Thinking of doing ME/IR in Spain, any advice?
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FAA to JAA
Hi Cpt KC
I am sharing the apartment with 2 people who are doing conversions from faa, and they are both testing today, yes there are some differences like in the states flight levels start at 18000 feet, so they have not used QNH, transition alt, transition level etc, obviously goes with out saying its a failure if you forget to change, there are some rather large mountains around the airports here so you can see the importance of getting that correct, from what I here it seems there are a fair few differences between the 2, I will see if I can get one of them to PM you later on today with their thoughts..
All the best
I am sharing the apartment with 2 people who are doing conversions from faa, and they are both testing today, yes there are some differences like in the states flight levels start at 18000 feet, so they have not used QNH, transition alt, transition level etc, obviously goes with out saying its a failure if you forget to change, there are some rather large mountains around the airports here so you can see the importance of getting that correct, from what I here it seems there are a fair few differences between the 2, I will see if I can get one of them to PM you later on today with their thoughts..
All the best
Last edited by bobster1; 23rd Nov 2007 at 14:31.
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The CAA examiners have great concern with Spanish "schools" their direct quote was "they are on borrowed time".
The Spanish schools recently rejected an audit from a CAA panel examiner which has started to get Captain Lander on the case.
My airline laughs at Spanish CV's - which I'm sure you people will argue but that is the fact.
I have a couple of friends in UK FTO's who are now dealing with Spanish IR renewals, and also SIM prep for airline jobs - they can't believe the standard these schools are producing - frankly it's frightening.
£5900 for an IR in Spain
£11000 for an IR in UK
A job - Priceless.
The Spanish schools recently rejected an audit from a CAA panel examiner which has started to get Captain Lander on the case.
My airline laughs at Spanish CV's - which I'm sure you people will argue but that is the fact.
I have a couple of friends in UK FTO's who are now dealing with Spanish IR renewals, and also SIM prep for airline jobs - they can't believe the standard these schools are producing - frankly it's frightening.
£5900 for an IR in Spain
£11000 for an IR in UK
A job - Priceless.
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I have said before you cant tar a whole countrys FTOs´with the same brush.
I have heard many stories re certain companies in Spain, but Aerodynamics Malaga has 1st class training, and others will agree, even the ones who have successfully passed sim checks recently Im sure, its people like you who give the country a bad name because of what you have heard/witnessed from other schools and hear say.
There are good schools in Spain.
most dont
Poor standards on renewal, well thats down to the individual, after a year not flying IR then I would imagine anybody could be a bit rusty. So if that person needed a bit of a refresher, then 10hrs in a FNPT2 at 140 GBP p/h total 1400
Its still a massive saving on UK, whos prices dont normally include A/C for test or test fees, so the cost is considerably more.
As for your friends who are currently dealing with people at there FTOs, it would be more relevant if you found out where these "frighteningly bad" people trained, otherwise its a pointless comment.
What has the CAA got to do with Spanish schools? genuine question
Final word, what about all the currently employed pilots in Spain and around the world who trained in Spain, should they not be in the air?
I have heard many stories re certain companies in Spain, but Aerodynamics Malaga has 1st class training, and others will agree, even the ones who have successfully passed sim checks recently Im sure, its people like you who give the country a bad name because of what you have heard/witnessed from other schools and hear say.
There are good schools in Spain.
My airline laughs at Spanish CV's
most dontPoor standards on renewal, well thats down to the individual, after a year not flying IR then I would imagine anybody could be a bit rusty. So if that person needed a bit of a refresher, then 10hrs in a FNPT2 at 140 GBP p/h total 1400
Its still a massive saving on UK, whos prices dont normally include A/C for test or test fees, so the cost is considerably more.
As for your friends who are currently dealing with people at there FTOs, it would be more relevant if you found out where these "frighteningly bad" people trained, otherwise its a pointless comment.
The CAA examiners have great concern with Spanish "schools" their direct quote was "they are on borrowed time
Final word, what about all the currently employed pilots in Spain and around the world who trained in Spain, should they not be in the air?
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Cheers Bobster
I know a few recent first officers have gone to turbo prop positions straight from Aerodynamics. Word of mouth is that they are good, professional and the JAA sylabus is the same where ever you go, ability of student and quality of instruction makes the difference. I have decided to do the full course with Aerodynamics after coming from the US. There seems to be a few have a go at each other posts, which frankly have nothing to offer the thread. Anyone with first hand expeirence or knows anyone who has done the Aerodynamics please contact me.
Thank you
Cpt KC
Thank you
Cpt KC
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The CAA has the right to refuse to recognise a Spanish licence or rating. The fact that the UK and Spain are both JAA/EASA members does not confer automatic recognition of licences. As bigbadjetdriver says, this is already a matter of concern at the CAA.
