OAT/NetJets Europe Stage 2
Registered User **
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adios,
I addressed the first 3 paragraphs to you, the rest is irrelevant.
Don't bother I'm no FI, I'm too busy convincing Asian airlines to select us for training.
I have a good view over costs in USA and I know very well what it costs to operate an FTO. Why should OAA be that different?
Full time instructors paid 40K a year working full time. I shall say it's slightly above the average pay but not tremendously much for a MEI.
Instructor costs are the smallest part of the game.
Hell, we could even start counting every kWh the FNPTII's are using...
80% of the costs of a flight school is related to the operation of the aircraft.
Important message to all OAA/NJE wannabe's: learn by heart ranges of all aircraft operated by NJE. Additionally, if you can give the reg of at least 10 NJE aircraft, an employment is guarranteed if you can pay the 60+K 
Those who have a loan are bonded. Those who don't, could be bonded if NJE wants it to be so because they're still paying for the TR.
Our instructors are working on the airfield since their youth, longer than 40 years for some.
Astronaut Mike Foreman who was onboard the Space Shuttle Endeavour last week was taught flying by one of our instructors so I don't see your point there...
I addressed the first 3 paragraphs to you, the rest is irrelevant.
Don't bother I'm no FI, I'm too busy convincing Asian airlines to select us for training.
I have a good view over costs in USA and I know very well what it costs to operate an FTO. Why should OAA be that different?
Full time instructors paid 40K a year working full time. I shall say it's slightly above the average pay but not tremendously much for a MEI.
Instructor costs are the smallest part of the game.
Hell, we could even start counting every kWh the FNPTII's are using...
80% of the costs of a flight school is related to the operation of the aircraft.
In his defense, if he attended OAA's NetJets selection process, then the range of a G-V is relevant to reveal how much research he has done into NetJets.
It would not surprise me if some of the NetJets applicants actually want to fly wide bodied airliners and plan to leave NetJets at the first opportunity
Consider some of their instructors have been with them for 20 years, while you work for a startup.
Astronaut Mike Foreman who was onboard the Space Shuttle Endeavour last week was taught flying by one of our instructors so I don't see your point there...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nichibei,
I am starting to see the light. Based on your last post, it seems that your role at Nichibei Aviation is something along the lines of Business Development or Student Placement, trying to get Asian airlines either to hire your graduates or even to engage in cadet programmes with your company. Having worked for an Asian manufacturing firm before, I am very familiar with the concept of "Guanxi." Thankfully, my role there didn't require me to participate in the shady activities. Though Guanxi doesn't always take the form of bribes and kickbacks, the fact that you work for a Japanese company and are trying to develop relationships with Asian airlines sheds a lot of light on why you think OAA is giving a £35K per cadet "advertising" fee to NetJets.
If you really think this is happening, you can report it to the UK Trading Standards Office and get OAA and NetJets shutdown and prosecuted, because it is illegal in the UK. Otherwise, you can keep spouting rubbish and hold on to your fantasy, but your credibility is fading faster than it takes a G500 to go 5,800 NM.
I am starting to see the light. Based on your last post, it seems that your role at Nichibei Aviation is something along the lines of Business Development or Student Placement, trying to get Asian airlines either to hire your graduates or even to engage in cadet programmes with your company. Having worked for an Asian manufacturing firm before, I am very familiar with the concept of "Guanxi." Thankfully, my role there didn't require me to participate in the shady activities. Though Guanxi doesn't always take the form of bribes and kickbacks, the fact that you work for a Japanese company and are trying to develop relationships with Asian airlines sheds a lot of light on why you think OAA is giving a £35K per cadet "advertising" fee to NetJets.
If you really think this is happening, you can report it to the UK Trading Standards Office and get OAA and NetJets shutdown and prosecuted, because it is illegal in the UK. Otherwise, you can keep spouting rubbish and hold on to your fantasy, but your credibility is fading faster than it takes a G500 to go 5,800 NM.
Registered User **
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adios, you're getting closer but you are still far.
We're looking to develop a training partnership with an Asian airline and my job is to discuss the possibilities with such airlines. The deal is about selecting and training pilots, very similarily to the NJE scheme, but at the airline's expense in exchange for a student bond.
