FTO styles - too militaristic and conformist?
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Dave is spot-on with his observations. The fact you have to wear a uniform at some of the schools is absurd. Can you imagine students of law at Durham University parading around in a wig and gavel?
HWD, sorry, perhaps I gave the wrong impression of my Belgrano observations. It wasn't just their appearance, but also their manner which indicated who was likely to be unemployable.
Person 1. Scruffy jeans (stained) and t-shirt with old leather jacket. Greets receptionist with "Oi mate, where's the car park".....
Person 2. Shirt and trousers. Greets receptionist with "Good morning. I'm here to take some exams.".....
Person 1. Scruffy jeans (stained) and t-shirt with old leather jacket. Greets receptionist with "Oi mate, where's the car park".....
Person 2. Shirt and trousers. Greets receptionist with "Good morning. I'm here to take some exams.".....
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Quote:
Life is different now and the old ways are totally incompatible with modern demands,
From standing up when a teacher enters a room, to saluting, to polishing ones shoes. Due defference and respect for rank and experience is something (sadly, I think) lacking in many schools and young peoples lives today.
We are getting bogged down in haircuts and uniforms.
Turning up for briefing forgetting a pen, with an unironed shirt, 6 minutes late, still eating toast. Sitting in a classroom and continuing their conversation when the lecturer walks in rather than shutting up and turning to front. An absence of please and thank yous. The inability to either switch off a mobile phone or desist from texting or checking texts for any period greater than 15 minutes.
Why the thread title links the military to conformism is a mystery probably best explained by the originators total ignorance of military personnel ethos and life. The conformity of many <25yrs olds to a pseudo American Rap influenced admiration of bling and slavish fascination with innane communications and gadgets with far more widespread and recognisable.
The simple fact that in somewhere as relaxed and civilian as Kiddlington flying school (OATS) some students find things 'too militaristic and conformist' merely highlights what a liberal wishy-washy experience of education they have enjoyed so far in their lives.
Still, this is a commercial world. I'm sure there are more 'relaxed' training providers out there if you look.
Cheers
WWW
Turning up for briefing forgetting a pen, with an unironed shirt, 6 minutes late, still eating toast. Sitting in a classroom and continuing their conversation when the lecturer walks in rather than shutting up and turning to front. An absence of please and thank yous. The inability to either switch off a mobile phone or desist from texting or checking texts for any period greater than 15 minutes.
Why the thread title links the military to conformism is a mystery probably best explained by the originators total ignorance of military personnel ethos and life. The conformity of many <25yrs olds to a pseudo American Rap influenced admiration of bling and slavish fascination with innane communications and gadgets with far more widespread and recognisable.
The simple fact that in somewhere as relaxed and civilian as Kiddlington flying school (OATS) some students find things 'too militaristic and conformist' merely highlights what a liberal wishy-washy experience of education they have enjoyed so far in their lives.
Still, this is a commercial world. I'm sure there are more 'relaxed' training providers out there if you look.
Cheers
WWW
Originally Posted by Dave Martin
At the same time though, the judgement that one persons smarter haircut constitutes a better work ethic, a tie indicates professionalism, or a suit ahead of smart-casual shows greater committment are in my opinion counter productive and quite possibly over-opinionated judgement calls.
WWW - is that really how students behave these days?
Why doesn't the school have a code of practice stating:
1. Students will conform to a (stated) uniform policy. Spell it out if necessary.
2. Food and beverages will not be permitted in lecture rooms or briefing rooms. And no, there is NO NEED for bloody bottled water in an hour's lecture either!
3. The use of mobile phones is prohibited during lectures and briefings.
And tell the little scrotes that anyone who doesn't stop talking and pay attention when the lecturer enters will be assumed to be volunteering for a tech quiz. Or to decode the current TAF and METAR.
Why doesn't the school have a code of practice stating:
1. Students will conform to a (stated) uniform policy. Spell it out if necessary.
2. Food and beverages will not be permitted in lecture rooms or briefing rooms. And no, there is NO NEED for bloody bottled water in an hour's lecture either!
