No Touch & Gos allowed
A way to save on landing fees perhaps? eg company is paid £200 an hour, if each landing is £5 getting 3-4 landings an hours instead of 6-7 saves £15 or to put it another way makes an extra 7.5% profit
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This decision clearly results from the number of runway 'incidents' out in Goodyear over the last 6 months.
Particularly - the really really bad runway incursion that left an a/c written off back in the Summer.
I'm not sure the decision rests entirely with the flying school in question but I suspect the FAA might have put a certain amount of insistence upon the school due to the increased regularity of these incidents.
Obviously it's a disadvantage to any student going out there to train.
I guess the only option would be to try and sneak in some touch n goes at Mobile, Gila Bend, Buckeye - and if you're likely to get caught go to one of the controlled airfields and do it, Chandler / Williams Gateway / Deer Valley?
I believe the flying school has undergone an element of restructure and the guys who are now heading up the operation are pretty decent guys - albeit strict and very much by-the-book but I expect the FAA have had a quiet word and this is the result.....
Particularly - the really really bad runway incursion that left an a/c written off back in the Summer.
I'm not sure the decision rests entirely with the flying school in question but I suspect the FAA might have put a certain amount of insistence upon the school due to the increased regularity of these incidents.
Obviously it's a disadvantage to any student going out there to train.
I guess the only option would be to try and sneak in some touch n goes at Mobile, Gila Bend, Buckeye - and if you're likely to get caught go to one of the controlled airfields and do it, Chandler / Williams Gateway / Deer Valley?
I believe the flying school has undergone an element of restructure and the guys who are now heading up the operation are pretty decent guys - albeit strict and very much by-the-book but I expect the FAA have had a quiet word and this is the result.....
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Wingo
Have a look at the schedules? I was a PPL flight instructor, I have no need to. Doubling the time for solo circuits is going to cost several hundred pounds, at no cost to the school and no increase in safety. It is a rip off.
Have a look at the schedules? I was a PPL flight instructor, I have no need to. Doubling the time for solo circuits is going to cost several hundred pounds, at no cost to the school and no increase in safety. It is a rip off.
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Wow that is really absurd! As many people have said get out of there, find another flight school. I'm currently on my solo consolidation, if my instructor/flying club restricted me to doing full stops I'd definitely take my business else where. For an instructor to hop out of that plane for the first time and say off you go means that he trusts you to be able to cope with everything that is needed within the circuit, including the touch and goes. If they can't trust a student to take up the flaps on a touch and go then really that student shouldn't be flying solo.
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Eh thats not always the case, imagine this scenario. You are on an integrated course, your agreement states that you solo after X number of hours and that you will take your skill test after X hours. Both are minimum numbers, so if you go over you will incur a charge. Its simple economic sense.
When I did my PPL my instructor hopped out of the plane at Immokolee and let me do my touch and goes, I did 5 approaches, 4 T and G's one Go Around and I was in radio contact with him all the time.
When I did my PPL my instructor hopped out of the plane at Immokolee and let me do my touch and goes, I did 5 approaches, 4 T and G's one Go Around and I was in radio contact with him all the time.
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As I understand it; according management, this is a temporary restriction imposed by the H.O.T. for safety reasons while they investigate and remediate several recent incidences of unstabilized approaches during solo T&Gs.
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Wingo, why would you not want to practice touch and go's. I did loads once I got my solo and even more once I was hour building.
Circuit bashing is dammed useful the more you do the eaiser it gets, sure beats just flying from A to B and back again, you might as well do some T&G's especially as it does not cost anything at most US airports. Hell I did loads of night ones with and with out my landing light. There is no skill in just flying straight and level you should try to improve your landing technique every time you fly.
I have no idea why this school have stopped T&G's but I can only imagine it is for safety reasons.
Circuit bashing is dammed useful the more you do the eaiser it gets, sure beats just flying from A to B and back again, you might as well do some T&G's especially as it does not cost anything at most US airports. Hell I did loads of night ones with and with out my landing light. There is no skill in just flying straight and level you should try to improve your landing technique every time you fly.
I have no idea why this school have stopped T&G's but I can only imagine it is for safety reasons.
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Wingo, just trying to help.
As to safety many many flight schools around the world allow students to do touch and go's and some even allow then to go cross country even before they have obtained their PPL's.