A few years back the CAA was refusing to recognise Spanish engineers licences.
A few years back the CAA was refusing to recognise Spanish engineers licences.
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Alex - according to the advice I have been given, that is the case and in fact I am told the Dutch are already doing so.
Of course, it can only be regarded as "fully JAR compliant" if the standards of training an examining meet those required by JAR-FCL.
Of course, it can only be regarded as "fully JAR compliant" if the standards of training an examining meet those required by JAR-FCL.
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Go South to save money
What is needed is an international method of organising civil aviation in such a way that standards are universal.
Of course we all realise that the truth that dare not speak its name in all this is that a lot of this is "vested interest dressed up as a safety concern"
We are after all talking very seriously about jobs here (Belgrano included)
My own view is that Spain in becoming the Florida of Europe and many will elect to go South to save money.
One question: do Spanish airline pilots train in Spain and is the safety record good? Answer: Yes and Yes
Of course we all realise that the truth that dare not speak its name in all this is that a lot of this is "vested interest dressed up as a safety concern"
We are after all talking very seriously about jobs here (Belgrano included)
My own view is that Spain in becoming the Florida of Europe and many will elect to go South to save money.
One question: do Spanish airline pilots train in Spain and is the safety record good? Answer: Yes and Yes
Last edited by RVR800; 29th Nov 2007 at 10:15. Reason: Readibility
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Whilst attending full time ground school, one of the instructors commented that it was wise to do CPL in the UK and IR at one of the better schools in Spain ie FTE or Aerodynamics, reason being because of the huge amount of money saved.
Saying its rare for people to walk out of training and into an airline job, therfore the money saved will cover the cost of doing the FI rating.
Then it becomes not a matter of where you have trained but the hours you have gained after finishing training.
I have a friend on his type rating course for FR, who did his IR in Spain, also on his course and other courses of recent have been OAT Integrated students, highlighting the fact that spending considerably more money for UK training at one of the top schools does not guarantee you a job.
Who is the wise one? and what is the future of flight training in the UK? VAT on training, extortionate fuel costs and the CAA fees well how they can justify them is beyond me, yet again the UK is crippling one of its own industries and people are investing there money abroad.
Saying its rare for people to walk out of training and into an airline job, therfore the money saved will cover the cost of doing the FI rating.
Then it becomes not a matter of where you have trained but the hours you have gained after finishing training.
I have a friend on his type rating course for FR, who did his IR in Spain, also on his course and other courses of recent have been OAT Integrated students, highlighting the fact that spending considerably more money for UK training at one of the top schools does not guarantee you a job.
Who is the wise one? and what is the future of flight training in the UK? VAT on training, extortionate fuel costs and the CAA fees well how they can justify them is beyond me, yet again the UK is crippling one of its own industries and people are investing there money abroad.
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I have a Spanish ME/IR, completed at Aerodynamics Malaga and want to give an unbiased view.
IMO as a school A.M. is a good school, has a good sim and sticks to their prices as published, but there are problems.
Most of the sim instructors dont actually hold ME/IR's, and through some bizarre loop can instruct in the sim as part of some form of intergrated course they are part of. There is a fair mish-mash of instruction given through the sim part which can be conflicting.
Once I reached the a/c, there were 2 instructors. One was good but worked to death and fell asleep a couple of times during the flights. The other is extremely arrogant and IMO was a classic example of the reason CRM was introduced.
There is a big thread on A.M. which shows the good and bad, but as a whole I dont regret the decision to train with them. They were good value for money and refreshingly stuck to the quoted price for the course.
Now for the big problem with Spanish IR's from my perspective. I believe with the training received from a Spanish FTO and with alot of self study on rant and study of various books that I'm a competant IR pilot and deserved to pass the test. However I have back seated IR skill tests during my training and witnessed some shocking errors during the test and a pass still awarded and I personally did not have to demonstrate any NDB work at all.
IMO you can be a good IR pilot trained under the Spanish system, but you can also be to a low standard and still slip through, which contributes to the poor reputataion of Spanish IR's.
When I sat the interview for my first jet job as a low hour pilot, which I got, the interviewer (who was a senior captain) didn't either know or care about the fact it was a spanish IR, it was JAA and that was that. I had a tough sim check with the company and had to demonstrate the same skills that a UK trained IR pilot had, or an FAA + JAR conversion pilot had to demonstrate.
Good luck with whichever path you choose!
IMO as a school A.M. is a good school, has a good sim and sticks to their prices as published, but there are problems.
