Fixed wing v rotor
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Fixed wing v rotor
What are advantages v disadvantages of a career flying helicopters over flying fixed wing planes? My daughter is taking flying lessons in Warriors and Arrows at our local flying club and is hoping to get her PPL when she is 17. However she has had a few flights in helicopters (with the CCF) and is finding it hard to decide which route would be better as a career option and if to go down the military or civil route.
Is there a big difference in pay between types?
Which is more fun to fly?
Are there many women helicopter pilots?
If helicopters are the better option is she wasting money by learning to fly light aircraft?
Is there a big difference in pay between types?
Which is more fun to fly?
Are there many women helicopter pilots?
If helicopters are the better option is she wasting money by learning to fly light aircraft?
Last edited by motherbird; 22nd Jun 2007 at 14:04. Reason: spelling mistake
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Dear motherbird,
I'm a 20 years hold Italian Trainee Helicopter Pilot, in my opinion, the differences between helicopters and aircraft is only a personal choose as like as our passion prefer.
I have choose helicopters because in my opinion is more funny and anyway is another type of flight, but if your daughter decide to fly aircrafts is upon her discrection and passion.
The prices is anyway a second scenario, the decision to be a Professional Pilot in an investment in a future. The differences between the two prices is not much relevant.
About woman helicopter pilot: don't worry she will be in good company
If she decide to fly helicopter or to be a commercial pilot on helicopter, i suggest to start since now to fly helicopters, the differences between the two machines is very big.
In any case the only requirements to fly is the passion.
Hope to be clear
Sorry for my bad written english.
Emanuele
I'm a 20 years hold Italian Trainee Helicopter Pilot, in my opinion, the differences between helicopters and aircraft is only a personal choose as like as our passion prefer.
I have choose helicopters because in my opinion is more funny and anyway is another type of flight, but if your daughter decide to fly aircrafts is upon her discrection and passion.
The prices is anyway a second scenario, the decision to be a Professional Pilot in an investment in a future. The differences between the two prices is not much relevant.
About woman helicopter pilot: don't worry she will be in good company
If she decide to fly helicopter or to be a commercial pilot on helicopter, i suggest to start since now to fly helicopters, the differences between the two machines is very big.
In any case the only requirements to fly is the passion.
Hope to be clear
Sorry for my bad written english.
Emanuele
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Motherbird, a chum from ATPL theory is going down the commercial heli route, so what I am about to say is totally third-hand. You might try asking on the Rotorheads or helitorque.com forum instead.
Essentially the flying costs are twice as much compared to fixed wing, I hope you have deep pockets! Getting turbine time is tricky too, typically a prerequisite to getting a job, I have heard rates of around 600 per hour... you may get lucky in getting someone to pay this for you. Also top-end pay can be below the airlines and the job market is more finite.
Would your daughter suited for military life?
Luckily a lady by the name of Krasner may pop along soon and give an expert, qualified opinion
Essentially the flying costs are twice as much compared to fixed wing, I hope you have deep pockets! Getting turbine time is tricky too, typically a prerequisite to getting a job, I have heard rates of around 600 per hour... you may get lucky in getting someone to pay this for you. Also top-end pay can be below the airlines and the job market is more finite.
Would your daughter suited for military life?
Luckily a lady by the name of Krasner may pop along soon and give an expert, qualified opinion
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I rarely read this forum, but I saw the thread title and had to have a look.
I have a helicopter CPL and FI rating; I also have a PPL(A). At the moment I work as a helicopter instructor. I'm also female.
To answer your questions, I'll start with the simplest ones first.
Women make up a very small percentage of commercial pilots of any type - 2-3% - and I think the percentage is about the same for rotary and fixed wing. However, since there are less helicopter pilots altogether, there are less women flying rotary aircraft. But does it matter? You won't get any prejudice, or little, once you reach commercial levels. Most of what you do get comes from the general public. And as for being rare, and the only woman in the flying school, CPL class, etc etc...you get used to it.
Everyone, but everyone, thinks helicopters are more fun to fly if they like hands-on flying. They're flexible, versatile, can land almost anywhere...there's nothing not to like.
