Diary of an IMC student at CATS Flight
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Manchester
Age: 49
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Diary of an IMC student at CATS Flight
The title pretty much says it all....
Being in the position of having to build some hours before I start my CPL/IR course I thought I'd do an IMC course - as a kind of way of easing myself into the IR course and here are the adventures so far!
DAY 1
Seeing as I haven't flown for nearly 3 years (Darn those ATPL exams!) I was obviously pretty nervous jumping back into a little C150 but thankfully my instructor Stuart Smith put me at ease, taking the time to show me of all the checks to be done, weather to be obtained and all the do's and dont's of flying!
My radio calls were obviously terrible, but Stuart was very good with this also, firstly practising the calls with me before actually getting me to do them. I know a lot of instructors would have just simply made the call in order for us to get into the air quicker - something which would have made me even less confident on the radio in the long run!
Once in the air it was a pleasant surprise to see all my skills returning one by one slowly - the instrument scan, smooth flight controls, lookout, general handling... even though my landings and curcuits needed a little work
I had explained to Stuart that my intention was to proceed onto the CPL/IR afterwards and anything he could show or teach me in the IMC that would help me in the IR would be greatly appreciated!
After the first lesson we proceeded onto VOR tracking / Intercepts, DME arcs, Standard Instrument Departures (SID's), Holds and Missed Approaches.
Wow what an eye opener all that was!
It was great to see the ATPL theory in practice for a change rather than just studying it.... and I was more than glad that I had already done my ATPL's - all the flight theory was pretty intensive!!!
DAY 2
We started the day a little late as the drive between Essex and Cranfield took a little longer than planned - thank you M25 & M1!!
We started with some IMC general handling (wearing a wonderful hood!) - medium and steep turns, stalling, unusual attitude recoveries, compass timed turns and partial panel which was very interesting!
I thought it was difficult enough flying the plane on instruments alone, only to find out it got harder when you didnt have one or more of these instruments!
:
General handling under a hood felt a little odd at first as I was used to doing manoveres being able to see out of the window, but once I'd got used to just watching the instruments if anything they made my handling better ie not turning 15 degrees during a stall !
In the afternoon we did a consolidation flight, an extremely reassuring flight as everything I'd learned up to that point was coming together slowly which obviously made it a little easier - practice makes perfect as they say!
It also felt my workload was easing up as a certain manoveure or procedure wasnt brand new anymore..... And thankfully Stuart made sure my workload wasn't too high - a sure way to scare anybody off!
DAY 3
SID's, Holds, NDB/ILS
Finally learning that flying by the numbers can be done!
Set your power, get the plane trimmed up to fly itself, hold your heading, manage a stable descent rate and you can hold an ILS to the deck (if you're really really good that is!)
I just about managed it to 400' before I lost the ILS - but not bad for a first attempt eh?!
Learning the RT for taking down clearances was interesting, you've got a lot to do to say the least!
Fly the plane, keep it stable, keep in your head whereabouts in the approach you are, where you've got to turn next, what needle is meant to be moving where, what to do when it moves, copy down the approach clearances and weather - and this is on top of all the usual pre landing checks etc!
Well I was more than ready for a weekend off
Next installment next week!
Being in the position of having to build some hours before I start my CPL/IR course I thought I'd do an IMC course - as a kind of way of easing myself into the IR course and here are the adventures so far!
DAY 1
Seeing as I haven't flown for nearly 3 years (Darn those ATPL exams!) I was obviously pretty nervous jumping back into a little C150 but thankfully my instructor Stuart Smith put me at ease, taking the time to show me of all the checks to be done, weather to be obtained and all the do's and dont's of flying!
My radio calls were obviously terrible, but Stuart was very good with this also, firstly practising the calls with me before actually getting me to do them. I know a lot of instructors would have just simply made the call in order for us to get into the air quicker - something which would have made me even less confident on the radio in the long run!
Once in the air it was a pleasant surprise to see all my skills returning one by one slowly - the instrument scan, smooth flight controls, lookout, general handling... even though my landings and curcuits needed a little work
I had explained to Stuart that my intention was to proceed onto the CPL/IR afterwards and anything he could show or teach me in the IMC that would help me in the IR would be greatly appreciated!
After the first lesson we proceeded onto VOR tracking / Intercepts, DME arcs, Standard Instrument Departures (SID's), Holds and Missed Approaches.
Wow what an eye opener all that was!
It was great to see the ATPL theory in practice for a change rather than just studying it.... and I was more than glad that I had already done my ATPL's - all the flight theory was pretty intensive!!!
DAY 2
We started the day a little late as the drive between Essex and Cranfield took a little longer than planned - thank you M25 & M1!!
