CPL/ATPL qualifying hours requirements
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Big Grecian,
Thanks for your contribution.
I did quote LASORS so there was no need to quote it yourself. I just wanted to benefit from others who had done the trip to know what was meant.
Thankfully the FAA make things much clearer and less ambiguous.
The follow up question is this.
The trip has to be made as PIC. The US require that the trip is done solo so that is obviously PIC. Can a passenger be carried in meeting the LASORS requirement?
Thanks for your contribution.
I did quote LASORS so there was no need to quote it yourself. I just wanted to benefit from others who had done the trip to know what was meant.
Thankfully the FAA make things much clearer and less ambiguous.
The follow up question is this.
The trip has to be made as PIC. The US require that the trip is done solo so that is obviously PIC. Can a passenger be carried in meeting the LASORS requirement?
From JAR-FCL1:
From ICAO Annex 1:
provided you hold a licence that entitles you to carry passengers, then there is nothing to prevent it!
I think the requirement is perfectly clear. You say that the FAA require you to do it SOLO but thats not what my copy of FARS states!
(c) 20 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command including a VFR cross-country flight totalling at least 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full stop landings at two different aerodromes from the aerodrome of departure shall be made;
b) 20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot-incommand including a cross-country flight totalling not less than 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be made;
I think the requirement is perfectly clear. You say that the FAA require you to do it SOLO but thats not what my copy of FARS states!
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I think the requirement is perfectly clear. You say that the FAA require you to do it SOLO but thats not what my copy of FARS states!
Well read the FARs properly 61.129 (4) (i)
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
<<edit: That response is going to hurt. Watch for incoming.>>
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Requirement of night rating to take the cpl or inst-rating?
Any advice/solutions/experiences of this situation would be gratefully appreciated.
Ive decided to do my IR before my cpl but have been told that you have to have your night rating before starting the training ( right or wrong?), however after calling around many schools who laugh at me wanting to do a night rating at this time of year one place said that you only need to have a night rating for issue therefore i could leave it till after both my IR and CPL (again is this right or wrong?), i have looked at lasors but it seems a little vague on this matter and after a unhelpfull conversation with a young lady at the CAA today who just read out the same section of lasors to me im none the wiser!!!
Please help as i have the chance to start next week on the IR
Thanks in advance
Ive decided to do my IR before my cpl but have been told that you have to have your night rating before starting the training ( right or wrong?), however after calling around many schools who laugh at me wanting to do a night rating at this time of year one place said that you only need to have a night rating for issue therefore i could leave it till after both my IR and CPL (again is this right or wrong?), i have looked at lasors but it seems a little vague on this matter and after a unhelpfull conversation with a young lady at the CAA today who just read out the same section of lasors to me im none the wiser!!!
Please help as i have the chance to start next week on the IR
Thanks in advance
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I seem to remember that you have to have done the training for the night before going for your IR or CPL. If you do the IR first they want it on your license but if you do the CPL first you only have to have done the training nothing needs to be issued. Once you have the CPL pass sheet in you hand then you can start the IR no probs. And submit the whole lot in one go.
Give Dylan a ring at Leeds Flying school he will know the score.
I suspect the only chance you have of getting night training done this time of year is to go to the states. You will need to go to a 24H airport and then try and get an instructor willing to work at past 10 pm. So the likes of east mids might be able to do it. The open bribe of a couple of crates of beer may have to be put on the table, over and on top of the course fee to get an Instructor though.
Give Dylan a ring at Leeds Flying school he will know the score.
I suspect the only chance you have of getting night training done this time of year is to go to the states. You will need to go to a 24H airport and then try and get an instructor willing to work at past 10 pm. So the likes of east mids might be able to do it. The open bribe of a couple of crates of beer may have to be put on the table, over and on top of the course fee to get an Instructor though.
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Cheers M-J
Unfortunately usa is out as it would take up to 6weeks to get the 'training visa'
I found this in lasors, but yet again it doesnt state if "applicants" means for starting the training or for actual issue? grrrr
"All applicants must hold a PPL(A) including a Night
Qualification/Rating or a CPL(A), and a Flight
Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence."
Please please help someone
Unfortunately usa is out as it would take up to 6weeks to get the 'training visa'
I found this in lasors, but yet again it doesnt state if "applicants" means for starting the training or for actual issue? grrrr
"All applicants must hold a PPL(A) including a Night
Qualification/Rating or a CPL(A), and a Flight
Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence."
Please please help someone
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Well ive spoke to several fto's including where i did my ppl and where im hoping to do the rest of my training and i seem to be getting a variety of answers hence my concern, after all who would want to spend £11,000 on an ir and then be told 'sorry we wont recognise it because your night rating is dated after your ir!' 