3. The use of mobile phones is prohibited during lectures and briefings.
And tell the little scrotes that anyone who doesn't stop talking and pay attention when the lecturer enters will be assumed to be volunteering for a tech quiz. Or to decode the current TAF and METAR.
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Turning up for briefing forgetting a pen, with an unironed shirt, 6 minutes late, still eating toast. Sitting in a classroom and continuing their conversation when the lecturer walks in rather than shutting up and turning to front.
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Originally Posted by Wee Weasley Welshman
Why the thread title links the military to conformism is a mystery probably best explained by the originators total ignorance of military personnel ethos and life.
Scroggs
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WWW: If you choose to read through my originator's thread you'd see it was extracted by scorggs and started off on it's own. I had no intention of sparking such a debate and made that quite clear immediately after the hijacking of post on a previous post. Even the title was 'arranged' for me, so please don't berate me for that.
You are correct I have no experience of military life but then again I wasn't fighting in the first world war to know it was nasty episode in the human chapter.
Nevertheless considering the subsequent posts by people I would feel things have moved onto a uniform/casual wear debate, whereas it was originally entitled along a slightly different persepctive of military mannerisms in civilian flight schools. Obviously uniform is one example but ceratinly not the sole issue that surrounds this topic.
I personally think that a professional standard on it's own is simply a bridge too far for most people these days. They don't even have the fundamentals and can't study, express themeselves, show empathy to others, exhibit self control and manners, lack of general knowledge (rapidly approaching the level of the US public), etc. However I feel these issues need to ideally be addressed by the mainstream schooling system and not the flight shcool they are there to focus on flight training and not to complicate things with teaching other aspects too. I'm sure the same can be said about other professions. Do you remember the Chief Surgeon in carry on films that had the big beard with an equally fluffy name Sir Bum-phrey
He commanded respect by all and was a very well eductaed in both his profession and general upbringing, he no doubt took personal responsibility for his actions and a care for all his staff.... honourable. Fast forward to the present day and there I am at a wedding sitting next to a very senior doctor using colourful language, driving a 'kitted out' car (rude boy style), a display of constant arrogance accompanied by a very selfish tone to all. That is the result of today's disrespectful system that we are pushing the young people through.
I agree with many of this thread that other unwelcome facets of social behaviour have unfortunately found their way into our FTOs but flying is still a very serious business. However many define flight training through their personal experience as a passenger (it's takes a long time sitting down then you get there and the doors open), I turned a 747 on my Microsoft flight simulator thus I'm a semi-qualified pilot, I saw a documentary on the Discovert channel and they have computers flying the aeroplane therefore anyone can fly it. Most unfortunate but there you have it....
The conclusion as far as I can see it is to raise standards outside of the FTOs so the 'input' of student can make better use of the training to be undertaken. The RAF wouldn't want to combine every stage of training from Initial Officer right upto adanvanced weaponary and conversion training into one single college, so why should civilian FTOs.
Until we can't get rid of the 'excessive left wing tendancies' in society then we are prone to lots of bad quality students.
You are correct I have no experience of military life but then again I wasn't fighting in the first world war to know it was nasty episode in the human chapter.
Nevertheless considering the subsequent posts by people I would feel things have moved onto a uniform/casual wear debate, whereas it was originally entitled along a slightly different persepctive of military mannerisms in civilian flight schools. Obviously uniform is one example but ceratinly not the sole issue that surrounds this topic.
