flow.
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Hi I flew with Sherburn and occasionally at Yorkshire Aeroplane Club before Multiflight took it over. With a class one medical and a PPL you have some options. DO not underestimate the ground school. £30k is on the low side these days and there are some time limits involved too. Go to the airport/airfields and meet some of those doing ar having just done the ATPL. Remember anyone can learn to fly or drive or anything else. Passion and commitment are crucial. If you are not obsessive at least at first you will fall by the wayside. When you finish you will work hard but you should be adequately rewarded, Research deeper than on here and all the very best for the future. GAPAN is a good system but is no guarantee of anything. The most important things are to develop a 3D brain, acquire some skills and to study....
Don't pay for an aptitude test. Do the Class One medical and start on the PPL course at weekends and evenings this summer.
If you pass the PPL course in say less than 55hrs total time then you can be confident that you'll cope with the CPL and IR flight training. The exams are just hard work - its not rocket science but there is a broad range of info to cram in you head but with a bit of slog and a good school even quite thick people pass the ATPL exams.
The PPL will sort you out. You may well find that although its enjoyable its not quite as much fun as you thought and the novelty can wear off fairly quickly. The majority of PPL holder let their licenses lapse within 5 years of getting them and thats the dirty little secret the schools don't talk about. The instructor probably says that to every trial lesson person he flies with - I did when I was a PPL flying instructor even if they had the aptitude of Mr McGoo. Life is tough on £10 per flying hour at the bottom of the pilot food chain..
Good luck, but keep the day job - there's a massive recession coming remember.
WWW
If you pass the PPL course in say less than 55hrs total time then you can be confident that you'll cope with the CPL and IR flight training. The exams are just hard work - its not rocket science but there is a broad range of info to cram in you head but with a bit of slog and a good school even quite thick people pass the ATPL exams.
The PPL will sort you out. You may well find that although its enjoyable its not quite as much fun as you thought and the novelty can wear off fairly quickly. The majority of PPL holder let their licenses lapse within 5 years of getting them and thats the dirty little secret the schools don't talk about. The instructor probably says that to every trial lesson person he flies with - I did when I was a PPL flying instructor even if they had the aptitude of Mr McGoo. Life is tough on £10 per flying hour at the bottom of the pilot food chain..
Good luck, but keep the day job - there's a massive recession coming remember.
WWW
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A different opinion
Leeds,
You wanted opinions, here's one that won't be popular but its based my own experiences and outlook.
I've been at this for 30 years and have 18,000+ hours in diverse areas of the industry. Its been Airline mostly but I've done bush flying (3 years), helicopters (1250 hrs), delivery, cargo (B744) and have even owned my own Cessna 170B. I'm typed on 6 airplanes including the B744 and Airbus A320 with a check airman letter.
Bottom line is while I love flying, it is after-all all I have ever done, I hate the industry, what it has become and where it is headed. Yes, I've had some great times but if I had all to do over again I would do something else. The industry, for pilots at least, peaked about 20 years ago and has gotten worse every year since. I shudder to think what my next 10 years will bring. Unfortunately I have too much invested in this career and I am too far along in age and obligations now to do anything about it.
When I think of how much time and effort I put into what I've been doing the last 30 years and look at the current returns and outlook, I am bitterly disappointed. Doing what what one enjoys or loves doing is a luxury that comes AFTER earning what it takes to take care of yourself and your family in a way that makes one satisfied. Aviation is a field with a diminished capacity to do that.
In the end you will end up doing what you believe is best in your given circumstances. You should be aware however that as well as the initial high investment and expenses you will be faced with the difficulty of getting any job in the first couple of years and a decent paying one for a few years after that. Be also aware that the "big" payoff toward the end of your career, a wide-body command or a secure well paying position affording you a comfortable QOL, may not be there and is dependent on so many things outside your control. One has medicals, check rides, the price of oil, market forces and industry pressures that have the potential to end careers or close companies forcing the pilot to start at the bottom over and over again.