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Belly you wouldn't even get to sit the test. It would be picked up by your 170A examiner.
It says in E 1.2 that you must have a PPL or CPL which allows you to fly at night. As part of pre course experence requirments. So I think you are knackard.
And remember as well it needs to be issued so unless you go and sit at Gatwick that will take 3 weeks to come back.
As I said you are goig to have to phone round all the schools who operate out of 24H airports and see if anyone is willing to work at that time of night.
I suspect it will cost you a fortune in landing fee's if you do it in the UK.
Fancy a week in Cyprus?
Griffon http://www.griffonaviation.com/
You can do the training in any ICAO country although I suspect cyprus is part of JAR
And you will need a MEP course and test cert as well.
I would phone some of the favorite pprune FTO's in Florida you never know one of them maybe able to help.
It says in E 1.2 that you must have a PPL or CPL which allows you to fly at night. As part of pre course experence requirments. So I think you are knackard.
And remember as well it needs to be issued so unless you go and sit at Gatwick that will take 3 weeks to come back.
As I said you are goig to have to phone round all the schools who operate out of 24H airports and see if anyone is willing to work at that time of night.
I suspect it will cost you a fortune in landing fee's if you do it in the UK.
Fancy a week in Cyprus?
Griffon http://www.griffonaviation.com/
You can do the training in any ICAO country although I suspect cyprus is part of JAR
And you will need a MEP course and test cert as well.
I would phone some of the favorite pprune FTO's in Florida you never know one of them maybe able to help.
Last edited by mad_jock; 7th Jun 2006 at 21:12.
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I thought about that but im going to be doing it in spain and while spain is obviously jaa it does not have a night rating? Therefore not a requirement, crazy situation isnt it!? no idea why! but means i could achieve the rating and have it issued by the uk caa as a few others have, but ive tried pm's and emails to a few of the people on pprune who have done this but i havnt had areply yet.
So as you can see i could get the ir but its wether the uk caa will then find a problem with it! To make matters even more complicated the school in spain does 10hours of night training as part of thier course but yet again i couldnt get the caa lady today comment on wether this would equate to a 'night rating'?
SORRY for being such an akward pain in the &*^%£ but at least you see why i am so confused!!!!!
So as you can see i could get the ir but its wether the uk caa will then find a problem with it! To make matters even more complicated the school in spain does 10hours of night training as part of thier course but yet again i couldnt get the caa lady today comment on wether this would equate to a 'night rating'?
SORRY for being such an akward pain in the &*^%£ but at least you see why i am so confused!!!!!
yet again i couldnt get the caa lady today comment on wether this would equate to a night 'rating'
The night qualification is a pre-requisite for commencing a modular IR(A) course (see Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.205). If it is true that Spain does not require a night 'qualification' prior to commencement of the modular IR(A) then the course is not being conducted in accordance with JAR-FCL 1 and no other member state is obliged to accept the rating thus gained. I think it more likely, Bellyfluffer, that you are confused over the distinction between night rating and night qualification and are, therefore, not asking the right questions.
It is dangerous to rely too heavily on LASORS, which is only the UK CAA's (mis)interpretation of JAR-FCL and is riddled with errors. It is always best to go to the source document.
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Sorry B-B
you are quite right about it being a qualification, my mistake, its getting late and i have been looking at so many documents i made an error! Some countries/authorities refer to it as a rating, others like jar as a qualification as B-B says.
As for the issue of spain i have spoke to 6 fto's and all say that spain has no night qualification in their training so therefore couldnt give me one as it simply doesnt exist in spainish atpl training for either modular or int!?
Yet i know there are spanish atpl pilots working in the UK so surely the UK CAA accept this??
I agree that LASORS is at least controversial but the 'caa lady' insisted on simply reciting lines from it hence why i sound unimpressed with my dealing with them today (admitedly she may have just been having a bad day
)
you are quite right about it being a qualification, my mistake, its getting late and i have been looking at so many documents i made an error! Some countries/authorities refer to it as a rating, others like jar as a qualification as B-B says.
As for the issue of spain i have spoke to 6 fto's and all say that spain has no night qualification in their training so therefore couldnt give me one as it simply doesnt exist in spainish atpl training for either modular or int!?
Yet i know there are spanish atpl pilots working in the UK so surely the UK CAA accept this??
I agree that LASORS is at least controversial but the 'caa lady' insisted on simply reciting lines from it hence why i sound unimpressed with my dealing with them today (admitedly she may have just been having a bad day
)
The definitave document is JAR-FCL 1.190
Any FTO offering these courses has to have a Training Manual that clearly states the course pre-entry requirements!
An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes.
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"An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes."
'Maybe im too stupid to be a pilot after all because im having so many problems trying to read and understand this!'
So does this mean that by stating 'applicant for an IR' you only have to have the night qualification at the time you send off your licence to have the IR issued?