We started with some IMC general handling (wearing a wonderful hood!) - medium and steep turns, stalling, unusual attitude recoveries, compass timed turns and partial panel which was very interesting!
I thought it was difficult enough flying the plane on instruments alone, only to find out it got harder when you didnt have one or more of these instruments!
:General handling under a hood felt a little odd at first as I was used to doing manoveres being able to see out of the window, but once I'd got used to just watching the instruments if anything they made my handling better ie not turning 15 degrees during a stall !
In the afternoon we did a consolidation flight, an extremely reassuring flight as everything I'd learned up to that point was coming together slowly which obviously made it a little easier - practice makes perfect as they say!
It also felt my workload was easing up as a certain manoveure or procedure wasnt brand new anymore..... And thankfully Stuart made sure my workload wasn't too high - a sure way to scare anybody off!
DAY 3
SID's, Holds, NDB/ILS
Finally learning that flying by the numbers can be done!
Set your power, get the plane trimmed up to fly itself, hold your heading, manage a stable descent rate and you can hold an ILS to the deck (if you're really really good that is!)
I just about managed it to 400' before I lost the ILS - but not bad for a first attempt eh?!
Learning the RT for taking down clearances was interesting, you've got a lot to do to say the least!
Fly the plane, keep it stable, keep in your head whereabouts in the approach you are, where you've got to turn next, what needle is meant to be moving where, what to do when it moves, copy down the approach clearances and weather - and this is on top of all the usual pre landing checks etc!
Well I was more than ready for a weekend off
Next installment next week!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Manchester
Age: 49
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Diary of an IMC student Part 2!
Sorry for the delay guys - its been a hectic couple of weeks!!!
We've had a few days of pretty bad weather - low cloudbase, CB's, Squall lines etc & also was busy renewing my PPL too....
So the usual story - trainings been delayed a few days due to unfavourable conditions...
DAY 4
A fun day today, some would call it a 'VOR bashing flight' but to me it was showing me how all the things I've been learning all come together...
The plan was to take of from Cranfield and get to Manston aka Kent International Airport for an SSR Precision approach - this is where the ATC controller has you on his radar and he simply gives you vectors ie turn right/left 10 degrees or so, speed up, slow down, descend/climb and when he tells you to go visual theres the runway right on the nose and all stablised for landing - its a comforting feeling let me tell you!!
Well we took off from Cranfield and routed via Barkway VOR/DME, Brookmans Park VOR/DME, Lambourne VOR/DME, Detling VOR/DME and then onto the approach for Manston and on the journey there I've got to say it was hard work! My problem was that I was 'behind the plane', things were happening pretty quickly and I was constantly catching up with things rather than anticipating them and being ready for them.
Just as we passed Rochester we switched to Manston and the controller already had us on radar and proceeded to vector us in. Things suddenly became lots easier let me tell you! All I was doing at this point really was making sure my altitude stayed within 100ft, my speed within 15 kts and my heading within 10 degrees of wherever the controller told me to go - before long the controller said that the runway is directly in front and that i was cleared for landing. When I looked up I remembered my words.... "F*** me thats massive!!!!" (not over the air thankfully!) This being my first time to manston i was shocked to see how big the runway was - an joking aviator said to me that I'd have more than enough room to land ACROSS it let alone along it and after seeing the size of the runway you probably could!!!
After taxying back we decided to have a spot of lunch at the nearby Spitfire museum (theres a fantastic cafe next door), homemade sausage bacon and brie pie mmmmmmm! As it was such a nice day we ate outside whilst watching a citation practising touch and go's - nice to see that its not only cessnas and pipers that have to do 'bounce and go's'.
The flight back was much much much easier, Stuart decided to let me get on with it so everything from speaking with ATC, tuning identifying and testing all the appropriate navaids along the way, flying (obviously!), frequency changes etc etc was all done by myself - a little minor achievement I was quite proud of! As I knew what was coming up and was already expecting it I found that I was better prepared and was 'in front of the plane' on the return, so a bit of advice - do your homework the night before and the flight will be a hell of a lot easier!!!
As if my life wasn't busy enough, I had agreed to do the Three Peaks Challenge the following weekend so another mini break - for those that dont know, 3 peaks is climing (and driving between) Ben Nevis in Scotland, Scafell Pike in the Lake District and Snowdon in Wales all within 24 hours!!!! (our time was 22hrs 53mins & 7 seconds)
DAY 5
Obviously still recovering from the gruelling weekend but no pain no gain eh?
We covered SIDs (standard instrument departures), Holds, NDB's and ILS.
