Hour Building up to CPL
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Hour Building up to CPL
Hi All,
I will soon be finishing off my PPL(a) and getting a TMG rating on it. I am an instructor on a RAF gliding squadron and have 230 hours on sailplanes (vikings) and 80 hours, and counting, on TMG (vigilants).
My ultimate aim is to end up with a frozen ATPL and become an airline pilot. The integrated course is too expensive for me and going to Spain/ NZ for 12 months is not an option as me & the Mrs have a new baby. The modular route is my preferred method so I can continue working and pay for it that way.
I know that some TMG hours are allowed, however I have heard that with the military flying in TMG that all the hours can be counted. Is this true?
My questions:
1. How much of my current experience I can use up to the minimum 150 hours for a CPL?
2. With a PPL(a) with TMG rating, can I use any future time logged in the vigilant as 'hour building' up to the 150 hour minimum for a CPL? If so, can I solely use vigilant hours or is there a restriction to the number of hours I can claim?
Obviously I am not blind to the fact that the CPL skills test will be hard and I plan to work up to it by combining vigilant flying (if allowed) with extra courses such as IR, IMC, and night rating.
Once I have worked up to CPL with hopefully an I/R course, I plan to obtain an instructor rating and build up to 1,000 hours whilst training, studying and ultimately passing my ATPL and associated courses.
Any help on the questions posted would be much appreciated.
I will soon be finishing off my PPL(a) and getting a TMG rating on it. I am an instructor on a RAF gliding squadron and have 230 hours on sailplanes (vikings) and 80 hours, and counting, on TMG (vigilants).
My ultimate aim is to end up with a frozen ATPL and become an airline pilot. The integrated course is too expensive for me and going to Spain/ NZ for 12 months is not an option as me & the Mrs have a new baby. The modular route is my preferred method so I can continue working and pay for it that way.
I know that some TMG hours are allowed, however I have heard that with the military flying in TMG that all the hours can be counted. Is this true?
My questions:
1. How much of my current experience I can use up to the minimum 150 hours for a CPL?
2. With a PPL(a) with TMG rating, can I use any future time logged in the vigilant as 'hour building' up to the 150 hour minimum for a CPL? If so, can I solely use vigilant hours or is there a restriction to the number of hours I can claim?
Obviously I am not blind to the fact that the CPL skills test will be hard and I plan to work up to it by combining vigilant flying (if allowed) with extra courses such as IR, IMC, and night rating.
Once I have worked up to CPL with hopefully an I/R course, I plan to obtain an instructor rating and build up to 1,000 hours whilst training, studying and ultimately passing my ATPL and associated courses.
Any help on the questions posted would be much appreciated.
Join Date: May 2007
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LASORS states that you can use 30 hrs of the Vigilant PIC time towards the 200 hrs TT for the CPL but not towards any of the more specific requirements such as the 100 hrs PIC.
It doesn't mention anything about sailplanes.
It doesn't mention anything about sailplanes.
Join Date: May 2003
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Lost in cloud,
A few minor points to stop you heading off in completely the wrong direction.
LASORS is not completely clear on the following but this is the best I can make of it:
Of the 200 hours total time required for the issue of the CPL, up to 30 hours of pilot in command of a glider or motorglider (including vigilant) can be credited. It fails to mention whether these hours must be logged by the holder of a PPL with TMG rating or whether they will accept your Air Cadet Corps. logbook as sufficient evidence to allow you the credit. Clearly however you can use a maximum of 30 hours of glider or motorglider, but not both.
A brief summary of what hours you need is as follows:
PPL - min 45 hours including 10 solo and minimum 25 hours dual instruction.
The ppl is your entry ticket the the ATPL exams and is clearly your start point for hours building. You cannot start a full time or distance learning course without a valid PPL.
Once you have the PPL, the exams passed, a night rating and 150 hours total time including you can START the CPL course.
They will not issue the licence until you have 200 hours including 100 PIC and 20 hours cross country PIC.
The muti engine course and the instrument rating course are ratings that are bolted onto your licence. You can do both prior to your CPL but you need 70 hours PIC to start the multi engine course and for the IR you need a pass in either the IR exams or ATPL's and 50 hours cross country PIC. However without the CPL you won't be able to make a living and in reality the entry requirements for both of these mean you will inevitably be close to the 150 hours required to start your CPL.
The good news is that your vigilant hours do count towards a PPL. They still have a gotcha in that you must still complete 25 hours of dual instruction and 10 hours supervised solo. It does however mean you could complete the course in 35 hours (not a problem for a current vigilant driver I would have thought).
Hope this helps,
Obs
A few minor points to stop you heading off in completely the wrong direction.
LASORS is not completely clear on the following but this is the best I can make of it:
Of the 200 hours total time required for the issue of the CPL, up to 30 hours of pilot in command of a glider or motorglider (including vigilant) can be credited. It fails to mention whether these hours must be logged by the holder of a PPL with TMG rating or whether they will accept your Air Cadet Corps. logbook as sufficient evidence to allow you the credit. Clearly however you can use a maximum of 30 hours of glider or motorglider, but not both.
A brief summary of what hours you need is as follows:
PPL - min 45 hours including 10 solo and minimum 25 hours dual instruction.
