The Florida Mud-Wrestling Pit!
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Florida JAA PPL training equates to about 1.5% of all JAA PPLs issued
What's the source reference for that statistic? Are you saying JAA (Worldwide) or is it a UK CAA statistic? Conversation, this very morning with CAA, suggested an estimated 25% of UK PPL issue is Floridian - and I would hazard a guess that the UK is one of the major GA players in JAA land (could be wrong, there, too).
<<edit: typo>>
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Florida JAA PPL training equates to about 1.5% of all JAA PPLs issued
How about taking the time to look at the number of viewings on the Florida threads? The interest is far and above that which you would try to have us all believe. If all threads on PPRuNe (the RuNe bit stands for Rumour Network by the way) were factual and new then there would be scant threads and scant posts and the forums would in my view quickly become stagnant and boring!
1.5% of JAA PPLs.
As of the 13th of March 20006 the following countries were mutually recognising each others JAA FCL licences:
Belgium
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Malta
Netherlands)
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
United Kingdom
So 1.5% of JAA licenses being conducted in Florida is a wildly generous figure I drew up on the back of a fag packet.
Its more like 0.5%.
Anyway. Lets just draw our conclusions that Florida based FTOs seem to have recurring problems with staff, qualifications, authorisations and visas and that they draw a disproportionate amount of flame wars on this forum. And move on.
Thanks,
WWW
As of the 13th of March 20006 the following countries were mutually recognising each others JAA FCL licences:
Belgium
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Malta
Netherlands)
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
United Kingdom
So 1.5% of JAA licenses being conducted in Florida is a wildly generous figure I drew up on the back of a fag packet.
Its more like 0.5%.
Anyway. Lets just draw our conclusions that Florida based FTOs seem to have recurring problems with staff, qualifications, authorisations and visas and that they draw a disproportionate amount of flame wars on this forum. And move on.
Thanks,
WWW
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Excuse me...one more...
WWW and Scroggs, if you allow me one more.....
Currently on the first page of Wannabes Forums,
Four major threads on training locations and training providers;
* Naples thread stats. 68 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 133 views/post
*Oxford thread stats. 123 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 78 views/post
*CABAIR thread stats. 110 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 73 views/post
*Jerez thread stats. 124 different usernames
views/post gives avg. 54 views/post
Jerez is the winner with highest number of participants, but most have only one post, similar to Oxford thread.
Naples thread leads with highest views per post, leading to the conclusion that even though the number of participants is relatively low, the interest is unusually high, compared to the other ones that is.
Seems reason enough to keep it open.
I don't think a lot of training is going on in any of the following countries:
Croatia
Iceland
Romania
Slovenia
Turkey
At least they do not have approved FTO's in the US, let alone in Florida.
Haven't read anything about them on Pprune either.
As far as I know all FTO's in the US are sanctioned by the UK CAA.
Apologies for being a pain, had nothing better to do the last 10 min.
Let's move on already......
Currently on the first page of Wannabes Forums,
Four major threads on training locations and training providers;
* Naples thread stats. 68 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 133 views/post
*Oxford thread stats. 123 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 78 views/post
*CABAIR thread stats. 110 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 73 views/post
*Jerez thread stats. 124 different usernames
views/post gives avg. 54 views/post
Jerez is the winner with highest number of participants, but most have only one post, similar to Oxford thread.
Naples thread leads with highest views per post, leading to the conclusion that even though the number of participants is relatively low, the interest is unusually high, compared to the other ones that is.
Seems reason enough to keep it open.
I don't think a lot of training is going on in any of the following countries:
Croatia
Iceland
Romania
Slovenia
Turkey
At least they do not have approved FTO's in the US, let alone in Florida.
Haven't read anything about them on Pprune either.
As far as I know all FTO's in the US are sanctioned by the UK CAA.
Apologies for being a pain, had nothing better to do the last 10 min.
Let's move on already......