Now, before I get all the flaming/advice that I should just quit and move onto to something else that I enjoy doing let me reiterate something I said before. I am not in a position to do that and that is another trap of an aviation career. It takes such a personal investment of money, time and effort that one can get to a position where one either cannot get out or it is incredibly difficult to do so. IN MY OWN CASE, it has not been worth it. The enjoyment of flying is far outweighed by the bureaucracy of flying, the concerns of potential career ending events, the abuse I and my colleagues suffer at the hands of airline management, the idiocy and shameful disregard of serious issues by regulatory authorities and the almost universally accepted poor outlook for the industry as a whole.
Again, this my opinion NOT my advice. My advice is to weigh the costs and benefits of what you are contemplating considering ALL the facts and keeping your expectations realistic. If, after all that, you feel a flying career is still what you want, then there are plenty of outfits out there ready to take your 30,000 pounds to help you on your way. Sincerely, I wish you every luck with what is a most difficult decision.
Regards,
You wanted opinions, here's one that won't be popular but its based my own experiences and outlook.
I've been at this for 30 years and have 18,000+ hours in diverse areas of the industry. Its been Airline mostly but I've done bush flying (3 years), helicopters (1250 hrs), delivery, cargo (B744) and have even owned my own Cessna 170B. I'm typed on 6 airplanes including the B744 and Airbus A320 with a check airman letter.
Bottom line is while I love flying, it is after-all all I have ever done, I hate the industry, what it has become and where it is headed. Yes, I've had some great times but if I had all to do over again I would do something else. The industry, for pilots at least, peaked about 20 years ago and has gotten worse every year since. I shudder to think what my next 10 years will bring. Unfortunately I have too much invested in this career and I am too far along in age and obligations now to do anything about it.
When I think of how much time and effort I put into what I've been doing the last 30 years and look at the current returns and outlook, I am bitterly disappointed. Doing what what one enjoys or loves doing is a luxury that comes AFTER earning what it takes to take care of yourself and your family in a way that makes one satisfied. Aviation is a field with a diminished capacity to do that.
In the end you will end up doing what you believe is best in your given circumstances. You should be aware however that as well as the initial high investment and expenses you will be faced with the difficulty of getting any job in the first couple of years and a decent paying one for a few years after that. Be also aware that the "big" payoff toward the end of your career, a wide-body command or a secure well paying position affording you a comfortable QOL, may not be there and is dependent on so many things outside your control. One has medicals, check rides, the price of oil, market forces and industry pressures that have the potential to end careers or close companies forcing the pilot to start at the bottom over and over again.
Now, before I get all the flaming/advice that I should just quit and move onto to something else that I enjoy doing let me reiterate something I said before. I am not in a position to do that and that is another trap of an aviation career. It takes such a personal investment of money, time and effort that one can get to a position where one either cannot get out or it is incredibly difficult to do so. IN MY OWN CASE, it has not been worth it. The enjoyment of flying is far outweighed by the bureaucracy of flying, the concerns of potential career ending events, the abuse I and my colleagues suffer at the hands of airline management, the idiocy and shameful disregard of serious issues by regulatory authorities and the almost universally accepted poor outlook for the industry as a whole.
Again, this my opinion NOT my advice. My advice is to weigh the costs and benefits of what you are contemplating considering ALL the facts and keeping your expectations realistic. If, after all that, you feel a flying career is still what you want, then there are plenty of outfits out there ready to take your 30,000 pounds to help you on your way. Sincerely, I wish you every luck with what is a most difficult decision.
Regards,
Educated Hillbilly
Lan, as said you have had no other career than flying; if you had spent a few years in a design office working on aircraft or a few years in the hangars fixing them you would realise that it is a privilege to be flying them; I have now been in full time flying employment for approaching one year now, everytime I think something negative about flying then I just have to think if I wasn't flying I would be stuck back in the design office crunching numbers.
For the original poster, if you are asking the question should I do this? then I don't think you are dedicated enough. It is true if you think about this in a totally rational logical manner then you would never train as a pilot.
My experience is for those that want to do this or have done this, is we were going to do this anyway no matter how bad the econmomy/pilot recruimentment market is or was.
If you want to train as a pilot you are going to do it regardless of circumstance, the only reason not to advance for some one who wants to do this is the class one medical.
It is irrelevant looking at the current pilot recruitment market or trying to time your training to coincide with a recruitment boom as the market is so changeable; if the recruitment is on a down turn when you finish training just make sure you can afford to keep all your ratings current for a few years or can afford a instructors rating to keep yourself ticking along until the market does pick up again.
