Use of GPS for too long and now doing CPL
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Use of GPS for too long and now doing CPL
I have been flying the magenta line virtualy since I completed my ppl and now I'm going for the CPL. Lets say I have not used my hour building wisely and have used GPS for long trips and jolly's with my mates here and there.
Now I am dreading the cross country nav ex's and diversions in the CPL as I haven't used a map, protractor, ruler and pencil for yonks.
Anyone else done the same and found it hard going back to pilotage and dead reckoning? I'm dreading it!!!
Now I am dreading the cross country nav ex's and diversions in the CPL as I haven't used a map, protractor, ruler and pencil for yonks.
Anyone else done the same and found it hard going back to pilotage and dead reckoning? I'm dreading it!!!
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Yes, I'm in the same boat. Planning to do a few pre-CPL lessons to
sharpen up. Also will need to wean off the GPS security blanket. I've
heard secret envelope diversions is a good solo training tool.
sharpen up. Also will need to wean off the GPS security blanket. I've
heard secret envelope diversions is a good solo training tool.
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interesting what you say guys!
who has suggested you to use a GPS for your flights, and when did you start to use the GPS and why?
in my life I used a portable gps only maybe on 5-10 routes as a backup, but I always use normal VOR airways as primary navigation, the GPS is very helpful for Groundspeed and ETA.I think the GPS is kind of boring specially when you are cruising for hours.
I think you can plan some flight on a PC simulator between airports, to make yourself confortable. put some cross wind and see by yourself, if you can still fly.
I use a car GPS, and I love it!
who has suggested you to use a GPS for your flights, and when did you start to use the GPS and why?
in my life I used a portable gps only maybe on 5-10 routes as a backup, but I always use normal VOR airways as primary navigation, the GPS is very helpful for Groundspeed and ETA.I think the GPS is kind of boring specially when you are cruising for hours.
I think you can plan some flight on a PC simulator between airports, to make yourself confortable. put some cross wind and see by yourself, if you can still fly.
I use a car GPS, and I love it!
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Hmmm I hope to start cpl stuff next year . I have access to a g1000 cessna and I must admit it is so much easier to fly that than the analogue aircraft especially on long trips . A hhabit I need to get out of methinks
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I haven't used a map, protractor, ruler and pencil for yonks.
Anyway, best thing to do is get up there and do some short trips with some diversions. Gradually make the trips more difficult and carry the GPS in case the worse happens. Or take a PPL instructor up and get him to give you some tips and retraining. You could just wait to get retaught by your CPL instructor but it will cost big wedge that way. Also get your PPL Nav book out and read up, the concept of VFR flying doesn't change.
Remember, pilots don't get lost we just become temporarily unsure of position.
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Depending on how long you have before you start your CPL you could pop into the school that you intend to train at and ask one of the instructors to sit down with you for an hour and talk you through how they teach the nav ex's. Most good instructors will have some sort of rules of thumb that they use eg: x miles per minute as a g/s, your thumb represents 10nm on a chart, drift correction etc etc. Some might have you using the 1 in 60 rule. Others might have little laminated "cheat cards" with g/s, drift, time, which can go onto your kneeboard.
Also have a look over the Navigation book of the Trevor Thom manual for a bit of the theory.
The best bit of kit I ever brought was one of these:
http://www.transair.co.uk/product4.a...Product_ID=978
Great for the VOR fixes that you will be asked to do as well as for diversions.
Also have a look over the Navigation book of the Trevor Thom manual for a bit of the theory.
The best bit of kit I ever brought was one of these:
http://www.transair.co.uk/product4.a...Product_ID=978
Great for the VOR fixes that you will be asked to do as well as for diversions.
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In addition to my slightly 'tounge in cheek' reply.
Clock, map, ground ........ basics basics basics. As long as the route is well planned, well studied and correctly annotated on the map (chart if you wish) then you need to stick to those three basics as any track error will very quickly become apparent.
One of the biggest mistakes I see is that people try to pick small, indistinguishable ground features as turning points. Take a tip from the military here, to start off use great big ones if possible with vertical extent if they've got it. Then wean yourself onto progressively smaller and smaller turning points. The CAA examiner might not be so kind as to give you a thumping great power station as a turn point.
Finally, practice. It's not as frightening as you might imagine and can turn out to be good fun.
Good luck
W2P
Clock, map, ground ........ basics basics basics. As long as the route is well planned, well studied and correctly annotated on the map (chart if you wish) then you need to stick to those three basics as any track error will very quickly become apparent.
One of the biggest mistakes I see is that people try to pick small, indistinguishable ground features as turning points. Take a tip from the military here, to start off use great big ones if possible with vertical extent if they've got it. Then wean yourself onto progressively smaller and smaller turning points. The CAA examiner might not be so kind as to give you a thumping great power station as a turn point.