We completed a full instrument departure which entailed taking off, tracking an NDB outbound, then onto a radial from a VOR at which point we were then allowed to climb up and oh my god, the first time going through cloud!
After the first few minutes, I'd settled down and found it was no different to flying normally (apart from the fact that you've REALLY got to concentrate on your instruments while you're being bumped around, its pretty easy to be flying along at an extremely unusual attitude as you loose that 'seat of the pants' feeling!)
DAY 6
The weather was getting slowly worse day by day and just to make things a little more interesting the wind decided to change direction too.
In the morning as the minimas were just way too low (cloudbase at 400') Stuart decided to take me up to the tower and show me how things worked up there.
It was pretty quiet due to the minimas but there were a couple of planes attempting to get into cranfield on minimas as the cloud was lifting slowly.
Darren the controller explained that as bad weather comes along the tone of pilots voices change, from being happy in sunshine to being pretty serious, sometimes worried and often stressed in bad weather.
Just as he had said this a pilot called the tower and requested the approach - it was pretty clear from his voice that he was indeed a little anxious! this was my que to shut up, listen and watch. I decided to get my approach plates out so I could follow whereabouts the plane was in the sky (obviously we couldn't see where he was due to the cloud!)
As the plane was coming into the hold there was some more bad news for him, the glidepath was out at Cranfield - when the pilot was informed of this you could instantly hear the stress levels in his voice shoot up, the next call we recieved was informing us that he was going to do another hold (possibly due to all the things that the poor guy had just had thrown at him!)
After that he called us up when he was established on the localiser and hey presto the glidepath came back into life, Darren relayed this to the pilot - warning him that the glidepath had come back into life after resetting it, but he couldn't guarantee that is was accurate! You could hear the relief in the pilots voice, he was set up on the localiser, he had glidepath indications (even though he had to manually check heights at certain stages this was still easier than no glidepath at all!) and he was just starting to come out of the cloud
Just as we saw him, he broke left for a low level circuit and then proceeded to land, quite a stressful few minutes, and this was taken from ground perspective!
As the cloud lifted, we were within limits and as the wind was coming from the opposite direction, obviously the runway direction changed also!
This at cranfield meant tracking different things outbound, a pretty major right turn pretty much soon after take off to return to the original SID and landing was a lot more interesting!!
After doing the original STAR (standard instrument arrival) ie going into the hold, doing your timed turns etc, establishing yourself on the glidepath and localiser, following it down, at 610' it was a case of look up, see the runway, break left for a low level circuit (taken at exactly 500' AGL), do a very close oval circuit keeping sight of the runway at all times and then straight in for landing! A few things I was very aware of as I was so low - flaps, speed and the possibility of overbanking!
DAY 7
The big day!!
In the morning Stuart took me up for a quick 40 min flight covering Standard departures, VOR tracking, Low level circuits, Holds, NDB's and ILS - it was good consolidating these just before my test as it helped keep everything fresh in my mind
The Test
I was flying a C172 that belonged to MWG Aviation at Cranfield.
I then found out that my examiner owned the company and also the plane.
Then I found out that he had also just recently spent approx 60,000 refitting the plane (wings, interior, flight instruments, gps...)
- lets just say I was now worried about the plane even more!
All dues to Martin Glencross (the Examiner/Owner), he was a fantastic guy - putting me at ease with the situation and going through everything he needed to in a friendly and non stressful way! I'm sure he could have made it a lot harder by being 'not as nice', but his demeanour was much appreciated!
On the test we did a standard instrument departure, climbing to the levels assigned by ATC. then after tracking the 307 radial from Daventry for 10 mins Martin then broke me off the navigation section of the test to start the general handling.
As we were just on top of the cloud and had the screens up i literally couldn't see anything apart from my instruments - se even a sneaky peek wasn't possible!
We did a couple of unusual attitude recoveries, then timed turns, partial panel turns and descents and so on (trying to remember everything but its all such a blur!!!).
After the general handling Martin said 'so far so good' and to return direct to Cranfield for landing.
We headed back towards the hold whilst I called ATC who instructed me to come in for a direct procedure (no holding thank god! I was told that if they ask me to do a hold I'd be tested on it, if they didnt ask then obviously I wouldnt be tested on it!).
After flying the glidepath down (now all fixed and working I might add!) to 700' Martin took the screens down and there was Cranfield in all its glory lit up like a Christmas tree! Obviously I was beaming from ear to ear but I knew I had one last thing to do - circle and land!
Breaking left for a low level circuit and a nice, gentle landing we vacated the runway at which point Martin told me I had passed! It took a lot of control stopping myself jumping out and running round the plane........