For the original poster, if you are asking the question should I do this? then I don't think you are dedicated enough. It is true if you think about this in a totally rational logical manner then you would never train as a pilot.
My experience is for those that want to do this or have done this, is we were going to do this anyway no matter how bad the econmomy/pilot recruimentment market is or was.
If you want to train as a pilot you are going to do it regardless of circumstance, the only reason not to advance for some one who wants to do this is the class one medical.
It is irrelevant looking at the current pilot recruitment market or trying to time your training to coincide with a recruitment boom as the market is so changeable; if the recruitment is on a down turn when you finish training just make sure you can afford to keep all your ratings current for a few years or can afford a instructors rating to keep yourself ticking along until the market does pick up again.
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A WHOLE year??
Port,
"it is a privilege to be flying them; I have now been in full time flying employment for approaching one year now, everytime I think something negative about flying then I just have to think if I wasn't flying I would be stuck back in the design office crunching numbers."
While I appreciate and acknowledge your right to opinion, I hardly think that your whole 365 days experience as a professional pilot qualifies your comment on the subject I was addressing, i.e. the long term. Talk to me again in 10 or 20 years after you've tried feeding and providing for your family with that privilege. Professional flying is just that, a profession. Talk to me again after you've been furloughed/laid off a couple of times and have been on consecutive lower starting salaries. Let me know if you have any negative thoughts after you find yourself making less, in real terms, with a lower QOL many years from now.
If you are happy with your decision and content with the current progression of your career, then I applaud your good fortune, wish you every success and sincerely hope it continues. Alas, for me it wasn't so. Perhaps the secret lies with feeling the "privilege" to be worth more than one's self or one's family. I respectfully submit however, that flying for a living is not worthy of such a pedestal and that both you and your family are worth and deserve more.
Cheers,
p.s. You may have the last word on this as I only wanted to give the original poster my solicited opinion, not engage in a debate on the relative merits of flying careers.
"it is a privilege to be flying them; I have now been in full time flying employment for approaching one year now, everytime I think something negative about flying then I just have to think if I wasn't flying I would be stuck back in the design office crunching numbers."
While I appreciate and acknowledge your right to opinion, I hardly think that your whole 365 days experience as a professional pilot qualifies your comment on the subject I was addressing, i.e. the long term. Talk to me again in 10 or 20 years after you've tried feeding and providing for your family with that privilege. Professional flying is just that, a profession. Talk to me again after you've been furloughed/laid off a couple of times and have been on consecutive lower starting salaries. Let me know if you have any negative thoughts after you find yourself making less, in real terms, with a lower QOL many years from now.
If you are happy with your decision and content with the current progression of your career, then I applaud your good fortune, wish you every success and sincerely hope it continues. Alas, for me it wasn't so. Perhaps the secret lies with feeling the "privilege" to be worth more than one's self or one's family. I respectfully submit however, that flying for a living is not worthy of such a pedestal and that both you and your family are worth and deserve more.
Cheers,
p.s. You may have the last word on this as I only wanted to give the original poster my solicited opinion, not engage in a debate on the relative merits of flying careers.
Educated Hillbilly
Fair points.
Limited flying experience yes, but also spent seven years in the aero engineering sector (I have seem several booms and busts on that sector in quite a limited time span): so I am comparing with a previous career, I don't doubt that in 20 years the novelty of flying may well have worn off. But I will always think what would be the alternative.
You'll find there are loads of industries where modern day terms and conditions are less favourable than those of previous years.
What do you think you would have done career wise knowing what you know now? You'll find most people are fed up with their careers after 20 or 30years.
Limited flying experience yes, but also spent seven years in the aero engineering sector (I have seem several booms and busts on that sector in quite a limited time span): so I am comparing with a previous career, I don't doubt that in 20 years the novelty of flying may well have worn off. But I will always think what would be the alternative.
You'll find there are loads of industries where modern day terms and conditions are less favourable than those of previous years.
What do you think you would have done career wise knowing what you know now? You'll find most people are fed up with their careers after 20 or 30years.