I personally think that a professional standard on it's own is simply a bridge too far for most people these days. They don't even have the fundamentals and can't study, express themeselves, show empathy to others, exhibit self control and manners, lack of general knowledge (rapidly approaching the level of the US public), etc. However I feel these issues need to ideally be addressed by the mainstream schooling system and not the flight shcool they are there to focus on flight training and not to complicate things with teaching other aspects too. I'm sure the same can be said about other professions. Do you remember the Chief Surgeon in carry on films that had the big beard with an equally fluffy name Sir Bum-phrey
He commanded respect by all and was a very well eductaed in both his profession and general upbringing, he no doubt took personal responsibility for his actions and a care for all his staff.... honourable. Fast forward to the present day and there I am at a wedding sitting next to a very senior doctor using colourful language, driving a 'kitted out' car (rude boy style), a display of constant arrogance accompanied by a very selfish tone to all. That is the result of today's disrespectful system that we are pushing the young people through. I agree with many of this thread that other unwelcome facets of social behaviour have unfortunately found their way into our FTOs but flying is still a very serious business. However many define flight training through their personal experience as a passenger (it's takes a long time sitting down then you get there and the doors open), I turned a 747 on my Microsoft flight simulator thus I'm a semi-qualified pilot, I saw a documentary on the Discovert channel and they have computers flying the aeroplane therefore anyone can fly it. Most unfortunate but there you have it....
The conclusion as far as I can see it is to raise standards outside of the FTOs so the 'input' of student can make better use of the training to be undertaken. The RAF wouldn't want to combine every stage of training from Initial Officer right upto adanvanced weaponary and conversion training into one single college, so why should civilian FTOs.
Until we can't get rid of the 'excessive left wing tendancies' in society then we are prone to lots of bad quality students.
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Until we can't get rid of the 'excessive left wing tendancies' in society then we are prone to lots of bad quality students.
OK So now you have to be a non US citizen and definitely not a leftie if you wan't to fly an aircraft ?
What utter B%ll£%ks !!
OK So now you have to be a non US citizen and definitely not a leftie if you wan't to fly an aircraft ?
What utter B%ll£%ks !!
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It's got nothing to do with US citizens just a fleeting comparison with the general knowledge of the American public.
The silly ambitions of present day schooling is to replace the headmaster with the caring, touchy feely school nurse. These kids are coming out thinking they have a right to be a pilot and right not to apply themselves too hard to anything much in life, etc.....
What we need is a balance not a to-fro of the politcal pendulum and at the moment it's biased to a point that it's threatening core skills like maths! How are we to push any of these school kids into the technolgical aspects of inductry with kind of assault underway? Media studies, drama and arts isn't going to do it.
Once again apply that to the military model would they accept that? .... Well then why is it okay for civil FTOs to do so?
The silly ambitions of present day schooling is to replace the headmaster with the caring, touchy feely school nurse. These kids are coming out thinking they have a right to be a pilot and right not to apply themselves too hard to anything much in life, etc.....
What we need is a balance not a to-fro of the politcal pendulum and at the moment it's biased to a point that it's threatening core skills like maths! How are we to push any of these school kids into the technolgical aspects of inductry with kind of assault underway? Media studies, drama and arts isn't going to do it.
Once again apply that to the military model would they accept that? .... Well then why is it okay for civil FTOs to do so?
Last edited by boogie-nicey; 4th Jul 2006 at 09:18.
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Groundloop,
I would have thought most people turning up to an organisation like OAT will be doing their utmost to pelase and conform anyway. When I was there for a sponsorship briefing, the smiles and volume of laughter everytime the staff cracked a joke seemed pretty indicitive of that
.
Some people are just naturally messy, some a ridiculously tidy. I'm sure in most cases each individual is judged on merit with little regard to this, but there does seem a little too much in the way of hasty judgements about someone apparently based on a slightly less than formal presentation.
I think the example was turning up to their initial medical or CAA exams. I don't feel either of these require exceptional dress. Leave the Ali G bling bling at home by all means, but do the clean and tidy trainers, jeans and collared shirt really indicate a lack of professionalism?
As I said, I don't think dress standard (if accompanied by a polite persona) indicates anything at all. But if we are going to claim it does, then it is just as likely this willignness to conform could represent a very negative trait.
I would have thought most people turning up to an organisation like OAT will be doing their utmost to pelase and conform anyway. When I was there for a sponsorship briefing, the smiles and volume of laughter everytime the staff cracked a joke seemed pretty indicitive of that
.Some people are just naturally messy, some a ridiculously tidy. I'm sure in most cases each individual is judged on merit with little regard to this, but there does seem a little too much in the way of hasty judgements about someone apparently based on a slightly less than formal presentation.