At the debrief Martin had a few points which he discussed with me - not all bad as I initially thought! There were a couple of things I could have done better at, my initial pick up of the Daventry VOR was slow and over correcting sent me into a snake like chase for the needle - not good!
Secondly I was (again) over correcting initially on the glidepath - at least I'm consistent!
Lastly Martin complimented me on being able to keep altitudes, tracks, speeds, descent rates etc bang on the numbers - he said its not often that someone who hasn't flown for so long can jump in a plane and be able to fly to that standard within such a short time.
For this I must thank Stuart - for being a meany when he needed to be and not let me get away with things!
Final Thought (yes it is Gerry Springer!)
Im extremely happy that I've passed, but even more glad that I decided to do my IMC before starting an IR. It really is a big step from the PPL to the IR and if anything, the IMC has introduced me into the world of IR flying in a relatively quick, easy and painless process. I would much rather muck up an hour of flying a C172 at £140ph than a twin at close to £300ph and at twice the airspeed!!!
So if you're thinking about doing your IR, instead of burning a hole in the sky when you're hour building in the states, leave off 15 hours to come back to Blighty and do an IMC in some cloud!
We've had a few days of pretty bad weather - low cloudbase, CB's, Squall lines etc & also was busy renewing my PPL too....
So the usual story - trainings been delayed a few days due to unfavourable conditions...
DAY 4
A fun day today, some would call it a 'VOR bashing flight' but to me it was showing me how all the things I've been learning all come together...
The plan was to take of from Cranfield and get to Manston aka Kent International Airport for an SSR Precision approach - this is where the ATC controller has you on his radar and he simply gives you vectors ie turn right/left 10 degrees or so, speed up, slow down, descend/climb and when he tells you to go visual theres the runway right on the nose and all stablised for landing - its a comforting feeling let me tell you!!
Well we took off from Cranfield and routed via Barkway VOR/DME, Brookmans Park VOR/DME, Lambourne VOR/DME, Detling VOR/DME and then onto the approach for Manston and on the journey there I've got to say it was hard work! My problem was that I was 'behind the plane', things were happening pretty quickly and I was constantly catching up with things rather than anticipating them and being ready for them.
Just as we passed Rochester we switched to Manston and the controller already had us on radar and proceeded to vector us in. Things suddenly became lots easier let me tell you! All I was doing at this point really was making sure my altitude stayed within 100ft, my speed within 15 kts and my heading within 10 degrees of wherever the controller told me to go - before long the controller said that the runway is directly in front and that i was cleared for landing. When I looked up I remembered my words.... "F*** me thats massive!!!!" (not over the air thankfully!) This being my first time to manston i was shocked to see how big the runway was - an joking aviator said to me that I'd have more than enough room to land ACROSS it let alone along it and after seeing the size of the runway you probably could!!!
After taxying back we decided to have a spot of lunch at the nearby Spitfire museum (theres a fantastic cafe next door), homemade sausage bacon and brie pie mmmmmmm! As it was such a nice day we ate outside whilst watching a citation practising touch and go's - nice to see that its not only cessnas and pipers that have to do 'bounce and go's'.
The flight back was much much much easier, Stuart decided to let me get on with it so everything from speaking with ATC, tuning identifying and testing all the appropriate navaids along the way, flying (obviously!), frequency changes etc etc was all done by myself - a little minor achievement I was quite proud of! As I knew what was coming up and was already expecting it I found that I was better prepared and was 'in front of the plane' on the return, so a bit of advice - do your homework the night before and the flight will be a hell of a lot easier!!!
As if my life wasn't busy enough, I had agreed to do the Three Peaks Challenge the following weekend so another mini break - for those that dont know, 3 peaks is climing (and driving between) Ben Nevis in Scotland, Scafell Pike in the Lake District and Snowdon in Wales all within 24 hours!!!! (our time was 22hrs 53mins & 7 seconds
)DAY 5
Obviously still recovering from the gruelling weekend but no pain no gain eh?
We covered SIDs (standard instrument departures), Holds, NDB's and ILS.
We completed a full instrument departure which entailed taking off, tracking an NDB outbound, then onto a radial from a VOR at which point we were then allowed to climb up and oh my god, the first time going through cloud!
After the first few minutes, I'd settled down and found it was no different to flying normally (apart from the fact that you've REALLY got to concentrate on your instruments while you're being bumped around, its pretty easy to be flying along at an extremely unusual attitude as you loose that 'seat of the pants' feeling!)
DAY 6
The weather was getting slowly worse day by day and just to make things a little more interesting the wind decided to change direction too.
In the morning as the minimas were just way too low (cloudbase at 400') Stuart decided to take me up to the tower and show me how things worked up there.