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I did my first 2 hours at multiflight before switching schools and they told me how great i was and i had a natural aptitude etc... I personally choose to believe them because it puts a smile on my face and gives me an ego boost
I only switched schools because i moved house and found myself living just as close to another school that was cheaper, friendlier and easier to get the hours when i wanted them rather than when i could be fit in. Multi were a great set up but as i say they are VERY busy and so you may find it difficult to get the hours in unless you book way way in advance and the weather at LBA often leaves something to be desired so your mega advanced booking is canceled at the last minute with no chance of re scheduling because they are so booked up. Very frustrating.
I only switched schools because i moved house and found myself living just as close to another school that was cheaper, friendlier and easier to get the hours when i wanted them rather than when i could be fit in. Multi were a great set up but as i say they are VERY busy and so you may find it difficult to get the hours in unless you book way way in advance and the weather at LBA often leaves something to be desired so your mega advanced booking is canceled at the last minute with no chance of re scheduling because they are so booked up. Very frustrating.
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Dear Leeds1972,
I don't know why I read PPrune threads at times as for the most part there is a lot of nonsense.
Your question is valid, and I was impressed by the replies you received.
I started later than you from a totally different background having failed maths/science at school and never believed I could do it- now airline employed. Never underestimate the power of bare faced determination!
In no particular order, I was impressed by the responses you received from LanFranc, Keith.Williams, SkyCamMK, Wee Weasley Welshman and portsharbourflyer. Their overall themes were obvious:
Do a class one medical before anything else. If you cannot get it but could hold a class two, you could always do a PPL which might satisfy your desire to fly without spending big money.
Do not listen to a commercial school telling you you're a natural- they want your money.
Expect it to cost far more than £30K- I'd allow up to £60K to be absolutely safe. You cannot get 95% there and not have the money to finish.
Once finished, there are no guarantees and the initial jobs are very poorly paid. Also aviation job security is thin on the ground these days, if you have a family, make sure your wife is 100% behind you and is willing to accept a relatively low living standard that could last for some time, and that multiple relocations could become a necessity with your new career. Your marriage is as good as finished if you are not together on this one.
If it is something you "must" do, if you work at it, you will succeed and remember, the hands-on flying part of a course is only one aspect of training. The bulk of your flight training will involve study, planning, pre flight preparation etc. Do not see this as a drag, it is integral with the job and a keeness to succeed in this area will greatly enhance your flying and the impression you leave on others. Push yourself to "learn" as much as you can from the ground school- don't merely memorise feedback answers as too many now see as the easy way to pass an exam. Pre airline, I was dismayed by the number of people who had finished ATPL exams yet displayed little knowledge or understanding. Don't fall into that trap.
Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.
I don't know why I read PPrune threads at times as for the most part there is a lot of nonsense.
Your question is valid, and I was impressed by the replies you received.
I started later than you from a totally different background having failed maths/science at school and never believed I could do it- now airline employed. Never underestimate the power of bare faced determination!
In no particular order, I was impressed by the responses you received from LanFranc, Keith.Williams, SkyCamMK, Wee Weasley Welshman and portsharbourflyer. Their overall themes were obvious:
Do a class one medical before anything else. If you cannot get it but could hold a class two, you could always do a PPL which might satisfy your desire to fly without spending big money.
Do not listen to a commercial school telling you you're a natural- they want your money.
Expect it to cost far more than £30K- I'd allow up to £60K to be absolutely safe. You cannot get 95% there and not have the money to finish.
Once finished, there are no guarantees and the initial jobs are very poorly paid. Also aviation job security is thin on the ground these days, if you have a family, make sure your wife is 100% behind you and is willing to accept a relatively low living standard that could last for some time, and that multiple relocations could become a necessity with your new career. Your marriage is as good as finished if you are not together on this one.
If it is something you "must" do, if you work at it, you will succeed and remember, the hands-on flying part of a course is only one aspect of training. The bulk of your flight training will involve study, planning, pre flight preparation etc. Do not see this as a drag, it is integral with the job and a keeness to succeed in this area will greatly enhance your flying and the impression you leave on others. Push yourself to "learn" as much as you can from the ground school- don't merely memorise feedback answers as too many now see as the easy way to pass an exam. Pre airline, I was dismayed by the number of people who had finished ATPL exams yet displayed little knowledge or understanding. Don't fall into that trap.
Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.