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WWW, your statistics are becoming more and more bizarre and clearly grasped out of thin air! Since you use all of the countries recognising each others JAA FCL Licences, are you also saying that the readership of PPRuNe is also distributed amongst all of those countries? I would suggest to you that the majority of the readership of PPRuNe (although I do not have access to the amazingly accurate statistical information available to you) is from the UK. There is undoubtedly a huge interest in Florida training as shown by the statistics provided by JABI, and, although I haven’t checked his statistics, I have little doubt to their accuracy. Do you not agree that most of the FTO’s in the UK are minute in terms of numbers of pilots trained in comparison with the Florida FTO’s ? Again, I do not have the statistics available, but I wouldn’t mind betting my fag packet to your fag packet that a huge proportion of the PPRuNe readership settle for Florida training. Have you ever visited OBA, OFT or NAC? I would suggest that you haven’t since you would then appreciate the well oiled licence factories that these are. In addition of course, there are many other FTO’s in the USA which provide very efficient, reasonably priced and fast flight training.
That statement is about as sweepingly accurate as saying that we should draw our conclusions that UK based FTO’s seem to have recurring problems with staff and closures! - After all, didn’t the one that you instructed at close down after you left?
Anyway. Lets just draw our conclusions that Florida based FTOs seem to have recurring problems with staff, qualifications, authorisations and visas and that they draw a disproportionate amount of flame wars on this forum. And move on.
That statement is about as sweepingly accurate as saying that we should draw our conclusions that UK based FTO’s seem to have recurring problems with staff and closures! - After all, didn’t the one that you instructed at close down after you left?
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Coneja are you really arguing that the Florida FTOs don't seem to have a disproportionate amount of problems/slaggings compared to their European counterparts. Come one. What about all the guff on OBA, the various issues with Naples that have hit the boards over the years. Remember old IFT and the various guises that it and its colourful owner emerged from after taking a wad of wannabees cash with him?
The problem with the Florida FTO's and their staff is well....they are in Florida. There is only a small number of suitably qualified JAA people who can/want to live in Florida and this gives rise to the issue that Naples face now in trying to appoint a replacement. This is the same issue for any FTO that is foreign based and working under JAA. Unfortunately for the wannabee who has a tight time scale and limited funds they may not have the luxury of swapping schools like they could do so easily back in the UK or Europe where the next school will be only a drive away.
Anyway. Lets just draw our conclusions that Florida based FTOs seem to have recurring problems with staff, qualifications, authorisations and visas and that they draw a disproportionate amount of flame wars on this forum. And move on.
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I stayed away from this yeaterday afternoon, and it seems to have become a bit of a talking shop. I may well split this discussion off from the rest of the thread, though I'm not sure that any of it deserves too much more oxygen!
I haven't locked or deleted the Naples thread simply because it is quite illuminating for those who are considering JAA training in Florida - at any of the schools. As Coneja says, it provides a degree of unintentional amusement at the FL schools' expense, and certain leading characters in that area have shown themselves in a fairly unflattering light, which may be instructive for those potential students.
It may be that the way of doing business in the USA encourages this public mud-slinging which has come to be characteristic of the Florida training scene, though we don't see similar behaviour from other parts of the North American training industry. Perhaps it is simply down to a few individuals who can't resist the temptation to score a point or two over their mates over the other side of the airfield (or state). It does seem that the fairly incestuous nature of the FL FTOs (you all seem to have worked for each other at all of the schools at some point) leads to this kind of behaviour, I don't know.
I imagine that the owners and operators of competing schools are loving the way in which a few of you seem keen to sabotage the reputation of your industry, but I also suspect that many of the FL FTO owners wish that you would all just shut up and get on with your jobs! Certainly, the days when contributions from FL-based FIs were welcomed as constructive and helpful seem long gone, as now all we have is yah-boo-sucks point-scoring and name-calling.
It may be funny, but it's also very sad. I'll keep the thread if you want me to, but it seems that to do so may consign some of you to the dole queue.
Scroggs
I haven't locked or deleted the Naples thread simply because it is quite illuminating for those who are considering JAA training in Florida - at any of the schools. As Coneja says, it provides a degree of unintentional amusement at the FL schools' expense, and certain leading characters in that area have shown themselves in a fairly unflattering light, which may be instructive for those potential students.
It may be that the way of doing business in the USA encourages this public mud-slinging which has come to be characteristic of the Florida training scene, though we don't see similar behaviour from other parts of the North American training industry. Perhaps it is simply down to a few individuals who can't resist the temptation to score a point or two over their mates over the other side of the airfield (or state). It does seem that the fairly incestuous nature of the FL FTOs (you all seem to have worked for each other at all of the schools at some point) leads to this kind of behaviour, I don't know.