It was pretty quiet due to the minimas but there were a couple of planes attempting to get into cranfield on minimas as the cloud was lifting slowly.
Darren the controller explained that as bad weather comes along the tone of pilots voices change, from being happy in sunshine to being pretty serious, sometimes worried and often stressed in bad weather.
Just as he had said this a pilot called the tower and requested the approach - it was pretty clear from his voice that he was indeed a little anxious! this was my que to shut up, listen and watch. I decided to get my approach plates out so I could follow whereabouts the plane was in the sky (obviously we couldn't see where he was due to the cloud!)
As the plane was coming into the hold there was some more bad news for him, the glidepath was out at Cranfield - when the pilot was informed of this you could instantly hear the stress levels in his voice shoot up, the next call we recieved was informing us that he was going to do another hold (possibly due to all the things that the poor guy had just had thrown at him!)
After that he called us up when he was established on the localiser and hey presto the glidepath came back into life, Darren relayed this to the pilot - warning him that the glidepath had come back into life after resetting it, but he couldn't guarantee that is was accurate! You could hear the relief in the pilots voice, he was set up on the localiser, he had glidepath indications (even though he had to manually check heights at certain stages this was still easier than no glidepath at all!) and he was just starting to come out of the cloud
Just as we saw him, he broke left for a low level circuit and then proceeded to land, quite a stressful few minutes, and this was taken from ground perspective!
As the cloud lifted, we were within limits and as the wind was coming from the opposite direction, obviously the runway direction changed also!
This at cranfield meant tracking different things outbound, a pretty major right turn pretty much soon after take off to return to the original SID and landing was a lot more interesting!!
After doing the original STAR (standard instrument arrival) ie going into the hold, doing your timed turns etc, establishing yourself on the glidepath and localiser, following it down, at 610' it was a case of look up, see the runway, break left for a low level circuit (taken at exactly 500' AGL), do a very close oval circuit keeping sight of the runway at all times and then straight in for landing! A few things I was very aware of as I was so low - flaps, speed and the possibility of overbanking!
DAY 7
The big day!!
In the morning Stuart took me up for a quick 40 min flight covering Standard departures, VOR tracking, Low level circuits, Holds, NDB's and ILS - it was good consolidating these just before my test as it helped keep everything fresh in my mind
The Test I was flying a C172 that belonged to MWG Aviation at Cranfield.
I then found out that my examiner owned the company and also the plane.
Then I found out that he had also just recently spent approx 60,000 refitting the plane (wings, interior, flight instruments, gps...)
- lets just say I was now worried about the plane even more!
All dues to Martin Glencross (the Examiner/Owner), he was a fantastic guy - putting me at ease with the situation and going through everything he needed to in a friendly and non stressful way! I'm sure he could have made it a lot harder by being 'not as nice', but his demeanour was much appreciated!
On the test we did a standard instrument departure, climbing to the levels assigned by ATC. then after tracking the 307 radial from Daventry for 10 mins Martin then broke me off the navigation section of the test to start the general handling.
As we were just on top of the cloud and had the screens up i literally couldn't see anything apart from my instruments - se even a sneaky peek wasn't possible!
We did a couple of unusual attitude recoveries, then timed turns, partial panel turns and descents and so on (trying to remember everything but its all such a blur!!!).
After the general handling Martin said 'so far so good' and to return direct to Cranfield for landing.
We headed back towards the hold whilst I called ATC who instructed me to come in for a direct procedure (no holding thank god! I was told that if they ask me to do a hold I'd be tested on it, if they didnt ask then obviously I wouldnt be tested on it!).
After flying the glidepath down (now all fixed and working I might add!) to 700' Martin took the screens down and there was Cranfield in all its glory lit up like a Christmas tree! Obviously I was beaming from ear to ear but I knew I had one last thing to do - circle and land!
Breaking left for a low level circuit and a nice, gentle landing we vacated the runway at which point Martin told me I had passed! It took a lot of control stopping myself jumping out and running round the plane........
At the debrief Martin had a few points which he discussed with me - not all bad as I initially thought! There were a couple of things I could have done better at, my initial pick up of the Daventry VOR was slow and over correcting sent me into a snake like chase for the needle - not good!
Secondly I was (again) over correcting initially on the glidepath - at least I'm consistent!
Lastly Martin complimented me on being able to keep altitudes, tracks, speeds, descent rates etc bang on the numbers - he said its not often that someone who hasn't flown for so long can jump in a plane and be able to fly to that standard within such a short time.
For this I must thank Stuart - for being a meany when he needed to be and not let me get away with things!
Final Thought (yes it is Gerry Springer!)
