Is modular that much better?
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Is modular that much better?
I have just been accepted onto the Oxford course (yes another one!). Anyway, it seems to me that whenever Oxford comes up as a subject people immediately brings up the money matters and suggests modular route straight away.
Now my point is, since so many people are relating to modular, is it actually that much better compared with an integrated course or is it just the cost? People seem to continiously regard integrated pilots as people who don't know the trade compared with a modular pilot who may have the same amount of hours.
I personally think that if I just focus on the task and do well in all the tests then I am just as competent as any other pilot. Paying the extra money in my opinion is to take advantage of the facilities and guidance from exprienced personel. Surely, I have not made the wrong decision in wanting to go to Oxford right?
Now my point is, since so many people are relating to modular, is it actually that much better compared with an integrated course or is it just the cost? People seem to continiously regard integrated pilots as people who don't know the trade compared with a modular pilot who may have the same amount of hours.
I personally think that if I just focus on the task and do well in all the tests then I am just as competent as any other pilot. Paying the extra money in my opinion is to take advantage of the facilities and guidance from exprienced personel. Surely, I have not made the wrong decision in wanting to go to Oxford right?
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It depends what is better for you. For me, I don't have £60k to lay out instantly (or over 2 years) so modular better for me!
For you-only you can answer that. All I will say is don't be sucked in by the clever marketing tactics. True, integrated does get you there faster, but once you are out in the job market it's dog eat dog!
Don't be as naive as some I have seen, and talked to, thinking they will get straight into an airline flight deck after training at Oxford-some will but many won't. Be realistic!
Bri
For you-only you can answer that. All I will say is don't be sucked in by the clever marketing tactics. True, integrated does get you there faster, but once you are out in the job market it's dog eat dog!
Don't be as naive as some I have seen, and talked to, thinking they will get straight into an airline flight deck after training at Oxford-some will but many won't. Be realistic!
Bri
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bri1980, I totally agree with your comment. That cockpit job will definetly not come straight to me but the reason I have chosen Oxford is because of the help that they provide.
Just like they say in CRM, utilise all resources!
After graduating from Oxford I would never think I was better nor worse than anyone else. That's my personal approach anyway!
Just like they say in CRM, utilise all resources!
After graduating from Oxford I would never think I was better nor worse than anyone else. That's my personal approach anyway!
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But is the help that they provide really all that effective? I'm not convinced as an outsider who knows a few of their graduates-ones who have jobs and ones who don't.
If I had the cash I'd probably go to one of the integrated schools myself for the reasons you have given.
At least on the modular path I can take on my CPL as a personal achievement, and not have to worry about paying a huge loan back. Thats my logic.
B
Yes please!
If I had the cash I'd probably go to one of the integrated schools myself for the reasons you have given.
At least on the modular path I can take on my CPL as a personal achievement, and not have to worry about paying a huge loan back. Thats my logic.
B
Originally Posted by maxdrypower
Am I getting deja-vu or here , merged ad nauseum springs to mind
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Well while working at the airport, I have spoken to quite a few pilots and conincidentally, they graduated from Oxford. I asked them about the training and the course overall and they all admitted that the help they got from Oxford did lead them in the right direction.
I suppose they did work hard themselves but from that evidence, I am convinced the help is worthwhile.
I suppose they did work hard themselves but from that evidence, I am convinced the help is worthwhile.
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Is it worth the £30k you are paying for it over the modular route though?
If you have got in at Oxford recently ask to be considered for the NetJets scheme that has just started!
B
If you have got in at Oxford recently ask to be considered for the NetJets scheme that has just started!
B
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As a captain of a jet airliner I find the modular guys are generaly slightly better at hand flying and more balanced pilots overall, this leads me to question the wisdom of parting with £30,000 more for what adds up to a job placement.
If you all dug your heals in and went modular the airline industry would be forced to recrute in the traditional way rather than having the OAT or Cabair force feed them and you young hopefulls would be £30,000 better off!
If you all dug your heals in and went modular the airline industry would be forced to recrute in the traditional way rather than having the OAT or Cabair force feed them and you young hopefulls would be £30,000 better off!