A bit like China Eastern in Australia, I guess.
Many countries are experiencing pilot shortages in Asia.
There are ways to do this legally. But the time and emotions you put into convincing that every student should go for training programs paying 4 times the actual cost makes me think that you have personal interest involved in this discussion and that any attempt to explain will make you even more emotional.
I enjoyed this discussion in the beginning but now you're becoming too personal, so I quit, you won.
What is interesting about you is that you would not advertise your identity nor your role in aviation ever since you suscribed. Over half of your posts seem to be related to CTC or OAA giving information that is not available at hand and you never talk about personal experiences, so you should be someone on the inside or a customer of one of these organisations.
One of your posts on the other NJE/OAA thread:
You don't seem to be defending NJE but OAA here, so I rule out NJE.
Are you working for OAA or HSBC?
We're looking to develop a training partnership with an Asian airline and my job is to discuss the possibilities with such airlines. The deal is about selecting and training pilots, very similarily to the NJE scheme, but at the airline's expense in exchange for a student bond.
A bit like China Eastern in Australia, I guess.
Many countries are experiencing pilot shortages in Asia.
If you really think this is happening, you can report it to the UK Trading Standards Office and get OAA and NetJets shutdown and prosecuted, because it is illegal in the UK.
I enjoyed this discussion in the beginning but now you're becoming too personal, so I quit, you won.
What is interesting about you is that you would not advertise your identity nor your role in aviation ever since you suscribed. Over half of your posts seem to be related to CTC or OAA giving information that is not available at hand and you never talk about personal experiences, so you should be someone on the inside or a customer of one of these organisations.
One of your posts on the other NJE/OAA thread:
Oat doesn't force anybody to stay in their halls. NetJets require it, so if you want to complain about it, lay it at their doorstep if you think biting the hand that feeds you on a public forum is wise. More to the point though, VulcanFlyer says he is training elsewhere, so he has nothing to lose complaining about the NetJets programme. He also has nothing to gain by venting his spleen here even if his arguments prevail and Oat changes their pricing, so perhaps he should not be so surprised someone thinks he's bitter towards Oat for doing so. If he would take out a few full page adverts in international magazines and write up all of his complaints about Oat pricing, he might learn that recruiting cadets has an advertsing cost that never crossed his mind might need be recovered.
The bottom line is nobody forces anyone to go there, so if you don't like it, don't apply, if you applied and don't like it, withdraw so there's less competition for those who really want it.
It's a free country, so complain all you want. NetJets are probably better off without the more cynical types anyway, so men like VulcanFlyer could actually be doing them a favour by running off those who are easily dissuaded by less than sound arguments against the programme.
The bottom line is nobody forces anyone to go there, so if you don't like it, don't apply, if you applied and don't like it, withdraw so there's less competition for those who really want it.
It's a free country, so complain all you want. NetJets are probably better off without the more cynical types anyway, so men like VulcanFlyer could actually be doing them a favour by running off those who are easily dissuaded by less than sound arguments against the programme.
Are you working for OAA or HSBC?
Last edited by Nichibei Aviation; 30th Mar 2008 at 01:13.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If your job is negotiating with airlines for their training business, it doesn’t seem like a sound strategy to publicly slag off other FTOs and airlines by accusing them of engaging in unethical and perhaps even illegal kickbacks in exchange for jobs. I doubt that this is how the industry works, other than maybe in the Far East. If you can offer proof of your claim instead if innuendo, you'll win me over.
If this is the secret behind OAA's success, I should think they would have been caught by now. On the other hand, it is completely illogical that an airline would do this, much less one run by one of the most ethical investors in the world. Imagine what a morale buster it would be if word ever got out this was really happening. It could ruin NetJets overnight. It is apparent that this is a fruitless discussion, as you don't respond to logic and reason, so I am done.
If this is the secret behind OAA's success, I should think they would have been caught by now. On the other hand, it is completely illogical that an airline would do this, much less one run by one of the most ethical investors in the world. Imagine what a morale buster it would be if word ever got out this was really happening. It could ruin NetJets overnight. It is apparent that this is a fruitless discussion, as you don't respond to logic and reason, so I am done.