IF I was a student here then I would be very concerned I am sure the standard of instructing is fine, but if this is safety related, then is there a problem in the system? If so would I want to train here?
As to safety many many flight schools around the world allow students to do touch and go's and some even allow then to go cross country even before they have obtained their PPL's.
IF I was a student here then I would be very concerned I am sure the standard of instructing is fine, but if this is safety related, then is there a problem in the system? If so would I want to train here?
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At nearly all of the schools I've trained at touch and gos were prohibited before private test completed.
If your school has Cessnas - I believe there has been problems with the Cessna flap switches.
Trust your CFI, and always check your flaps visually. It is almost definitely safety related.
If your school has Cessnas - I believe there has been problems with the Cessna flap switches.
Trust your CFI, and always check your flaps visually. It is almost definitely safety related.
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As another student in the same school at the same airport in this affair I'd like to clarify a couple of things -
1. It is not a money making scam as our integrated course times are Take Off to Landing plus 15 minutes for taxi (which often works out better for us as taxi/hold times can be long). Students who do the full-stop and taxi back can stop the clock so to speak once they've vacated the active i.e. the taxi-back time is not counted as air time. The Hobbs time is only for maintenance use and has nothing to do with this. Yes it's a pain and the days of getting 8-9 landings in a 1 hour solo are gone, but we shouldn't be any worse off financially/flight time.
2. The local German school at the airport do NOT allow touch and go's on solo's either, although they do allow landings at uncontrolled fields whereas our school do not. There's no doubt that the full stop and taxi back would be alot easier at a smaller uncontrolled field than a busy airport. Perhaps this should be raised to them as any pilot with a few brain cells should be just as capible of landing at an uncontrolled field as controlled.
3. There have been a number of instances where aircraft have ran off the runway for a number of reasons, mainly because of bad piloting.
Therefore the school have had to do something, dont you think? It is really unfortunate for the rest of us that a few individuals who are clearly incompetent have ruined it for the rest of us, but sadly thats how life works sometimes.
Perhaps WG100 should discuss their concerns with management at the next weekly senior management meeting with students rather than complaining about it on pprune?
1. It is not a money making scam as our integrated course times are Take Off to Landing plus 15 minutes for taxi (which often works out better for us as taxi/hold times can be long). Students who do the full-stop and taxi back can stop the clock so to speak once they've vacated the active i.e. the taxi-back time is not counted as air time. The Hobbs time is only for maintenance use and has nothing to do with this. Yes it's a pain and the days of getting 8-9 landings in a 1 hour solo are gone, but we shouldn't be any worse off financially/flight time.
2. The local German school at the airport do NOT allow touch and go's on solo's either, although they do allow landings at uncontrolled fields whereas our school do not. There's no doubt that the full stop and taxi back would be alot easier at a smaller uncontrolled field than a busy airport. Perhaps this should be raised to them as any pilot with a few brain cells should be just as capible of landing at an uncontrolled field as controlled.
3. There have been a number of instances where aircraft have ran off the runway for a number of reasons, mainly because of bad piloting.
Therefore the school have had to do something, dont you think? It is really unfortunate for the rest of us that a few individuals who are clearly incompetent have ruined it for the rest of us, but sadly thats how life works sometimes.
Perhaps WG100 should discuss their concerns with management at the next weekly senior management meeting with students rather than complaining about it on pprune?
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Restricted solo-flying in germany is a different thing to the US since we have about 15-25000 flights a day during weekends ( and of course in summertime) in mostly in class G airspace in an area having about the size of upstate NY ( don't blame me for geography 
) just to give you a clue.
It is still possible but you can expect to end up with your first solo a bit later compared to flying in less congested countries.
I had my first solo after the 6th flight and my FTO is doing the practical training in Croatia where you sometimes end up being the only one on the frequency and I don't believe this would have been the case if I conducted that training in a german based practical training.
) just to give you a clue. It is still possible but you can expect to end up with your first solo a bit later compared to flying in less congested countries.
I had my first solo after the 6th flight and my FTO is doing the practical training in Croatia where you sometimes end up being the only one on the frequency and I don't believe this would have been the case if I conducted that training in a german based practical training.
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I think there's a bit of confusion, we're not talking about training in Germany, we're talking about Lufthansa and the GAF's training school which is located on the same airport.