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If I was on the NetJets scheme then I'd be happy to pay the £30k just for the job at the end of it.
I don't have £70k so I'm not even going to apply. So I'll keep my head down and keep saving, I don't want too much debt after seeing the pays some instructors/pilots are getting.
Horses for courses.
I don't have £70k so I'm not even going to apply. So I'll keep my head down and keep saving, I don't want too much debt after seeing the pays some instructors/pilots are getting.
Horses for courses.
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My point exactly. I'm happy to pay for it modular over a number of years-indeed I'm proud to go modular. To achieve it all because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay off the debt.
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The risk of failure (to get a well paying job) is also significant. In some cases, new pilots could have crippling debt for most of their adult life.
Risk is calculated by the cost of the consequences of a particular bad outcome multiplied by the chance of that outcome occurring. By going integrated you may be reducing the risk of failure, but you're also magnifying the financial consequences if that failure occurs.
Risk management is what aviation is all about.
"Return on investment" is also why, in the current industry environment, I've decided not to pursue an aviation career. In my judgement, it doesn't have sufficient return on investment to warrant a change from my current career (and I've already completed my training). That's not to say that it might not offer sufficient "return on investment" for others.
I wish you well in your decision making.
Risk is calculated by the cost of the consequences of a particular bad outcome multiplied by the chance of that outcome occurring. By going integrated you may be reducing the risk of failure, but you're also magnifying the financial consequences if that failure occurs.
Risk management is what aviation is all about.
"Return on investment" is also why, in the current industry environment, I've decided not to pursue an aviation career. In my judgement, it doesn't have sufficient return on investment to warrant a change from my current career (and I've already completed my training). That's not to say that it might not offer sufficient "return on investment" for others.
I wish you well in your decision making.
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Despite what Oxford tell people, not everybody ends up at BA.
I work for a large low cost operator flying 737-800s. I have met a few Oxford modular chaps there and some Oxford integrated chaps as well. The modular chaps do the same job, have the same career prospects and are 30k better off.
I work for a large low cost operator flying 737-800s. I have met a few Oxford modular chaps there and some Oxford integrated chaps as well. The modular chaps do the same job, have the same career prospects and are 30k better off.
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from what i have read on the comments. this discussion is heading in the direction of what i anticipted from the beginning. it all leads to thr saving in money.
is there an actual reason for why the cost is so much less when the training or amount of flying is the same? is it just due to the time scale?
for me, i still think integrated is the way i would like to train because thats the way i learn best, to a schdule. that wouldn't make me a worse pilot would it?
is there an actual reason for why the cost is so much less when the training or amount of flying is the same? is it just due to the time scale?
for me, i still think integrated is the way i would like to train because thats the way i learn best, to a schdule. that wouldn't make me a worse pilot would it?
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Remember also, that as this forum is the worlds single biggest internet focal point for pilot training discussions and so will be read regularly by the managers and marketing professionals from the big integrated schools, they're sales pitches will be directly aimed at allaying all the anti-integrated views and comments. This site is in effect the arch enemy of their business model.
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Pilot Mike,
I stand corrected! That is a seriously impressive rate of progress: if only I had the cash to be able to do that!
As you said-and I said right at the start-take the route that suits you and your circumstances best.
Bri
I stand corrected! That is a seriously impressive rate of progress: if only I had the cash to be able to do that!
As you said-and I said right at the start-take the route that suits you and your circumstances best.
Bri
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A and C is right when he says that you are paying the additional 30,000 pounds for what adds up to a job placement.
I would like to ask OAT students where they think the additional 30k goes?
It does not go on your training, the majoirty of the training is done in the US, where the cost of running aircraft is about half the cost of the UK.
It does not go on instructor wages, I know that OAT instructors are paid more than instructors at other flying schools, but not 30,000pounds per student more.
It does not go on advertising and marketing, whilst they advertise and market more than other training organisations they do not spend 30000pounds on advertising per student.
It must go somewhere.....................
Now hows this for a theory. I stress at the start that I am not making any accusations against integrated course providers or anyone else and that what I am about to say is pure speculation of somebody with a cynical mind.