Registered User **
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not accusing anyone, just telling what is strange about this scheme.
Why would NJE need OAA cadets when they receive hundreds of applications from experienced airline f/O's and captains?
What about NJE's reputation?
What are the customers going to think about it when they realise a 250 hour F/O with no experience is going to fly their 6000 euro flight?
In business aviation it does occur that the customer asks pilot's experience prior to flight.
Netjets USA wouldn't let you touch the controls before 2500TT, what's so different about flying in Europe? What makes a 200 hour F/O too dangerous to consider in USA but safe in Europe?
Is it the training at OAA that makes any cadet worth a 2500 houred pilot?
I think that there's something else than OAA's reputation that has convinced Netjets to jump on the scheme.
Just for the record:
I have nothing against OAA. I am against any flight schools that earn huge amounts of money by ripping off their students.
I am not against integrated schools. I am against integrated schools that teach flying in the US and charge students the European price.
Finally, I am not against people giving future students a good advise. I am against people who encourage uninformed students to enroll into such schools and programs.
Before starting training, I have visited many schools myself including some integrated schools like KLS. Me and a friend of mine started laughing when they told us the price tag of their program. 120K euro.
yeah right. KLS are training at Sabena's base in Arizona and Sabena Flight Academy only charges 77K for the exact same training at the exact same airfield using the exact same aircraft. The presentator couldn't answer when I asked why there was such a price difference between KLS and SFA.
I am happy that I had come to realise what flight schools really were about before I started training. I never dreamed of actually working for one...
Why would NJE need OAA cadets when they receive hundreds of applications from experienced airline f/O's and captains?
What about NJE's reputation?
What are the customers going to think about it when they realise a 250 hour F/O with no experience is going to fly their 6000 euro flight?
In business aviation it does occur that the customer asks pilot's experience prior to flight.
Netjets USA wouldn't let you touch the controls before 2500TT, what's so different about flying in Europe? What makes a 200 hour F/O too dangerous to consider in USA but safe in Europe?
Is it the training at OAA that makes any cadet worth a 2500 houred pilot?
I think that there's something else than OAA's reputation that has convinced Netjets to jump on the scheme.
Just for the record:
I have nothing against OAA. I am against any flight schools that earn huge amounts of money by ripping off their students.
I am not against integrated schools. I am against integrated schools that teach flying in the US and charge students the European price.
Finally, I am not against people giving future students a good advise. I am against people who encourage uninformed students to enroll into such schools and programs.
Before starting training, I have visited many schools myself including some integrated schools like KLS. Me and a friend of mine started laughing when they told us the price tag of their program. 120K euro.
yeah right. KLS are training at Sabena's base in Arizona and Sabena Flight Academy only charges 77K for the exact same training at the exact same airfield using the exact same aircraft. The presentator couldn't answer when I asked why there was such a price difference between KLS and SFA.
I am happy that I had come to realise what flight schools really were about before I started training. I never dreamed of actually working for one...
Last edited by Nichibei Aviation; 31st Mar 2008 at 05:54.
Registered User **
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Adios, why have you been so careful not to give away any hint or clue about what you are doing in aviation over your past hundreds of posts on this forum? What keeps you from telling who you are?
What is your function in aviation?
Why do you defend OAA day and night?
Where do you get insider information from OAA?
Why are you so interested in OAA?
What is your function in aviation?
Why do you defend OAA day and night?
Where do you get insider information from OAA?
Why are you so interested in OAA?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nichibei,
I thought I was done, but I suppose those following this thread deserve to know my interest in OAA and NetJets. For them, I will wade into the pit one last time.
I would like one of my offspring to train there or at CTC after he finishes university. I am retired from professional flying and no longer able to hold a Class 1, but that doesn't prevent me from encouraging wannabes to pursue their dream. Do I know a lot about OAA and favour them? Yes. Until recently, there’s been little need to defend them. I don't mind you questioning my motives, but most of what I post is readily available on OAA’s web site, and some of what I know comes from emailing and speaking to their staff and visiting their facilities.