Finally, practice. It's not as frightening as you might imagine and can turn out to be good fun.
Good luck
W2P
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On the other hand, he might give you th biggest feature in the whole of southern england to turn at.
You think, quids in!!!!
And you fail to realise the implications of the feature being located under the edge of bristol ctr or birmingham's ctr.
So off you go bimbling towards this feature which you can see from 20 miles away, using the regional qnh for terain clearence like any sensible pilot.
Just as you get towards the feature the examiner takes control does a 180degree turn and says you have failed the nav section!
You think, quids in!!!!
And you fail to realise the implications of the feature being located under the edge of bristol ctr or birmingham's ctr.
So off you go bimbling towards this feature which you can see from 20 miles away, using the regional qnh for terain clearence like any sensible pilot.
Just as you get towards the feature the examiner takes control does a 180degree turn and says you have failed the nav section!
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See the first point about being 'well planned and well studied'.
Pick a point in a CTA or Restricted area and you've blown the whole thing. The more you do on the ground the less you'll have to shock you in the air. Quite simple really.
Whats wrong with flying into a CTA as long as you have approval to do so anyway? Just another radio call
Take life easy.
See you all later, off to Rome for the day
Pick a point in a CTA or Restricted area and you've blown the whole thing. The more you do on the ground the less you'll have to shock you in the air. Quite simple really.
Whats wrong with flying into a CTA as long as you have approval to do so anyway? Just another radio call
Take life easy.
See you all later, off to Rome for the day
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I used to teach PPLs coming from GPS bashing to start CPL training. It was a nightmare! Like teaching someone from scratch all over again. No idea whatsoever of how to dead reckon properly, they had just been used to following 'the line', so the accurate flying that was required just went straight out the window. No idea how to do a proper diversion, ETA etc etc! This inevitably resulted in more time to complete the syllabus, costing them more money in the process. The ones who used their chart, clock and eyes always found the course easier, as they had the spare mental capacity to cope with the rest of it.
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wobble2plank
noting wrong with flying into a ctr or cta as long as you have clearence, but if you fly under a ctr and fail to set the QNH for that zone it could be a problem, escpecially if you have been asked to remain clear, or you are not talking to them.
Happened to a mate of mine flying from bournemouth. Went to a lake near bristol for his cpl test. Didnt even think about the bristol zone qnh. The CAAFU examiner failed his nav. He didnt bust bristol, but because he didnt have the bristol QNH set on at least his secondary altimeter he didnt definitively know whether he was inside or outside the zone. CAAFU examiner said as a commercial candidate, this should have been at the forefront of his mind!
noting wrong with flying into a ctr or cta as long as you have clearence, but if you fly under a ctr and fail to set the QNH for that zone it could be a problem, escpecially if you have been asked to remain clear, or you are not talking to them.
Happened to a mate of mine flying from bournemouth. Went to a lake near bristol for his cpl test. Didnt even think about the bristol zone qnh. The CAAFU examiner failed his nav. He didnt bust bristol, but because he didnt have the bristol QNH set on at least his secondary altimeter he didnt definitively know whether he was inside or outside the zone. CAAFU examiner said as a commercial candidate, this should have been at the forefront of his mind!
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Work out a drift heading and fly it comparing with the gps how far off track you become. With a good heading, accurate DI and regular FREDA checks you will be amazed how in most instances you are close to, or on track. It will build up confidence in your direction keeping for when, mainly in the EDI zone for some reason, your GPS coverage drops out! Or for your CPL test when it gets taken away from you anyway.
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Mercenary PIlot
It's called a "chart" and you don't want to be shouting that to loudly because its an offence not to carry one.
I have been practicing max drift, wind angles, ground speed etc on the rant tutorial and also various rules of thumb. Also have done a few practice routes recently and found the cockpit management pretty hard, especially planning the diversion whilst maintaining altitude, usually find my destinations and divesion points ok but realise I've gained 200ft in planning the diversion.
Thanks for the tips guys, will take the C150 up next week and practice more.
Do stuff that I should have been doing in my hour building instead of jolly's with my mates.
Last edited by smith; 30th Aug 2007 at 22:53.
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who has suggested you to use a GPS for your flights, and when did you start to use the GPS and why?
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The difference between the PPL and the CPL is that the PPL flies for fun/no financial gain. The PPL holder will 'get away' with the occasional airspace breach with a CAA slap on the wrist or an ATC shrug.
The CPL/ATPL pilot is, generally, not so lucky. They fly for financial gain/recompense therefore they are, quite rightly, expected by ATC to be ahead of the game and up to speed in respect to navigation and airspace awareness. That is not to say that the CPL/ATPL holder is immune to cock ups, I know I certainly am not, it's just that there is far more at stake if you do cock up in a major way.