'Maybe im too stupid to be a pilot after all because im having so many problems trying to read and understand this!'
So does this mean that by stating 'applicant for an IR' you only have to have the night qualification at the time you send off your licence to have the IR issued?
You actually need to read on a little further in JAR-FCL 1. Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.205, which deals with the modular IR(A) course, states:
"An applicant for a modular IR(A) course shall be the holder of a PPL(A) or a CPL(A), either licence to include the privileges to fly by night, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1. The Training Organisation shall ensure that the applicant for a multi-engine IR(A) course who has not held a multiengine aeroplane class or type rating has received the multi-engine training specified in JAR-FCL 1.261(b)(2) prior to commencing the [flight training for] IR(A) course."
This allows the holder of a non-JAA licence to undertake the IR(A) course prior to having a JAA licence issued. However, if you hold a JAA licence, the requirement for that licence to include the privilege to fly by night can only be fulfilled by the JAA night qualification. Therefore, no JAA FTO should accept you for training unless your PPL includes the privilege to fly by night and the CAA may well refuse to issue the rating unless you hold a JAA night qualification.
"An applicant for a modular IR(A) course shall be the holder of a PPL(A) or a CPL(A), either licence to include the privileges to fly by night, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1. The Training Organisation shall ensure that the applicant for a multi-engine IR(A) course who has not held a multiengine aeroplane class or type rating has received the multi-engine training specified in JAR-FCL 1.261(b)(2) prior to commencing the [flight training for] IR(A) course."
This allows the holder of a non-JAA licence to undertake the IR(A) course prior to having a JAA licence issued. However, if you hold a JAA licence, the requirement for that licence to include the privilege to fly by night can only be fulfilled by the JAA night qualification. Therefore, no JAA FTO should accept you for training unless your PPL includes the privilege to fly by night and the CAA may well refuse to issue the rating unless you hold a JAA night qualification.
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An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes.
According to Lasors E1.2 it states-
An applicant for a Modular IR (A) COURSE shall be the holder of a PPL (A) or CPL(A), either licence to include the privileges to fly at night, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1. In addition, applicants must hold a Flight Radio Telephony Operator's Licence
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Yeah i can see that now and also why LASORS isn't quite the bible it is made out to be 
cheers to all who helped with this esp. B-B
For anyone who wishes to continue the challenge......
How does the spanish situation stand then, are they in breach of jaa/jar?
Also are there exacting regs that have to be followed for the night Q or would the 10hours of IR tution at night offered by one of the spanish schools qualify as the required training for the night qualification? Thus this being the way they cover/get around the issue of it being a jaa/jar requirement?
Look forward to any replies comments,
cheers again
cheers to all who helped with this esp. B-B
For anyone who wishes to continue the challenge......
How does the spanish situation stand then, are they in breach of jaa/jar?
Also are there exacting regs that have to be followed for the night Q or would the 10hours of IR tution at night offered by one of the spanish schools qualify as the required training for the night qualification? Thus this being the way they cover/get around the issue of it being a jaa/jar requirement?
Look forward to any replies comments,
cheers again
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Its in that same section E of Lasor's.
The difference maybe a notified difference to JAR for the Spanish.
Every country can opt out of certain bits they just have to publish a difference.
I am not suprised no one at the belgrano wants to put there kneck on the line with your case. The easy option for them is going to be to say no.
I suspect that as they use the IR as the only check where a CAA staff examiner gets their hands on you for a check and the CAA gets the money directly. They won't be in the mind set to give you any slack when it comes to you gaining a rating on a British license through a Spanish FTO and Spanish examiner.
This mix and matching of Licenses and ratings under JAR is great in theory but in practise it is very rare that it actually works smoothly, and I suspect the 2-3000 pounds you will save by doing it in a Spanish FTO will not be a saving in the long run. Even in the type rating examiner world there are all sorts of problems with British TRE's signing other member states licenses and the associated paper work trail.
The difference maybe a notified difference to JAR for the Spanish.
Every country can opt out of certain bits they just have to publish a difference.
I am not suprised no one at the belgrano wants to put there kneck on the line with your case. The easy option for them is going to be to say no.
I suspect that as they use the IR as the only check where a CAA staff examiner gets their hands on you for a check and the CAA gets the money directly. They won't be in the mind set to give you any slack when it comes to you gaining a rating on a British license through a Spanish FTO and Spanish examiner.
This mix and matching of Licenses and ratings under JAR is great in theory but in practise it is very rare that it actually works smoothly, and I suspect the 2-3000 pounds you will save by doing it in a Spanish FTO will not be a saving in the long run. Even in the type rating examiner world there are all sorts of problems with British TRE's signing other member states licenses and the associated paper work trail.