Slagging on integrated schools (and bad modular ones) is common, but it is usually the wannabes and students that do it. This is the first time I have seen one repeatedly bad-mouthed by another FTO. You have gone a bit beyond mere bad mouthing though, and on to libel. I doubt that you've convinced many to wave off and both OAA and NetJets are probably better off without anyone who can't see the holes in your theory.
There is no doubt that OAA is profitable, it’s been sold twice in the last decade and neither was what you’d call a fire sale. To jump from the conclusion of profitability, to OAA enticing an airline into a cadet programme with a bribe or kickback in the form of a share of the windfall is not just a leap of faith, it is a huge, libelous leap of bad faith. I find it strange that the accusation hasn’t been made regarding OAA’s other cadet programmes. Somehow NetJets is seen as higher and mightier than Thomas Cook, XL and FlyBe, those bottom feeders who can hide lousy newbies behind an armoured door. In fact, FlyBe is so low that they had to kick back the kickback! Never mind that BA used to sponsor their cadets at OAA and there are rumours that they are soon to start a new cadet scheme, though none of the rumour mongers say where. The likes of these airlines don’t have to worry so much about poor quality, low hour pilots. But what would force almighty NetJets, who have a drawer full of CVs into establishing a cadet scheme? Oh it must be something sinister like a bribe!
God save us from twisted logic and bitter envy!
I thought I was done, but I suppose those following this thread deserve to know my interest in OAA and NetJets. For them, I will wade into the pit one last time.
I would like one of my offspring to train there or at CTC after he finishes university. I am retired from professional flying and no longer able to hold a Class 1, but that doesn't prevent me from encouraging wannabes to pursue their dream. Do I know a lot about OAA and favour them? Yes. Until recently, there’s been little need to defend them. I don't mind you questioning my motives, but most of what I post is readily available on OAA’s web site, and some of what I know comes from emailing and speaking to their staff and visiting their facilities.
Slagging on integrated schools (and bad modular ones) is common, but it is usually the wannabes and students that do it. This is the first time I have seen one repeatedly bad-mouthed by another FTO. You have gone a bit beyond mere bad mouthing though, and on to libel. I doubt that you've convinced many to wave off and both OAA and NetJets are probably better off without anyone who can't see the holes in your theory.
There is no doubt that OAA is profitable, it’s been sold twice in the last decade and neither was what you’d call a fire sale. To jump from the conclusion of profitability, to OAA enticing an airline into a cadet programme with a bribe or kickback in the form of a share of the windfall is not just a leap of faith, it is a huge, libelous leap of bad faith. I find it strange that the accusation hasn’t been made regarding OAA’s other cadet programmes. Somehow NetJets is seen as higher and mightier than Thomas Cook, XL and FlyBe, those bottom feeders who can hide lousy newbies behind an armoured door. In fact, FlyBe is so low that they had to kick back the kickback! Never mind that BA used to sponsor their cadets at OAA and there are rumours that they are soon to start a new cadet scheme, though none of the rumour mongers say where. The likes of these airlines don’t have to worry so much about poor quality, low hour pilots. But what would force almighty NetJets, who have a drawer full of CVs into establishing a cadet scheme? Oh it must be something sinister like a bribe!
God save us from twisted logic and bitter envy!
Registered User **
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok that clears some things up.
Still, I'm expressing my opinion as a trainee as I've repeatedly said and my comments here do not represent the opinion of the organisation I work for.
It's easy to say: "I don't agree with you, so your employer sucks" but that doesn't make any sense.
Most of my aguments here are funded. I know what it costs to operate an aircraft and to hire instrcutors and that cost isn't much different at OAA or CTC, etc... as anyone would agree. I've shown in a previous example what it really takes to train a student from 0 to fATPL. Ok, you can add human resource costs, etc... but the margins are still way too big.
Though your grandsons may be able to afford paying cash for such schemes as their grandfather and retired commercial pilot would be in a position to sponsor them, many students visiting this forum are not as fortunate. Many have to offer their parent's sole belongings as security for the huge loans...
Students are taking high risks while schools are earning great profits.
If these schools would give them at least 350 hours or 400 hours of flying for that price I would agree and would have nothing to say.
Now let me tell you what is going to happen over the next 5 years.