I think the example was turning up to their initial medical or CAA exams. I don't feel either of these require exceptional dress. Leave the Ali G bling bling at home by all means, but do the clean and tidy trainers, jeans and collared shirt really indicate a lack of professionalism?
As I said, I don't think dress standard (if accompanied by a polite persona) indicates anything at all. But if we are going to claim it does, then it is just as likely this willignness to conform could represent a very negative trait.
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Boogie-nicey,
I'd take exception to the comment about left-wing tendencies, but everyone here is more or less on the same track I think.
The reality for most kids though is that there are no jobs for them in technical fields. Aviation couldn't be a better example! Media studies, drama and a whole host of "modern" courses are actually relevent, especially if the intention is to give the majority of school leavers a tertiary education. Studing university level calculus, while important to an engineer, is utterly pointless to 99.9% of the population. While these new courses sound wishy-washy, you might find the course content is exceptionally difficult for the unitiated and do have some practical application..
As for applying the military model to day-to-day schooling; that's all well and good for a certain type of student, but not most. In fact military style learning would be undesireable and incompatible with most normal human beings. It is also a very uncritical style of learning. Having experienced the pitfuls of the Far East's attraction with rote learning and absolutely deferrence to hierarchy, I think it is something we could do without. This has had negative practical implications in a number of East Asian airlines CRM performance.
I'd take exception to the comment about left-wing tendencies, but everyone here is more or less on the same track I think.
The reality for most kids though is that there are no jobs for them in technical fields. Aviation couldn't be a better example! Media studies, drama and a whole host of "modern" courses are actually relevent, especially if the intention is to give the majority of school leavers a tertiary education. Studing university level calculus, while important to an engineer, is utterly pointless to 99.9% of the population. While these new courses sound wishy-washy, you might find the course content is exceptionally difficult for the unitiated and do have some practical application..
As for applying the military model to day-to-day schooling; that's all well and good for a certain type of student, but not most. In fact military style learning would be undesireable and incompatible with most normal human beings. It is also a very uncritical style of learning. Having experienced the pitfuls of the Far East's attraction with rote learning and absolutely deferrence to hierarchy, I think it is something we could do without. This has had negative practical implications in a number of East Asian airlines CRM performance.
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Originally Posted by microfilter
Why many staff in OAT want to belittle you and treat you like an absolute idiot is beyond me. What can this possibly achieve?
It is the typical ADULT - CHILD relationship except in this case OAT - STUDENT
OAT has something the Student wants ( a possible jet job) and the student will do what it takes to get that prize at the end..
So who's at fault? OAT for acting this way or the student for accepting it?
Personally I think neither. Just the way it is...
As Dave Martin says, it wont suit most people and those it does will probably benefit it from it..
If you don't like their style , there are plenty of other places to go that will...
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Some valid points raised on both sides.
One is reminded of the joke about the child at school:
"Miss, I ain't got no pens"
"No Johnny, there aren't any pens, we haven't got any pens, and there are no pens"
"Well who the **** has got all the pens then Miss?!"
VFE.
One is reminded of the joke about the child at school:
"Miss, I ain't got no pens"
"No Johnny, there aren't any pens, we haven't got any pens, and there are no pens"
"Well who the **** has got all the pens then Miss?!"
VFE.
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Do you think it is sensible however for instructors to verbally abuse students with all kinds of expletives and taunt them racially? Views on that would be interesting. If this sort of stuff is in decline in our tough military training establishments, do you feel that FTOs ought to be exempt?
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It's good to see that all young people aren't being tarred with the same brush.
Microfilter,
Obviously it's not sensible for instructors to taunt people racially, but is shouting a few expletives to kick someone up the ar*e really a problem? Has this actually happened, does it happen now, or is your question purely hypothetical?
Let's Kick Racism Out Of Aviation!
Microfilter,
Obviously it's not sensible for instructors to taunt people racially, but is shouting a few expletives to kick someone up the ar*e really a problem?
Has this actually happened, does it happen now, or is your question purely hypothetical?Let's Kick Racism Out Of Aviation!