There is no real point in learning to fly light aircraft first, as the two are very different. If you want to fly helicopters, learn to fly helicopters. Flying both is a lot of fun, but if I hadn't got my PPL(A) first I probably wouldn't have bothered - as it is I do the minimum number of hours to hang on to it.
When it comes to careers, this is more complicated. There is no rotary equivalent of the airlines, and few secure jobs in the rotary world. Basically, you need to get a CPL(H), and then something else, in order to be employable. Many people get an instructors rating, but while helicopter instructors are far better paid than their fixed swing counterparts, it's quite hard to make a living as an instructor unless you have something to fall back on in winter and bad weather. If you want to go for turbine flying, the North Sea Oil Companies are how most people start, but they are now expecting peope to pay for their own IR, which is expensive. Of course, if your daughter joins the military, everything gets paid for, if she thinks the life would suit her. But there are few helicopter jobs with pay equivalent to top airline jobs.
There are a lot of issues here, but if you want more detail on all of this, go to Rotorheads and do a search, as the subject has been covered ad infinitum on there.
I have a helicopter CPL and FI rating; I also have a PPL(A). At the moment I work as a helicopter instructor. I'm also female.
To answer your questions, I'll start with the simplest ones first.
Women make up a very small percentage of commercial pilots of any type - 2-3% - and I think the percentage is about the same for rotary and fixed wing. However, since there are less helicopter pilots altogether, there are less women flying rotary aircraft. But does it matter? You won't get any prejudice, or little, once you reach commercial levels. Most of what you do get comes from the general public. And as for being rare, and the only woman in the flying school, CPL class, etc etc...you get used to it.
Everyone, but everyone, thinks helicopters are more fun to fly if they like hands-on flying. They're flexible, versatile, can land almost anywhere...there's nothing not to like.
There is no real point in learning to fly light aircraft first, as the two are very different. If you want to fly helicopters, learn to fly helicopters. Flying both is a lot of fun, but if I hadn't got my PPL(A) first I probably wouldn't have bothered - as it is I do the minimum number of hours to hang on to it.
When it comes to careers, this is more complicated. There is no rotary equivalent of the airlines, and few secure jobs in the rotary world. Basically, you need to get a CPL(H), and then something else, in order to be employable. Many people get an instructors rating, but while helicopter instructors are far better paid than their fixed swing counterparts, it's quite hard to make a living as an instructor unless you have something to fall back on in winter and bad weather. If you want to go for turbine flying, the North Sea Oil Companies are how most people start, but they are now expecting peope to pay for their own IR, which is expensive. Of course, if your daughter joins the military, everything gets paid for, if she thinks the life would suit her. But there are few helicopter jobs with pay equivalent to top airline jobs.
There are a lot of issues here, but if you want more detail on all of this, go to Rotorheads and do a search, as the subject has been covered ad infinitum on there.
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Thanks Whirlybird and BlueRobin
Unfortunately I don't have deep pockets so it looks like the military route is the most logical option (unless I win the lottery). She is a member of the CCF and had done some work experience with Middle Wallop's Army Air Corp so has some idea of what the army has to offer.
Unfortunately I don't have deep pockets so it looks like the military route is the most logical option (unless I win the lottery). She is a member of the CCF and had done some work experience with Middle Wallop's Army Air Corp so has some idea of what the army has to offer.
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MB,
good advice so far from Whirls.
This has been discussed plenty before but to save a little of your search time.
Rotary less jobs but less people going for them. Competition still high. Albeit your daughter will have age on her side.
I went the modular route. PPL(H), ATPL theory exams, CPL(H), hours building, FI rating, IR. PPL is about 12K, 45-47K by the time you've a cpl, 70-75K by teh time your an FI and add about another 35-40K for the IR and initial twin turbine rating
Fixed wing flying is cheaper, about 50K for the whole lot (so i'm lead to believe). Choice is horses for courses, but helis are more fun and trickier to handle.
Perhaps a starting point might be a helicopetr trial lesson? Your daughter may dislike actually flying one, in which case you answer your own question.