Low cost flight schools are going to start competing against glamour expensive flight schools. Expensive flight schools will find themselves forced to reduce their rates to compete.
Such tendency is already seen in Belgium. Sabena Flight academy was selling integrated fATPL for 87000 EUR till 2007. 5 flight schools have started competing extensively against SFA by offering lower pricing.
As a result SFA started focusing on training Indian pilots and lowered their JAA fATPL price down to 77000EUR.
And guess what? SFA is selling the almost same program as the 77 000EUR JAA fAtpl to Kingfisher cadets at 39000 USD or about 26 000EUR...
Proof?
There http://www.eznetsolution.com/sabena/...assistance.htm
and www.sfa.be
I hope that de-twisted your logic.
Still, I'm expressing my opinion as a trainee as I've repeatedly said and my comments here do not represent the opinion of the organisation I work for.
It's easy to say: "I don't agree with you, so your employer sucks" but that doesn't make any sense.
Most of my aguments here are funded. I know what it costs to operate an aircraft and to hire instrcutors and that cost isn't much different at OAA or CTC, etc... as anyone would agree. I've shown in a previous example what it really takes to train a student from 0 to fATPL. Ok, you can add human resource costs, etc... but the margins are still way too big.
Though your grandsons may be able to afford paying cash for such schemes as their grandfather and retired commercial pilot would be in a position to sponsor them, many students visiting this forum are not as fortunate. Many have to offer their parent's sole belongings as security for the huge loans...
Students are taking high risks while schools are earning great profits.
If these schools would give them at least 350 hours or 400 hours of flying for that price I would agree and would have nothing to say.
Now let me tell you what is going to happen over the next 5 years.
Low cost flight schools are going to start competing against glamour expensive flight schools. Expensive flight schools will find themselves forced to reduce their rates to compete.
Such tendency is already seen in Belgium. Sabena Flight academy was selling integrated fATPL for 87000 EUR till 2007. 5 flight schools have started competing extensively against SFA by offering lower pricing.
As a result SFA started focusing on training Indian pilots and lowered their JAA fATPL price down to 77000EUR.
And guess what? SFA is selling the almost same program as the 77 000EUR JAA fAtpl to Kingfisher cadets at 39000 USD or about 26 000EUR...
Proof?
There http://www.eznetsolution.com/sabena/...assistance.htm
and www.sfa.be
I hope that de-twisted your logic.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: france
Posts: 304
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HELLO everyone,
I am looking for students who are doing the training in Phoenix (Falcon Airfield) for some informations I need.
I will contact you by pm.
Thank you very much
I am looking for students who are doing the training in Phoenix (Falcon Airfield) for some informations I need.
I will contact you by pm.
Thank you very much
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: at the whim of people I've never met
Age: 46
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NA's grasp on banking and finances has been clearly demonstrated to be hilarious - I loved the compound interest section, nearly made me fall off my chair!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 49
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not so much the compound interest thing that got me, but more the way that, apparently, when you take a loan with a bank, they take back every penny piece you earn until it's repayed, causing you to live in a cardboard box. I think NA must have been thinking of a loan shark when he came up with the figures...explains the interest figures and the repay every penny.....
Also love the "fact" that to provide an ATPL training course only costs £15000.....Despite a PPL costing what? 5-6 thousand on it's own?
Also love the "fact" that to provide an ATPL training course only costs £15000.....Despite a PPL costing what? 5-6 thousand on it's own?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cologne / Germany
Age: 42
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello folks...
yesterday I've got the first invitation-email of NetJets Europe for Phase II of the selection process.
How long does it take to receive the 2nd one, with the exact appointment date?
They say that the assessmentcenter period will start on the 20th of May.
Rightnow I'll have on 20-21st May another Assessment at AirBerlin in Germany, is it possible to reschedule at NetJets?
Plz.. dont worry about my English.. I'm sorry.. but it's not my mother's tongue...
I have some words for Nichbei...
Indeed it is not absurd.
I got a bachelor degree in Media Computer Sciences and I worked a lot on usability testing of software. Also I know a lot of deductive testing methods. So these methods used in Assessmentcenters, are very good to find out which skills, especially cognitive skills an applier has.