The CAA examiner was quite right to fail your mate on the Nav for that unless your mate positively vocalised his awareness of the close proximity of controlled airspace. You have to remember the examiner can't see inside your head and if you don't tell him what your doing and what your thinking then he can't second guess and will generally draw the worst conclusion. Most guys are there to pass you, but you do need to help them. It's the same in the airline world, there is nothing worse than sitting next to the other pilot when it's their approach thinking 'what the hell is he/she doing now?' Vocalise and share the mental model, that will help you alot.
Finally relax, chill out and enjoy.
W2P
p.s. Rome was lovely
The CPL/ATPL pilot is, generally, not so lucky. They fly for financial gain/recompense therefore they are, quite rightly, expected by ATC to be ahead of the game and up to speed in respect to navigation and airspace awareness. That is not to say that the CPL/ATPL holder is immune to cock ups, I know I certainly am not, it's just that there is far more at stake if you do cock up in a major way.
The CAA examiner was quite right to fail your mate on the Nav for that unless your mate positively vocalised his awareness of the close proximity of controlled airspace. You have to remember the examiner can't see inside your head and if you don't tell him what your doing and what your thinking then he can't second guess and will generally draw the worst conclusion. Most guys are there to pass you, but you do need to help them. It's the same in the airline world, there is nothing worse than sitting next to the other pilot when it's their approach thinking 'what the hell is he/she doing now?' Vocalise and share the mental model, that will help you alot.
Finally relax, chill out and enjoy.
W2P
p.s. Rome was lovely
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Hi guys, haven't posted here in many months. Well I did my multi-ir and still had 30hrs PIC time before doing my CPL, which I am currently doing. I realised that I needed to keep it really simple in order to have time to fly the plane and watch headings, altitude and have good situational awareness. ( because I am really stupid once in the cockpit, sometimes 2+2 becomes complicated!!)Plan the 1st leg as you would for a test, pick good features etc. I decided to pick less waypoints, spaced anything from 10 to 20nm apart. Usually, on test day, you will plan to an airport and after your first few waypoints have been reached you will be diverted. I use fan lines for the 1st planned leg and if I see that I am off track, note the time it took me from the start of the nav ( or the previous waypoint in a straight line) and correct by twice the error for the same amount of time to get me back on track then re-adjust drift correction.
For the diversion, keep it really simple. locate your diversion point on the map. Draw your line. work out heading fast! I use vortrack ruler, place it on the line and read heading, add variation and turn. Do not wait, the examiner will like to see you turn in the general direction quickly. Then adjust for drift useing max drift formula and 1/4, 1/2,or3/4 of that figure. ( you can work out max drift on the ground before you go, it takes two seconds) also now you can measure distance, work out g/s with the known wind, again use a rule of thumb( ie 15kt wind, coming at you from within 20dgs either side of the nose, use full headwind-so take 15kts from indicated speed or known cruise speed) Give examiner an eta. It will be quite accurate. Look for good land marks on the way, make sure you remain on track. Find a 1/2 way point. Note the time when you reach it. Double that time elapsed and revise your eta if necessary. All quick and simple, I WILL NOT HAVE A CRP IN THE COCKPIT. And use lots of simple common sense, and good airmanship, that's what they want. Be ahead of the situation, have frequencies pre-tuned, Atis etc. ..................and I'll let you know how it goes. I flight planned a route in my car in 10mins, used those really basic points and the eta's were all within 1 minute and headings and correction estimated did not have to be altered. I was very happy and it does work, most importantly I had time to look outside and keep track of where I was heading and what was along the way. Nothing worse than being busy for a while, then looking out and going " I wonder which town that is, it could be this or it could be that!" ............can't wait to finish up!
For the diversion, keep it really simple. locate your diversion point on the map. Draw your line. work out heading fast! I use vortrack ruler, place it on the line and read heading, add variation and turn. Do not wait, the examiner will like to see you turn in the general direction quickly. Then adjust for drift useing max drift formula and 1/4, 1/2,or3/4 of that figure. ( you can work out max drift on the ground before you go, it takes two seconds) also now you can measure distance, work out g/s with the known wind, again use a rule of thumb( ie 15kt wind, coming at you from within 20dgs either side of the nose, use full headwind-so take 15kts from indicated speed or known cruise speed) Give examiner an eta. It will be quite accurate. Look for good land marks on the way, make sure you remain on track. Find a 1/2 way point. Note the time when you reach it. Double that time elapsed and revise your eta if necessary. All quick and simple, I WILL NOT HAVE A CRP IN THE COCKPIT. And use lots of simple common sense, and good airmanship, that's what they want. Be ahead of the situation, have frequencies pre-tuned, Atis etc. ..................and I'll let you know how it goes. I flight planned a route in my car in 10mins, used those really basic points and the eta's were all within 1 minute and headings and correction estimated did not have to be altered. I was very happy and it does work, most importantly I had time to look outside and keep track of where I was heading and what was along the way. Nothing worse than being busy for a while, then looking out and going " I wonder which town that is, it could be this or it could be that!" ............can't wait to finish up!