Military is an option although as you'd expect competition for those places is high.
Competition is high for any pilot jobs, the rewards are good for those that achieve the 'top end' jobs but more who qualify never get those jobs than those who do.
Rotary wise a new CPL is basically worthless employment wise.
With an FI rating salary is likely to be anything from 12-24K pa.
With an IR and a salaried position or as an experienced and well known freelancer earnings are anything from 35-90K.
Hope that helps,
FW
(One of the lucky ones)
good advice so far from Whirls.
This has been discussed plenty before but to save a little of your search time.
Rotary less jobs but less people going for them. Competition still high. Albeit your daughter will have age on her side.
I went the modular route. PPL(H), ATPL theory exams, CPL(H), hours building, FI rating, IR. PPL is about 12K, 45-47K by the time you've a cpl, 70-75K by teh time your an FI and add about another 35-40K for the IR and initial twin turbine rating
Fixed wing flying is cheaper, about 50K for the whole lot (so i'm lead to believe). Choice is horses for courses, but helis are more fun and trickier to handle.
Perhaps a starting point might be a helicopetr trial lesson? Your daughter may dislike actually flying one, in which case you answer your own question.
Military is an option although as you'd expect competition for those places is high.
Competition is high for any pilot jobs, the rewards are good for those that achieve the 'top end' jobs but more who qualify never get those jobs than those who do.
Rotary wise a new CPL is basically worthless employment wise.
With an FI rating salary is likely to be anything from 12-24K pa.
With an IR and a salaried position or as an experienced and well known freelancer earnings are anything from 35-90K.
Hope that helps,
FW
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I think that in her situation I must try to fly an helicopter to choose which way I will want to do.
As reported by Flingingwings the expense to be a Professional Pilot is very high (little bit more in Europe, very less in USA and Australia), but I will say again, the choose to be a Professional Pilot is an investment in the future, regarding the salary and concerning the World Helicopter Pilot Demand I think that the USA and the Northern Europe are the best place to start flying commercialy.
Regarding the turbine Helicopter the price is very high (I'm training in Italy on the R22, paying 390 € per hour,i don't want to know i will pay for the AS350 or higher, but Italian price is very high), but it's necessary to open some way to the real job.
Regarding women, as written by Whirlybird (Madame do you live near Trent VOR in the UK? Near East Midland?), the percentage is nothing refered the men, but if some new pretty woman join our world we are very happy!!
I think so that the military way, is the worst way to take for a girl so young, anyway I must declare that the military training it's better than the civil one, and the costs will be 0$.
Anyway rotor or fixed wings, I hope that your daughter join us in world skies soon.
Regards
Emanuele
As reported by Flingingwings the expense to be a Professional Pilot is very high (little bit more in Europe, very less in USA and Australia), but I will say again, the choose to be a Professional Pilot is an investment in the future, regarding the salary and concerning the World Helicopter Pilot Demand I think that the USA and the Northern Europe are the best place to start flying commercialy.
Regarding the turbine Helicopter the price is very high (I'm training in Italy on the R22, paying 390 € per hour,i don't want to know i will pay for the AS350 or higher, but Italian price is very high), but it's necessary to open some way to the real job.
Regarding women, as written by Whirlybird (Madame do you live near Trent VOR in the UK? Near East Midland?
), the percentage is nothing refered the men, but if some new pretty woman join our world we are very happy!! I think so that the military way, is the worst way to take for a girl so young, anyway I must declare that the military training it's better than the civil one, and the costs will be 0$.
Anyway rotor or fixed wings, I hope that your daughter join us in world skies soon.
Regards
Emanuele
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do you live near Trent VOR in the UK?
if some new pretty woman join our world we are very happy
Or are you being charmingly Italian and assuming that ALL women are beautiful?
I think so that the military way, is the worst way to take for a girl so young
Hovering AND talking
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Is there a big difference in pay between types?
One advantage with most UK helicopter operations, is that you will probably sleep in your own bed at night rather than hotels!