Im extremely happy that I've passed, but even more glad that I decided to do my IMC before starting an IR. It really is a big step from the PPL to the IR and if anything, the IMC has introduced me into the world of IR flying in a relatively quick, easy and painless process. I would much rather muck up an hour of flying a C172 at £140ph than a twin at close to £300ph and at twice the airspeed!!!
So if you're thinking about doing your IR, instead of burning a hole in the sky when you're hour building in the states, leave off 15 hours to come back to Blighty and do an IMC in some cloud!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
15hrs in the uk is probably worth about 30hrs + in the states, so you'd have 'leave off' quite a bit of your hour building. However that was a great post and you've done very well in passing your IMC. It brought back memories for me especially the great expanse they call Manston, whoa!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In a house
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't want to hijack a thread but when I read some comments on here it really gets the blood boiling. I'm sorry boogie-nicey, could you just explain?
"15hrs in the uk is probably worth about 30hrs + in the states"
Also,
"great expanse they call Manston, whoa!"
Try landing into KLAX, KLAS, KSAN, KOAK in a light twin/single and you'll probably experience a tad more than landing into Manston.
Nice diary btw
"15hrs in the uk is probably worth about 30hrs + in the states"
Also,
"great expanse they call Manston, whoa!"
Try landing into KLAX, KLAS, KSAN, KOAK in a light twin/single and you'll probably experience a tad more than landing into Manston.
Nice diary btw
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In defence of Boogie - nicey, I think he is refering to a number of good points:
1) Many things are done differently over in the US (not saying they're wrong!). If you plan on doing a UK IR then you'll have to 're-learn' UK procedures which will take a good few hours.
2) Air space in the UK is much more complicated. For me to go in a 2 hour nav trip from Barton, I will need to do at least 1 CTR transit and 1 MATZ penetration. Not to mention the Low Level route and Advisory airspace if you want to go over water. There is ALWAYS class A (MAN TMA) above you. The midlands are the same and London is even worse!
From what I gather , this is not the case in the States. I know of many people who went hour building in the US. By their own admission, great views, but masses of uncontrolled airspace and more VORs than you know what to do with.
As someone who is currently hour building, these are the reasons that I decided to pay that bit more to get my hours over here.
And the beer is crap there too!
1) Many things are done differently over in the US (not saying they're wrong!). If you plan on doing a UK IR then you'll have to 're-learn' UK procedures which will take a good few hours.
2) Air space in the UK is much more complicated. For me to go in a 2 hour nav trip from Barton, I will need to do at least 1 CTR transit and 1 MATZ penetration. Not to mention the Low Level route and Advisory airspace if you want to go over water. There is ALWAYS class A (MAN TMA) above you. The midlands are the same and London is even worse!
From what I gather , this is not the case in the States. I know of many people who went hour building in the US. By their own admission, great views, but masses of uncontrolled airspace and more VORs than you know what to do with.
As someone who is currently hour building, these are the reasons that I decided to pay that bit more to get my hours over here.
And the beer is crap there too!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, I didn't mean to step on any toes. I was simply refering to the fact that 15hrs in the UK will probably cost you 30hrs stateside in terms of money. Aircraft rental is much higher in the UK than almost any place in the US.
I think it was a little naive of the diarist to comment that US and UK flight time is somehow 1 for 1, far from it. Simply check out the cost of an IMC course in the UK then add the practical overspend. Finally equate it to the number of hours you could purchase in the UK (you'll also find that the aircraft type used here in the UK is somewhat lesser than the a/c hire in the states).
Hope that helps and please don't get so wound up by any of my comments I never intend nor wish to upset other ppruners. Just check out my picture dude that's me all smiling and friendly ... without the beard, turban, white suit, etc
be cool
I think it was a little naive of the diarist to comment that US and UK flight time is somehow 1 for 1, far from it. Simply check out the cost of an IMC course in the UK then add the practical overspend. Finally equate it to the number of hours you could purchase in the UK (you'll also find that the aircraft type used here in the UK is somewhat lesser than the a/c hire in the states).
Hope that helps and please don't get so wound up by any of my comments I never intend nor wish to upset other ppruners. Just check out my picture dude that's me all smiling and friendly ... without the beard, turban, white suit, etc
be cool
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In a house
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No probs Boogie
EK4457, I'll agree with you about the beer, nats pi$$
"2) Air space in the UK is much more complicated. For me to go in a 2 hour nav trip from Barton, I will need to do at least 1 CTR transit and 1 MATZ penetration. Not to mention the Low Level route and Advisory airspace if you want to go over water. There is ALWAYS class A (MAN TMA) above you. The midlands are the same and London is even worse!"
I would totally agree with the bold quote above, if you were flying from Tuscon AZ to El Paso TX.