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Maybe I am just weird but I never use the GPS. I guess I would turn it on if I got properly lost. Personally I really enjoy the navigation. It keeps you sharper and when that diversion comes into play then it's invaluable to know what your doing (imagine its a really bad day and the GPS also doesn't want to help you).
My favourite piece of equipment for diversions is the wind protractor. It's incredibly easy to use you obtain track and time very quickly corrected for the wind no less (provided you know the wind to begin with- which you should do!). I keep this little gem in my knee-board folder with two pencils both of which are marked at 10nm invervals for the chart scale I am using (that's a "just in case" thing and has bugger all to do with the wind protractor...obviously the pencils primary role is to make a dot). Its also fun to practice without any additonal equipment (except the chart!) - just to see how close I am.
I really recommend practicing diversions. It will save you such a headache when you have to do one for real. I routinely do these and the day I had to divert it wasn't a big deal. I have also delibertly flown to my routine alternate airports (as listed on my flight plan) just to ease the work load on arrival since it's much nicer to have a better idea what to look for/ know you surroundings in the event that you have to use them.
Polishing good nav skills is priceless (for eveything else there's.....).
I once heard on the radio: "My GPS failed. I am lost!". Mmm...
LG
My favourite piece of equipment for diversions is the wind protractor. It's incredibly easy to use you obtain track and time very quickly corrected for the wind no less (provided you know the wind to begin with- which you should do!). I keep this little gem in my knee-board folder with two pencils both of which are marked at 10nm invervals for the chart scale I am using (that's a "just in case" thing and has bugger all to do with the wind protractor...obviously the pencils primary role is to make a dot). Its also fun to practice without any additonal equipment (except the chart!) - just to see how close I am.
I really recommend practicing diversions. It will save you such a headache when you have to do one for real. I routinely do these and the day I had to divert it wasn't a big deal. I have also delibertly flown to my routine alternate airports (as listed on my flight plan) just to ease the work load on arrival since it's much nicer to have a better idea what to look for/ know you surroundings in the event that you have to use them.
Polishing good nav skills is priceless (for eveything else there's.....).
I once heard on the radio: "My GPS failed. I am lost!". Mmm...
LG
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powdermonkey's method is exactly the same as mine. It's important to remain calm and break it down into easily manageable chunks so you don't get overwhelmed and you can keep everything really simple, then just practice and the nav gets easier and easier.
For diversions, as has been said, you can worry about the exact calculations once you're on track, so make the turn early with adjustments for drift. Once you're settled on track and you're straight and level then you can worry about GS and ETA etc.
With practice you can do a complete diversion plan, from finding out where you're going to informing the instructor of the plan, in under 90 seconds. Then you can relax a bit until you're immediately asked to do another one
For diversions, as has been said, you can worry about the exact calculations once you're on track, so make the turn early with adjustments for drift. Once you're settled on track and you're straight and level then you can worry about GS and ETA etc.
With practice you can do a complete diversion plan, from finding out where you're going to informing the instructor of the plan, in under 90 seconds. Then you can relax a bit until you're immediately asked to do another one
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Nice to see some great advice instead of the usual slating for using GPS! I'm currently hour building and have kept well away from he GPS scene - tempting though it is. Some tips on here spring back into mind from when I did my PPL. One I'd like to share is "Fly with your feet". My instructor used to tell me that when I had my head down drawing the diversion track I could keep the aircraft pretty stable using the pedals as long as it was trimmed properly beforehand - and you know what, he was right! After some practice I only ever lost/gained 30ft max and hardly banked at all.
I really enjoy my flying as a result of being genuinely aware of my position (Most of the time!) using the old clock/chart/pen and hope the CPL goes fairly smoothly as a result!
Oh, I also remember arriving at a small airfield in Suffolk and talking to a fairly experienced older gentleman over a cuppa - he asked me what GPS I had used to get there - nearly fell off his chair when I showed him a half mil! Brilliant! I think I restored some faith in the old habits!
Good luck on the CPL smith.
I really enjoy my flying as a result of being genuinely aware of my position (Most of the time!) using the old clock/chart/pen and hope the CPL goes fairly smoothly as a result!
Oh, I also remember arriving at a small airfield in Suffolk and talking to a fairly experienced older gentleman over a cuppa - he asked me what GPS I had used to get there - nearly fell off his chair when I showed him a half mil! Brilliant! I think I restored some faith in the old habits!
Good luck on the CPL smith.