Bearing in mind that it costs 2-3 times more to get the appropriate (H) ratings than (A), these salaries are not great if you are trying to pay your rent/mortgage and pay off a loan which serviced the cost of the training. I say 2-3 times because, although the hourly rate to learn is about double (for a Robinson 22 that is; I learned on a Schweizer at £280.00 per hour), people generally take longer to get the licences as well. It is not uncommon for someone to take 60-70 hours to get a PPL(H), whereas fixed wing average is nearer 50.
A UK JAA instrument rating can cost around £30k in itself as there has to be an element of flying a twin engined helicopter at £1000 per hour. A single engined turbine would be £500-600 per hour. Much of this would have to be paid out of your own pocket.
After getting a CPL(H) with 200 hours behind you, you are still unemployable by the operators; their insurance requirements for a start will mandate that a pilot has at least x00 hundred hours (depending on the job; 500 for pipeline, 2000 hours for police/air ambo). Therefore, even after CPL, there is still more training; either Instructor Rating (a 30 hour course after you've reached 250 hours) or/and Instrument Rating plus turbine rating etc. However, there is work for people who have these ratings. You'd have to be prepared to move in all likelihood.
Which is more fun to fly?
Are there many women helicopter pilots?
If helicopters are the better option is she wasting money by learning to fly light aircraft?
Most helicopter pilots fall into one of two camps; those who trained in the military or those who have civilian training which they have come to as a second (or in my case, third) career having their original career to fall back on in lean times.
So, my advice to your daughter would be to either join the RAF/Navy/Army (although a flying job isn't guaranteed if you don't have the aptitude and what you fly isn't guaranteed either!) or, if going the civilian route, get another useful, portable qualification to fall back on.
Cheers
Whirls
PS - Flingingwings - how kind of you to compliment my advice in advance of it being given!!!
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Quote:
do you live near Trent VOR in the UK?
Yes. Do I know you?
No, madame I live in Verona, but I know east midland zone.
Quote:
if some new pretty woman join our world we are very happy
And suppose she's not pretty? Or are you being charmingly Italian and assuming that ALL women are beautiful?
Charmingly Italian mode on: All women are pretty when fly an helicopter.
Quote:
I think so that the military way, is the worst way to take for a girl so young
I think it depends on the girl. When I was that age, and looking for excitement, I think I'd have loved it...but the military weren't taking women then (I'm old!). Some people love that way of life. If you do, it's a great way to get free flying training. But if you don't, it would probably be sheer hell.
I thake the same with cheese madame, I think that I haven't understand all.
Madame can you PM me some information about your heli school, I must build hours at a price less than 350 €/per hour.
Thanks madame,
Bye
Emanuele
do you live near Trent VOR in the UK?
Yes. Do I know you?
No, madame I live in Verona, but I know east midland zone.
Quote:
if some new pretty woman join our world we are very happy
And suppose she's not pretty?
Or are you being charmingly Italian and assuming that ALL women are beautiful? Charmingly Italian mode on: All women are pretty when fly an helicopter.
Quote:
I think so that the military way, is the worst way to take for a girl so young
I think it depends on the girl. When I was that age, and looking for excitement, I think I'd have loved it...but the military weren't taking women then (I'm old!). Some people love that way of life. If you do, it's a great way to get free flying training. But if you don't, it would probably be sheer hell.
I thake the same with cheese madame
, I think that I haven't understand all.Madame can you PM me some information about your heli school, I must build hours at a price less than 350 €/per hour.
Thanks madame,
Bye
Emanuele
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Thanks Whirlygig.
It seems that I have no choice but to keep on paying for my daughter's flying lessons. While at Compton Abbas aerobatic competition today (sadly cloud base too low so no flying) my daughter, pretty but tough or do I mean pretty tough? reminded me that last year I had given her the option of having a one hour flying lesson each term or 10 saxophone lessons. No prizes for guessing which she chose and it appears I owe her three hours.