The mistake rate is only about 2-3% for one test.
Most of the candidates will not be kicked out if they fail only in one of these tests, or only if there is a link through all the other tests, which are made, showing a "misbehavior" in a certain case.
The only thing Assessmentcentertests can be criticized for, is for their failure-probability in prediction of a certain character. The rate of wrong prediction is here about 16%.
But enterprises are even better off with that than having just a normal simple job interview. Also these tests can predict if you have the abilities for being a pilot, or not, or at least they can predict how successful you will be during a training to become a pilot.
Indeed interests and motivation is an important aspect, but not the only one. And remember it is an selection process of an enterprise.... and the have the right to define the requirements of what they think is important to fullfill the company's needs for a certain job.
yesterday I've got the first invitation-email of NetJets Europe for Phase II of the selection process.
How long does it take to receive the 2nd one, with the exact appointment date?
They say that the assessmentcenter period will start on the 20th of May.
Rightnow I'll have on 20-21st May another Assessment at AirBerlin in Germany, is it possible to reschedule at NetJets?
Plz.. dont worry about my English.. I'm sorry.. but it's not my mother's tongue...
I have some words for Nichbei...
How can they determine in 2 or 3 selection sessions based on many things that have nothing to do with flying an aircraft, whether a candidate is good for the job? Absurd.
I got a bachelor degree in Media Computer Sciences and I worked a lot on usability testing of software. Also I know a lot of deductive testing methods. So these methods used in Assessmentcenters, are very good to find out which skills, especially cognitive skills an applier has.
The mistake rate is only about 2-3% for one test.
Most of the candidates will not be kicked out if they fail only in one of these tests, or only if there is a link through all the other tests, which are made, showing a "misbehavior" in a certain case.
The only thing Assessmentcentertests can be criticized for, is for their failure-probability in prediction of a certain character. The rate of wrong prediction is here about 16%.
But enterprises are even better off with that than having just a normal simple job interview. Also these tests can predict if you have the abilities for being a pilot, or not, or at least they can predict how successful you will be during a training to become a pilot.
Many candidates who pass such selections and are half way in training (and in some exceptional cases graduated already) wouldn't be able to tell you whether they're looking at a B737 or A320 if showed a picture. Interest and motivation should be the first selecting criteria and not stupid personnality question papers.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: tahiti
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also love the "fact" that to provide an ATPL training course only costs £15000.....Despite a PPL costing what? 5-6 thousand on it's own?
1. This program is flown in the US
2. We're discussing nett costs for the FTO, not what the student actually pays.
I've given you a pretty good idea with 15K and I stand by that comment.
I've taken a steady value of outstanding balance because the students won't pay anything back until 2-3 years after start. That gives a pretty good idea. OAA says by itself that the student would repay 20K euro for 6 years, that equals 120Keuro, doesn't it?
Now, if the GBP drops further against the euro, this could become interesting. Those who started last year have already earned themselves a 15% discount.
I would certainly recommend the program if it weren't for the high price tag and additional personal investment.
I'm not stopping anyone, I'm just giving these people looking at a huge investment, the benefit of the doubt.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nichibei,
You're giving them two things. Your opinions about training costs, which is fair enough. You're also giving statements that you claim as fact that contradict the information published on the forum and the NetJets FAQ on OAA's web site.
If you will get the facts right it would go a long way towards earning the respect of other members.
You're giving them two things. Your opinions about training costs, which is fair enough. You're also giving statements that you claim as fact that contradict the information published on the forum and the NetJets FAQ on OAA's web site.
If you will get the facts right it would go a long way towards earning the respect of other members.
Last edited by Adios; 20th Apr 2008 at 15:16.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: tahiti
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not seeking popularity Adios, I'm seeking fairness and common sense.
I guess I'm popular enough already with people even trying to crack the password of my Pprune account...
Adios, I undoubtly gave some strange demonstrations with expanded figures and I'm sure that there are dozens of candidate guys and gals who took the opportunity to calculate what they would really be spending, just to prove me wrong even if they wouldn't publish that here.
Would they have done that if we would all have been saying something in the lines of "great program with job guarrantee"? I doubt it.