Take a look at the image below, it's the VFR transition North/South routing over Los Angeles. It's a complicated route, but totally necessary if you need to cross the LA basin. There is the LA Class B airspace all over the place (FAA Class B is similar to our Class A) You have Long beach, Torrence, Hawthorne, Santa Monica and an air force base thrown in for good measure, with their airspace from the surface to approz 2500'. Just to the south is Orange County, a Class Charlie that needs to be looked at. Once a student (hour builder) is used to the US RT and airspace, I would typically send him/her to Santa Monica, Santa Barbara or around the surrounding area. I had many students that were trained in the UK and on the East coast that really struggled with LA and it's not surprising, it's very demanding airspace.
But before making a blanket statement like, "the UK airspace is much more complicated", have a think before alienating others on pprune.
The point I'm getting at, is hour building is what you make of it. You can fly pi$$ easy routes in both the UK and US and not bother talking to anyone and bumble around the skies burning holes. It's down to the individual to make the most of his/her budget and training.
Personally I would recommend to go for the FAA IR rather than a UK IMC, but that's a totally different argument and we won't go there on this topic
EK4457, I'll agree with you about the beer, nats pi$$
"2) Air space in the UK is much more complicated. For me to go in a 2 hour nav trip from Barton, I will need to do at least 1 CTR transit and 1 MATZ penetration. Not to mention the Low Level route and Advisory airspace if you want to go over water. There is ALWAYS class A (MAN TMA) above you. The midlands are the same and London is even worse!"
I would totally agree with the bold quote above, if you were flying from Tuscon AZ to El Paso TX.
Take a look at the image below, it's the VFR transition North/South routing over Los Angeles. It's a complicated route, but totally necessary if you need to cross the LA basin. There is the LA Class B airspace all over the place (FAA Class B is similar to our Class A) You have Long beach, Torrence, Hawthorne, Santa Monica and an air force base thrown in for good measure, with their airspace from the surface to approz 2500'. Just to the south is Orange County, a Class Charlie that needs to be looked at. Once a student (hour builder) is used to the US RT and airspace, I would typically send him/her to Santa Monica, Santa Barbara or around the surrounding area. I had many students that were trained in the UK and on the East coast that really struggled with LA and it's not surprising, it's very demanding airspace.
But before making a blanket statement like, "the UK airspace is much more complicated", have a think before alienating others on pprune.
The point I'm getting at, is hour building is what you make of it. You can fly pi$$ easy routes in both the UK and US and not bother talking to anyone and bumble around the skies burning holes. It's down to the individual to make the most of his/her budget and training.
Personally I would recommend to go for the FAA IR rather than a UK IMC, but that's a totally different argument and we won't go there on this topic
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SD: I was somewhat hesitant with regards to mentioning the FAA IR but having done it and a UK IMC (long story) I would second that doing an IR in the LA basin area is more intense than most things here in dear old blighty. The 'experience' factor is heavily weighted in favour of the US and I find that most of the UK flying is not necessarily as burdensome as people say. Nevertheless all flying, anytime and any place requires your full attention.
Kangy: Once again well done on gaining your IMC and good luck on your IR.
Kangy: Once again well done on gaining your IMC and good luck on your IR.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SD,
I think you misunderstand me a little, maybe down to the wording in my post.
Try reading it as 'the complicated airspace is condensed into a much smaller space both horizontally and vertically in the UK'. Is that better?
Of course LAX, JFK, ORD, MCO, ATL and no doubt many others have extremely complicated airspace. These are the busiest airports in the world and make MAN look like a grass strip. But they are spread over an entire continent.
From what I have been told, you are hardly likely to encouter two of these on a single nav trip, if any at all.
The other day I went on a nav ex from Barton to White Waltham (lovely airfield). In 1hr 30mins I used the services of 5 lots of controled airspace and 3 MATZ. I lost count of the number of freqiencies I used and I planned the simplest route. It was a 'warm' up for my channel crossing which is pushing me even further.
I freely admit that I have never flown in the US and am basing my whole opinion on second hand info. But they are very reliable sources.
If you find that my opinion 'Alienates' you then you need to ask why. You clearly have the opposite opinion to me and I'm not bothered in the slightest.
Good look to you my friend.
Ironically, out of the two of us, I think you have flown in both countries and undoubtedly have much more flying experience than the newbie PPL that I am. But this purely a subjective matter.
Don't be offended by me 'cause I think it's better for me to hour build in more congested UK airspace to perpare for a UK CPL.
Next time I'm in LAX I'll buy you a crappy US beer and give you a big kiss.
No hard feelings eh?
Edited to apologise for hijacking an excellent thread which has possibly changed my mind about not doing an IMC rating.