It seems that I have no choice but to keep on paying for my daughter's flying lessons. While at Compton Abbas aerobatic competition today (sadly cloud base too low so no flying) my daughter, pretty but tough or do I mean pretty tough? reminded me that last year I had given her the option of having a one hour flying lesson each term or 10 saxophone lessons. No prizes for guessing which she chose and it appears I owe her three hours.
Good....
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As a member of the Army Air Corps I offer the advice to think hard about joining the military as a helicopter pilot in order to gain experience for a civilian job.
If the AAC is the chosen path then she has two choices:
1. Join as a soldier and work her way to pilot training (expect this to take a few years).
2. Join as on officer and only fly for a couple of years before flying a desk.
The RAF or Navy offer direct entry routes with the RAF offering alternate flying routes should you be unsucessful.
There are frequent tours in very risky environments that need commitment and teamwork to get through them.
If it is simply a route to getting flying hours I categorically DO NOT recommend it.
That said, the flying is fantastic at times and the variation is great. Low level formation flying using Night vision Goggles etc. It is a real challenge.
Personally I have had enough and am leaning towards an airline career now.
But that is just my opinion. I have enjoyed my rotary time in the forces but it won't be forever.
If the AAC is the chosen path then she has two choices:
1. Join as a soldier and work her way to pilot training (expect this to take a few years).
2. Join as on officer and only fly for a couple of years before flying a desk.
The RAF or Navy offer direct entry routes with the RAF offering alternate flying routes should you be unsucessful.
There are frequent tours in very risky environments that need commitment and teamwork to get through them.
If it is simply a route to getting flying hours I categorically DO NOT recommend it.
That said, the flying is fantastic at times and the variation is great. Low level formation flying using Night vision Goggles etc. It is a real challenge.
Personally I have had enough and am leaning towards an airline career now.
But that is just my opinion. I have enjoyed my rotary time in the forces but it won't be forever.
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Dear all,
Thanks for the advice you have given my mum about flying and what I should do about it, it is good to hear different peoples advice and I will take it all on board . I still have a long way to go before I have to think about this stuff but your comments will help hopefully in making the right decision.
thanks
babybird
Thanks for the advice you have given my mum about flying and what I should do about it, it is good to hear different peoples advice and I will take it all on board . I still have a long way to go before I have to think about this stuff but your comments will help hopefully in making the right decision.
thanks
babybird
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Hi folks,
Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere. I have read through the sticky in Rotorheads but can’t quite find the answer I’m looking for.
When it comes to Rotary Wing (RW) vs. Fixed Wing (FW), one of the most common opinions/facts stated here on PPRuNe is that breaking into the professional RW world is infinitely more difficult than the commercial FW arena.
Most give the reason that there are far fewer RW jobs out there, and I’m not disputing that for a second. What I’m interested to know is the ratios (rough estimates welcome) of newly qualified pilot to the number of jobs out there in both the RW and FW arenas.
The point I’m trying to get at is this. Even though there are far more jobs in FW aviation, are there not far more trainee FW pilots competing for jobs? So in reality, the level of difficulty of breaking into either field isn’t too dissimilar after all – is that a wrong assumption?
I’m not however referring to the costs, as I understand RW is more expensive. My question is purely based on ratios of wannabes to jobs in both RW and FW.
Thanks all,
S.
Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere. I have read through the sticky in Rotorheads but can’t quite find the answer I’m looking for.
When it comes to Rotary Wing (RW) vs. Fixed Wing (FW), one of the most common opinions/facts stated here on PPRuNe is that breaking into the professional RW world is infinitely more difficult than the commercial FW arena.
Most give the reason that there are far fewer RW jobs out there, and I’m not disputing that for a second. What I’m interested to know is the ratios (rough estimates welcome) of newly qualified pilot to the number of jobs out there in both the RW and FW arenas.
The point I’m trying to get at is this. Even though there are far more jobs in FW aviation, are there not far more trainee FW pilots competing for jobs? So in reality, the level of difficulty of breaking into either field isn’t too dissimilar after all – is that a wrong assumption?
I’m not however referring to the costs, as I understand RW is more expensive. My question is purely based on ratios of wannabes to jobs in both RW and FW.
Thanks all,
S.