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I'm sorry! It's just getting late...
I just know about a student pilot of LFT crashing(fatal) during a solo flight max. two years or so ago. Was it always the case that no solos were allowed at all by LFT at GY? Not flying solo at least once and doing training on shiny new citation jets sounds a bit paradox to me?!
Doing t/g's solo helped me a lot during my vfr flight training and if the FTO provides strict minima and procedures to be sticked to it's no big deal. Proper qualification has to be insured before by an internal check flight with instructor anyway, dont you think?
just my 2 cents...
I just know about a student pilot of LFT crashing(fatal) during a solo flight max. two years or so ago. Was it always the case that no solos were allowed at all by LFT at GY? Not flying solo at least once and doing training on shiny new citation jets sounds a bit paradox to me?!
Doing t/g's solo helped me a lot during my vfr flight training and if the FTO provides strict minima and procedures to be sticked to it's no big deal. Proper qualification has to be insured before by an internal check flight with instructor anyway, dont you think?
just my 2 cents...
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Solo's were and still are allowed! This post is about allowing solo students to carry out touch and go's, not about allowing students to solo.
You are quite correct about the solo fatality. I believe she crashed shortly after an F-16 passed quite close to her.
You are quite correct about the solo fatality. I believe she crashed shortly after an F-16 passed quite close to her.
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As it is, I was simply enquiring if banning T&Gs was an accepted and commonplace practise, or something that was OTT.
Educated Hillbilly
Big Grecian,
The flap problem you refer to is the fact that the selctor lever often disconnects/ jams from the electric switch. So while the lever is moved to the up position the flaps remain down, as a result a student can get airborne with full flaps at a low airpseed, the switch suddenly un-jams on the climb out the flaps retract and the aircraft stalls.
However Grecian this is not a reason to not do touch and go's, it is possible to visually inspect the flaps during a touch and go, I always train student to select flaps before applying full power to prevent the above occuring.
The flap problem you refer to is the fact that the selctor lever often disconnects/ jams from the electric switch. So while the lever is moved to the up position the flaps remain down, as a result a student can get airborne with full flaps at a low airpseed, the switch suddenly un-jams on the climb out the flaps retract and the aircraft stalls.
However Grecian this is not a reason to not do touch and go's, it is possible to visually inspect the flaps during a touch and go, I always train student to select flaps before applying full power to prevent the above occuring.
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Very intersting! Is there any solution brought up by cessna or the manufacturer of these switches?
Stalling would be possible as well during a go around with the flaps not set correctly, don't you agree? Anyway, don't the lufty guys fly beech 33 at gy?
Stalling would be possible as well during a go around with the flaps not set correctly, don't you agree? Anyway, don't the lufty guys fly beech 33 at gy?
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To clear up the confusion, the school that has temporarily halted solo Touch and Gos appears to be OAT at their Goodyear, AZ training base. They use Piper Warriors for the solo flights. Lufthansa also train cadets at Goodyear, where they use Beechcraft singles.
The posts regarding Cessna's are relevant in the context of the discussion started by wg100 about whether this no solo T&G practice is common or not, but neither of the schools at Goodyear use Cessnas, so a bit of confusion has crept in.
I'm not sure why everyone is so reluctant to name the school, as this is not a slander issue, except maybe for the few who have jumped to the conclusion that greed is behind this rather than safety.
The posts regarding Cessna's are relevant in the context of the discussion started by wg100 about whether this no solo T&G practice is common or not, but neither of the schools at Goodyear use Cessnas, so a bit of confusion has crept in.
I'm not sure why everyone is so reluctant to name the school, as this is not a slander issue, except maybe for the few who have jumped to the conclusion that greed is behind this rather than safety.
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Very pleased
I am very pleased that this is not a money making scam and students are not being ripped off.
It would appear that it is OAT who have imposed this rule and they are one of the more reputable schools.
I think that untill more is known about the reasoning I shall not make further comment apart from saying that first posts on the subject hinted that it was another school who's business practices are not quite as ethical as OAT.
It would appear that it is OAT who have imposed this rule and they are one of the more reputable schools.
I think that untill more is known about the reasoning I shall not make further comment apart from saying that first posts on the subject hinted that it was another school who's business practices are not quite as ethical as OAT.