Could it be possible that an integrated course provider might use some of the money they get from students to give "back-handers" to somebody at their "partner airlines" in return for getting students interviews?
Think about it, lets say that of the 30k extra one of their students pays for the course the school pays somebody important at airlineX say 5k to "influence" recruitment policy to get interviews and the odd job for the school's students.
Everyone is a winner.
The school still has 25k left to pocket and it can say "we get our students interviews at airlineX..." and thus get more people to cough up their extortionate fees. The guy at airlineX gets is onto a very nice little earner as the students flow through his doors and the students think they are winners because they have got interviews at airlineX!
It would be a virtuous circle from which everyone seems to benefit.
"Ahh dont be rediculous" I hear you say "airlineX and integrated course providers are too reputalbe for such skullduggery to go on!"
Don't bank on it, we live in a dirty and corrupt world and where large sums of money are at stake all sorts of corruption can take place, even in so called reputable organisations such as airlines and flying schools.
My theory would explain a number of things, such as where the additional cost charged to integrated students goes, and why airlines are prepared to take completely inexperienced people on with less than 200 hrs total and 50hrs solo flying time, whilst knocking back vastly more experienced pilots.
These are all just thoughts however and I stress again that I am making no allegations against anybody. I just love a good conspiracy theory.
If such a scam were taking place it would surely be one of the most diabolical things ever to have happened to aviation, with hundreds of people having been fleeced of their cash.
Alpha Male, you say "If I was on the NetJets scheme then I'd be happy to pay the £30k just for the job at the end of it."
Why do you think it is ok to essentially pay for a job? This attitude is typical of a number integrated students who think they can take a shortcut by essentially buying their way to a job. If you want a pilot job then why not work hard and get one, instead of trying to beat someone else to the rhs just because you have more money than them.
I would like to ask OAT students where they think the additional 30k goes?
It does not go on your training, the majoirty of the training is done in the US, where the cost of running aircraft is about half the cost of the UK.
It does not go on instructor wages, I know that OAT instructors are paid more than instructors at other flying schools, but not 30,000pounds per student more.
It does not go on advertising and marketing, whilst they advertise and market more than other training organisations they do not spend 30000pounds on advertising per student.
It must go somewhere.....................
Now hows this for a theory. I stress at the start that I am not making any accusations against integrated course providers or anyone else and that what I am about to say is pure speculation of somebody with a cynical mind.
Could it be possible that an integrated course provider might use some of the money they get from students to give "back-handers" to somebody at their "partner airlines" in return for getting students interviews?
Think about it, lets say that of the 30k extra one of their students pays for the course the school pays somebody important at airlineX say 5k to "influence" recruitment policy to get interviews and the odd job for the school's students.
Everyone is a winner.
The school still has 25k left to pocket and it can say "we get our students interviews at airlineX..." and thus get more people to cough up their extortionate fees. The guy at airlineX gets is onto a very nice little earner as the students flow through his doors and the students think they are winners because they have got interviews at airlineX!
It would be a virtuous circle from which everyone seems to benefit.
"Ahh dont be rediculous" I hear you say "airlineX and integrated course providers are too reputalbe for such skullduggery to go on!"
Don't bank on it, we live in a dirty and corrupt world and where large sums of money are at stake all sorts of corruption can take place, even in so called reputable organisations such as airlines and flying schools.
My theory would explain a number of things, such as where the additional cost charged to integrated students goes, and why airlines are prepared to take completely inexperienced people on with less than 200 hrs total and 50hrs solo flying time, whilst knocking back vastly more experienced pilots.
These are all just thoughts however and I stress again that I am making no allegations against anybody. I just love a good conspiracy theory.
If such a scam were taking place it would surely be one of the most diabolical things ever to have happened to aviation, with hundreds of people having been fleeced of their cash.
Alpha Male, you say "If I was on the NetJets scheme then I'd be happy to pay the £30k just for the job at the end of it."
Why do you think it is ok to essentially pay for a job? This attitude is typical of a number integrated students who think they can take a shortcut by essentially buying their way to a job. If you want a pilot job then why not work hard and get one, instead of trying to beat someone else to the rhs just because you have more money than them.