Most of the sim instructors dont actually hold ME/IR's, and through some bizarre loop can instruct in the sim as part of some form of intergrated course they are part of. There is a fair mish-mash of instruction given through the sim part which can be conflicting.
Once I reached the a/c, there were 2 instructors. One was good but worked to death and fell asleep a couple of times during the flights. The other is extremely arrogant and IMO was a classic example of the reason CRM was introduced.
There is a big thread on A.M. which shows the good and bad, but as a whole I dont regret the decision to train with them. They were good value for money and refreshingly stuck to the quoted price for the course.
Now for the big problem with Spanish IR's from my perspective. I believe with the training received from a Spanish FTO and with alot of self study on rant and study of various books that I'm a competant IR pilot and deserved to pass the test. However I have back seated IR skill tests during my training and witnessed some shocking errors during the test and a pass still awarded and I personally did not have to demonstrate any NDB work at all.
IMO you can be a good IR pilot trained under the Spanish system, but you can also be to a low standard and still slip through, which contributes to the poor reputataion of Spanish IR's.
When I sat the interview for my first jet job as a low hour pilot, which I got, the interviewer (who was a senior captain) didn't either know or care about the fact it was a spanish IR, it was JAA and that was that. I had a tough sim check with the company and had to demonstrate the same skills that a UK trained IR pilot had, or an FAA + JAR conversion pilot had to demonstrate.
Good luck with whichever path you choose!
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Most of the sim instructors dont actually hold ME/IR's, and through some bizarre loop can instruct in the sim
1 failed interview recently with FR and another has progressed through 1st stage of selection with a Spanish airline but cant remember company he said.
I will feedback when I start in aircraft on monday, not heard any bad stories from the couple of UK/Eire guys that are on this phase already.
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I finished in May, to be fair alot of their experienced instructors had left very recently (off the top of my head to Kingfisher) so I was left with relatively inexperienced instructors, this situation hopefully (and by the sounds of things) has improved which is good to hear as I would recommend the school.
However I can only tell what my actual experience at the time was, the A.M. thread would be a better place to judge how things currently are.
However I can only tell what my actual experience at the time was, the A.M. thread would be a better place to judge how things currently are.
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Just had checkride there today, did the 15 Hour Conversion Course, and have to say I am very happy with the school.
its the first school I have been to where I have known the plan, you get a course folder on day one that lays out the ground school you do, the 7sim sessions and the 2 training flights, so you can go home study the lesson plan and approch plates the day before, even fly them on FS2004 like I did to be familier, I had my flights schedualed after my room mates and so we sat and flew the sim together to moniter to get extra pointers and that was well worth doing as your SA is much better when just watching and so you can apply what you learn in your own sim session much better.
the Duchess was tech when I was to start flying so I switched to the Seneca Turbo for an extra 155euros instead of waiting 3 or 4 days for the duchess to be up and running again and so flew with just 1 day break from the sim, finished training on the friday and did the test Tuesday as no tests over the weekend.
the normal examinor was off ill so they flew in a guy from Madrid who was a great guy, ex military I belive and plenty of experiance, went up did the business and landed,,, have to say that after the training and doing the MCC the two weeks before this i felt the sharpest I have ever been flying and I think this has a lot to do with the way the training is layed out from day one.
My reccomendation is go there, its a good school who has there S*** together and apart from the aircraft upgrade I paid the price quoted! very happy.
its the first school I have been to where I have known the plan, you get a course folder on day one that lays out the ground school you do, the 7sim sessions and the 2 training flights, so you can go home study the lesson plan and approch plates the day before, even fly them on FS2004 like I did to be familier, I had my flights schedualed after my room mates and so we sat and flew the sim together to moniter to get extra pointers and that was well worth doing as your SA is much better when just watching and so you can apply what you learn in your own sim session much better.
the Duchess was tech when I was to start flying so I switched to the Seneca Turbo for an extra 155euros instead of waiting 3 or 4 days for the duchess to be up and running again and so flew with just 1 day break from the sim, finished training on the friday and did the test Tuesday as no tests over the weekend.
the normal examinor was off ill so they flew in a guy from Madrid who was a great guy, ex military I belive and plenty of experiance, went up did the business and landed,,, have to say that after the training and doing the MCC the two weeks before this i felt the sharpest I have ever been flying and I think this has a lot to do with the way the training is layed out from day one.
My reccomendation is go there, its a good school who has there S*** together and apart from the aircraft upgrade I paid the price quoted! very happy.
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A friend of mine went to Spain and he had no problems. He saved a shed load of cash and is now spending his money on building hours ME solo rather that flying round NDB holds for hours.
When will NDBs be removed in the UK as I know many have gone in the US already?
When will NDBs be removed in the UK as I know many have gone in the US already?