I'd rather make myself ridiculous on a few pages of this forum than having all these people realise one day that they have been naïve when signing the contract.
I wouldn't be very happy to realise that I would be stuck with a nett salary of 2500€ per month for 5 to 6 years + per diems (but you'll need them) while being bonded for that period without the opportunity to upgrade and after injecting a huge investement in other costs not covered by the price...
Just to prove you that the cost of integrated doesn't make any sense,
OAA sells the modular for less than 40K (around 35K)...
I would definitely recommend the latter.
I guess I'm popular enough already with people even trying to crack the password of my Pprune account...
Adios, I undoubtly gave some strange demonstrations with expanded figures and I'm sure that there are dozens of candidate guys and gals who took the opportunity to calculate what they would really be spending, just to prove me wrong even if they wouldn't publish that here.
Would they have done that if we would all have been saying something in the lines of "great program with job guarrantee"? I doubt it.
I'd rather make myself ridiculous on a few pages of this forum than having all these people realise one day that they have been naïve when signing the contract.
I wouldn't be very happy to realise that I would be stuck with a nett salary of 2500€ per month for 5 to 6 years + per diems (but you'll need them) while being bonded for that period without the opportunity to upgrade and after injecting a huge investement in other costs not covered by the price...
Just to prove you that the cost of integrated doesn't make any sense,
OAA sells the modular for less than 40K (around 35K)...
I would definitely recommend the latter.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair enough, but don't whinge that everyone thinks you're biased when people point out the flaws.
OAA Modular pricing does not include the first 150 hours of training.
Resident ground school is £4400 plus 14X£63 for exam fees. Add in meals and food and it's probably £4-5K more.
Waypoint is £27,000 plus 2x£1750 for the check rides.
Add in meals and accommodation, M1 visa fees and return flights to Phoenix and you are upwards of £45K and will probably have spent £10K to £15K more for the PPL and 150 hours and living expenses depending on where you did it.
Is it less expensive than Integrated? Yes. Does OAA hide that fact? No. Do they hold a gun to people's heads and make them go Integrated? No. Some people don't want the hassles of managing the whole process themselves, they just want to book a package and get it all done quickly as possible and many are willing to pay more for it.
I suspect if an FTO tries to get certification to offer Integrated training they will soon discover the overhead of earning and maintaining that approval will drive their costs up a lot. I am sort of using Nichibei logic here, but if Modular and Integrated could be delivered for the same cost to the FTO, there would probably be a lot more Integrated schools.
OAA Modular pricing does not include the first 150 hours of training.
Resident ground school is £4400 plus 14X£63 for exam fees. Add in meals and food and it's probably £4-5K more.
Waypoint is £27,000 plus 2x£1750 for the check rides.
Add in meals and accommodation, M1 visa fees and return flights to Phoenix and you are upwards of £45K and will probably have spent £10K to £15K more for the PPL and 150 hours and living expenses depending on where you did it.
Is it less expensive than Integrated? Yes. Does OAA hide that fact? No. Do they hold a gun to people's heads and make them go Integrated? No. Some people don't want the hassles of managing the whole process themselves, they just want to book a package and get it all done quickly as possible and many are willing to pay more for it.
I suspect if an FTO tries to get certification to offer Integrated training they will soon discover the overhead of earning and maintaining that approval will drive their costs up a lot. I am sort of using Nichibei logic here, but if Modular and Integrated could be delivered for the same cost to the FTO, there would probably be a lot more Integrated schools.
Last edited by Adios; 20th Apr 2008 at 15:43.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: tahiti
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair enough, but don't whinge that everyone thinks you're biased when people point out the flaws.
I'm sorry, I was told the 35K were for 0 to fATPL and I've just checked that the first 150 hours are indeed not included which makes it excessively expensive.
I understand now that the modular is
27K+4.4K+ PPL&150 15K = 46.4K
and integrated = 62K
All other expenses apply almost equally to both programs.
A 15K difference still makes it quite huge. JAA certification costs some money alright but that is not the reason why not every FTO is modular. Modular gives more flexibility (schedule, money & work) to students and that is the selling point for most modular schools.