I imagine that the owners and operators of competing schools are loving the way in which a few of you seem keen to sabotage the reputation of your industry, but I also suspect that many of the FL FTO owners wish that you would all just shut up and get on with your jobs! Certainly, the days when contributions from FL-based FIs were welcomed as constructive and helpful seem long gone, as now all we have is yah-boo-sucks point-scoring and name-calling.
It may be funny, but it's also very sad. I'll keep the thread if you want me to, but it seems that to do so may consign some of you to the dole queue.
Scroggs
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Coneja, the stats are available via the Pprune advertising link;
According to them last 24 hrs:
Europe (63.78%) 898,317
Australia/Oceania (12.83%) 180,645
North America (10.99%) 154,810
Views per country:
United Kingdom (48.26%) 679,669
Australia (11.15%) 157,054
United States (8.12%) 114,385
So vast majority is UK readership.
Without discussion the UK JAA training market has the largest share on Pprune. Therefore UK CAA approved FTO's have a larger share on the board.
Absolutely true, could not agree more.
Close, but not entirely true. The majority of UK CAA approved FTO's are in Florida. As far as I know one in Arizona and one in California.
If you would move six to California or Arizona the same environment would develop.
Absolutely true and as we all know not every break up is a happy one.
Due to the nature of the business and the strict requirements for personnel, "sharing" is almost inevitable. And this happens in the UK also, just because of the number of schools the effect is not as obvious. That is simply called competition and "head-hunting".
Once again, first part is true.
The latter part..............?
Curious as to the thought process and the motivation for that statement.
According to them last 24 hrs:
Europe (63.78%) 898,317
Australia/Oceania (12.83%) 180,645
North America (10.99%) 154,810
Views per country:
United Kingdom (48.26%) 679,669
Australia (11.15%) 157,054
United States (8.12%) 114,385
So vast majority is UK readership.
Without discussion the UK JAA training market has the largest share on Pprune. Therefore UK CAA approved FTO's have a larger share on the board.
I haven't locked or deleted the Naples thread simply because it is quite illuminating for those who are considering JAA training in Florida - at any of the schools. As Coneja says, it provides a degree of unintentional amusement at the FL schools' expense, and certain leading characters in that area have shown themselves in a fairly unflattering light, which may be instructive for those potential students.
It may be that the way of doing business in the USA encourages this public mud-slinging which has come to be characteristic of the Florida training scene, though we don't see similar behaviour from other parts of the North American training industry.
If you would move six to California or Arizona the same environment would develop.
It does seem that the fairly incestuous nature of the FL FTOs (you all seem to have worked for each other at all of the schools at some point) leads to this kind of behaviour, I don't know.
Due to the nature of the business and the strict requirements for personnel, "sharing" is almost inevitable. And this happens in the UK also, just because of the number of schools the effect is not as obvious. That is simply called competition and "head-hunting".
It may be funny, but it's also very sad. I'll keep the thread if you want me to, but it seems that to do so may consign some of you to the dole queue.
The latter part..............?
Curious as to the thought process and the motivation for that statement.
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I noticed NAC are advertising for a CFI in this months edition of Flyer magazine. Like many I thought it was only a matter of time before they announced a new CFI, however with the recruitment process & visa processing times etc, it's likely to be a good few months before NAC are able to offer further JAA training.
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well WWW, JABI seems to have blown your speculative and imaginary statistics out of the water armed with only the statistics off of this very website which you moderate! And DesiPilot is absolutely right with his assertion that you have always been opposed to Florida Training, right from the days when you were instructing at Welshpool when from your own admission, you were opposed to USA flying as being inferior having arrived at that conclusion apparently in a manner similar to the other conclusions which have been subsequently shown to be innacurate.
Ahh yes Jatin, how we lament the passing of Britannia and Biggles the dog! That wasn't a Florida FTO, that was a friendly society!
So far as Scroggs's concerns that "this thread may consign some to the dole queue", I don't think that fear is realistic, Mr Thompson of OBA fame has claimed that the OBA thread has had a positive effect on his business. That may of course be pure bravado on his part!
Ahh yes Jatin, how we lament the passing of Britannia and Biggles the dog! That wasn't a Florida FTO, that was a friendly society!
So far as Scroggs's concerns that "this thread may consign some to the dole queue", I don't think that fear is realistic, Mr Thompson of OBA fame has claimed that the OBA thread has had a positive effect on his business. That may of course be pure bravado on his part!