The ppl is your entry ticket the the ATPL exams and is clearly your start point for hours building. You cannot start a full time or distance learning course without a valid PPL.
Once you have the PPL, the exams passed, a night rating and 150 hours total time including you can START the CPL course.
They will not issue the licence until you have 200 hours including 100 PIC and 20 hours cross country PIC.
The muti engine course and the instrument rating course are ratings that are bolted onto your licence. You can do both prior to your CPL but you need 70 hours PIC to start the multi engine course and for the IR you need a pass in either the IR exams or ATPL's and 50 hours cross country PIC. However without the CPL you won't be able to make a living and in reality the entry requirements for both of these mean you will inevitably be close to the 150 hours required to start your CPL.
The good news is that your vigilant hours do count towards a PPL. They still have a gotcha in that you must still complete 25 hours of dual instruction and 10 hours supervised solo. It does however mean you could complete the course in 35 hours (not a problem for a current vigilant driver I would have thought).
Hope this helps,
Obs
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Lost in Cloud,
If you want a definitive answer then phone the CAA and ask for Flight Crew Licensing. They will be able to put you straight on whats required.
I think you need to have a look at the structure of courses as well. You'll more likely be building up to an IR Skills test following completion of your CPL rather than the other way around. The CPL test is a walk in the park compared to the IR. The CPL is basically just a jazzed up PPL. Th IR on the other hand is whole different ball game.
If you want a definitive answer then phone the CAA and ask for Flight Crew Licensing. They will be able to put you straight on whats required.
I think you need to have a look at the structure of courses as well. You'll more likely be building up to an IR Skills test following completion of your CPL rather than the other way around. The CPL test is a walk in the park compared to the IR. The CPL is basically just a jazzed up PPL. Th IR on the other hand is whole different ball game.
Join Date: May 2007
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Gliding for hour building
I am partiuclarly interested in this thread, as I used to go gliding up at Aboyne in bonny Deeside. I am currently finishing off my PPL and had been told many a time that co-ordnation of rudder and nice co-ordinated turns is far better in glider pilots than powered for the same hours. So, I was thinking, if 30 hours can go towards CPL hour building, and according to my schools CFI "students on the CPL don't use the rudder enough and are not accurate enough with turns" then would it be an idea to do 30 hours gliding to jazz up the old rudder control and turn co-ordination?
For me, i'd have to do a fair bit of dual i would think. But, at approx 30quid to get a good hour, compared with 110 powered, even the cost would be a benefit. Would it be worth doing? Or would the hours be more beneficial powered?
Any thoughts folks?
For me, i'd have to do a fair bit of dual i would think. But, at approx 30quid to get a good hour, compared with 110 powered, even the cost would be a benefit. Would it be worth doing? Or would the hours be more beneficial powered?
Any thoughts folks?
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Hi Lost in Cloud,
Fellow vigi driver here and I'm already down the route your looking at.
You can get a PPL(A) with TMG rating. For this (PPL only) all vigi time can be counted. What you will most likely need to do is go to a civi outfit (such as Oxfordshire Sports Flying at Enstone, as I did) and brush up on nav and get the qualifying cross country done and a few hours of test prep. If you are as lucky as I was you may get a very accomodating RAF regular who has a TMG examiner ticket. Mine didnt even charge a test fee.
Once you have PPL(A) with TMG, a few hours and general handling test gets the SEP class rating to add to the PPL.
As for Vigi hours for CPL, ONLY 30 hours can be counted, and I know people have had CPL application returned due to this (even after passing CPL skills test fell short of 200 hours TT).
It sucks, I know. I got CPL skills test pass 2 weeks ago, and cannot apply because although I have over 400 hours, when I count up the SEP hours I have over 100 PIC but 186TT which is 14 hours short of the 200TT requirement for CPL issue. Still got the MEP and IR ahead though, so will apply for it all together.
If you want any more info or have any more questions send a PM.... or call 664 VGS and ask for "OC Beer"
Good luck!
BBL
Fellow vigi driver here and I'm already down the route your looking at.
You can get a PPL(A) with TMG rating. For this (PPL only) all vigi time can be counted. What you will most likely need to do is go to a civi outfit (such as Oxfordshire Sports Flying at Enstone, as I did) and brush up on nav and get the qualifying cross country done and a few hours of test prep. If you are as lucky as I was you may get a very accomodating RAF regular who has a TMG examiner ticket. Mine didnt even charge a test fee.
Once you have PPL(A) with TMG, a few hours and general handling test gets the SEP class rating to add to the PPL.
As for Vigi hours for CPL, ONLY 30 hours can be counted, and I know people have had CPL application returned due to this (even after passing CPL skills test fell short of 200 hours TT).
It sucks, I know. I got CPL skills test pass 2 weeks ago, and cannot apply because although I have over 400 hours, when I count up the SEP hours I have over 100 PIC but 186TT which is 14 hours short of the 200TT requirement for CPL issue. Still got the MEP and IR ahead though, so will apply for it all together.If you want any more info or have any more questions send a PM.... or call 664 VGS and ask for "OC Beer"
Good luck!
BBL