I think you misunderstand me a little, maybe down to the wording in my post.
Try reading it as 'the complicated airspace is condensed into a much smaller space both horizontally and vertically in the UK'. Is that better?
Of course LAX, JFK, ORD, MCO, ATL and no doubt many others have extremely complicated airspace. These are the busiest airports in the world and make MAN look like a grass strip. But they are spread over an entire continent.
From what I have been told, you are hardly likely to encouter two of these on a single nav trip, if any at all.
The other day I went on a nav ex from Barton to White Waltham (lovely airfield). In 1hr 30mins I used the services of 5 lots of controled airspace and 3 MATZ. I lost count of the number of freqiencies I used and I planned the simplest route. It was a 'warm' up for my channel crossing which is pushing me even further.
I freely admit that I have never flown in the US and am basing my whole opinion on second hand info. But they are very reliable sources.
If you find that my opinion 'Alienates' you then you need to ask why. You clearly have the opposite opinion to me and I'm not bothered in the slightest.
Good look to you my friend.
Ironically, out of the two of us, I think you have flown in both countries and undoubtedly have much more flying experience than the newbie PPL that I am. But this purely a subjective matter.
Don't be offended by me 'cause I think it's better for me to hour build in more congested UK airspace to perpare for a UK CPL.
Next time I'm in LAX I'll buy you a crappy US beer and give you a big kiss.
No hard feelings eh?
Edited to apologise for hijacking an excellent thread which has possibly changed my mind about not doing an IMC rating.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Manchester
Age: 49
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly let me thank everyone for their kind wishes....
Secondly let me thank all those concerned for
a) being so angry
b) turning an innocent post such as MY experiences (it was an account of what I experienced - purely hoping that someone might find it interesting or useful!) into an argument!
.... Just for the record, I have flown in the states, FL, CA, TX, AZ & flown out of many international airports and in other very busy airspaces!
Even with having about 100 hours from the states I stand by my original statement - come back a little early and do an IMC in Blighty!
Flying hours in the states is easy - my own opinion, nobody elses.
Yes it is also cheaper.
HOWEVER
The experience I gained by doing those CONSTRUCTIVE (please note the important word!) 15 hours in the UK far far far outweighs the price difference in my opinion and if you are intending to do an IR and work in this country, theres no doubt in my mind that doing an IMC in the UK instead of burning 30 hours in the US will be far more useful to you - again my opinion, nobody else's!!!
Secondly let me thank all those concerned for
a) being so angry
b) turning an innocent post such as MY experiences (it was an account of what I experienced - purely hoping that someone might find it interesting or useful!) into an argument!
.... Just for the record, I have flown in the states, FL, CA, TX, AZ & flown out of many international airports and in other very busy airspaces!
Even with having about 100 hours from the states I stand by my original statement - come back a little early and do an IMC in Blighty!
Flying hours in the states is easy - my own opinion, nobody elses.
Yes it is also cheaper.
HOWEVER
The experience I gained by doing those CONSTRUCTIVE (please note the important word!) 15 hours in the UK far far far outweighs the price difference in my opinion and if you are intending to do an IR and work in this country, theres no doubt in my mind that doing an IMC in the UK instead of burning 30 hours in the US will be far more useful to you - again my opinion, nobody else's!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Manchester
Age: 49
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not a bar Boogie, I'm just a tad fed up with everyone having the arse - it seems that most of the time the only time people post on here is to put something/someone down or have an argument!
Why can't we all just get along eh?
Why can't we all just get along eh?
Last edited by kangy; 13th Jun 2007 at 17:45. Reason: edited for typo's
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's my statement dude "Why can't we all just get along". Well done Kangy you've clearly learnt far more than most people! Rock on and enjoy that IMC (just be a bit careful at first though)
Good one ....
Good one ....
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with SD on this one.
Kangy has already made me think twice about the IMC rating. Perhaps I could be made to think twice about my opinion of US hour building.
If so, this is the place to discuss. Thats what its here for. As I said, I don't claim to be absolutely right. If there is disagreement, we can talk about it as adults, which we are doing.
Quick Q on the UK IMC: What can you actually do with it? I was under the impression that it was just to decrease your flying minimas. Why do you do SID and STARS? Can you do IR flights in IMC?
Just a forum debate, no one is right or wrong, healthy discussion
If so, this is the place to discuss. Thats what its here for. As I said, I don't claim to be absolutely right. If there is disagreement, we can talk about it as adults, which we are doing.
Quick Q on the UK IMC: What can you actually do with it? I was under the impression that it was just to decrease your flying minimas. Why do you do SID and STARS? Can you do IR flights in IMC?