I'm not sure. It seems to be illustrating the fact that doing you PPL in the USA for a JAA license is fraught with strife. Nevertheless the recent decline in the dollar makes it once again financially advantageous particularly if you do your hours building in the same visit.
As I am totally out of the instructing world now (for over half a decade, heck I've been a 737 Captain for over a year
) and my only interests are in passing on the best advice I think I can, THEN, I think you can conclude that there is no vested interest in my views. Train where you like. Florida is cheap.
Its not what I would tell my Son or Daughter to do though.
A smaller UK school, (if you are a Brit), locallish, with long serving instructors, who can do your PPL CPL and IR just like on an Integrated course is the best way to achieve the ideal balance between training quality and cost in my view.
You all go ahead and try and sell the merits of US JAA training if you want. I haven't stopped you and never will. But you've all made a great job of putting people off and washing your dirty laundry in public..
Cheers
WWW
As I am totally out of the instructing world now (for over half a decade, heck I've been a 737 Captain for over a year
) and my only interests are in passing on the best advice I think I can, THEN, I think you can conclude that there is no vested interest in my views. Train where you like. Florida is cheap.Its not what I would tell my Son or Daughter to do though.
A smaller UK school, (if you are a Brit), locallish, with long serving instructors, who can do your PPL CPL and IR just like on an Integrated course is the best way to achieve the ideal balance between training quality and cost in my view.
You all go ahead and try and sell the merits of US JAA training if you want. I haven't stopped you and never will. But you've all made a great job of putting people off and washing your dirty laundry in public..
Cheers
WWW
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It seems to be illustrating the fact that doing your PPL in the USA for a JAA license is fraught with strife.
Before you say that I have a vested interest, let me say that that would be yet more inaccurate speculation. I am just an end user and now I just take a winter flying holiday there to shake off the UK winter blues!
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Originally Posted by DesiPilot
WWW and Scroggs,
It really doesn't matter if you lock this thread. I guess people will start a new thread with some new title and panting will start all over again.
It really doesn't matter if you lock this thread. I guess people will start a new thread with some new title and panting will start all over again.
The 'dole queue' bit was simply a reference to the fact that this thread is undoubtedly putting people off going to Florida to train - and it would appear to be mainly employees of Floridian FTOs doing the putting-off. That will affect the businesses that you work for - and thus your jobs may be on the line. I think if I were an owner of an FTO and I saw my FIs mudslinging on a public forum, I'd be pretty fed up with them. None of the owners has contacted Pprune over this thread (as far as I'm aware), but I'll bet that they're trying to find out who you all are!
Scroggs
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Scroggs, Congratulations on the first piece of positive moderating that I have seen on this forum! How well you have named the thread too!
I have to say that I am 98% sure of who the biggest mud slingers are. If I'm right, they are not actually employed by the schools who are getting the "hits in the engine rooms" They are in the main instructors who have moved on - reluctantly shall we say?
in many cases! and therefore are throwing missiles with total impunity! Be assured, the owners do know who the perpetrators are but there is little that they can do about it in reality is there? Their postings are in the main truthful although they may choose to grossly exagerate or be "economical with the truth" or dare I say it- fabricate the truth somewhat!
I have to say that I am 98% sure of who the biggest mud slingers are. If I'm right, they are not actually employed by the schools who are getting the "hits in the engine rooms" They are in the main instructors who have moved on - reluctantly shall we say?
in many cases! and therefore are throwing missiles with total impunity! Be assured, the owners do know who the perpetrators are but there is little that they can do about it in reality is there? Their postings are in the main truthful although they may choose to grossly exagerate or be "economical with the truth" or dare I say it- fabricate the truth somewhat!
Mud slinger extraordinaire
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Desipilot, I'm sorry that you have deleted your postings, I believe that Scroggs has in a flash of divine inspirtion taken the heat out of the firefight. He has, show the Florida ramblings to be what they are - mud wrestling bouts and indeed, mud wrestling is for entertainment!
Maybe it will make PPRuNers think and consider their postings more since if I was a moderator, be assured, all of the posts on this thread would have become "stickys" and ineditable. I invite Scroggs to restore your deletions (and anybody elses) so that the thread humour is not lost!
Well done Scroggs!
Maybe it will make PPRuNers think and consider their postings more since if I was a moderator, be assured, all of the posts on this thread would have become "stickys" and ineditable. I invite Scroggs to restore your deletions (and anybody elses) so that the thread humour is not lost!
Well done Scroggs!
