MPL timing (merged)
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MPL timing (merged)
Did a search but couldn't find any info so apologies if this has been discussed before.
Does anybody know what the proposed timing is regarding the introduction of the new MPL license??
It doesn't seem to be discussed too much on pprune but couldn't it represent a fundamental shift in the route to the RHS for many folks out there?
Are we talking 1-2 years, 3-5 years or +5 years before this scheme is meant to be introduced?
Also if the airlines end up preferring this route where does it leave the smaller commerical training schools with limited access to full flight simulators?
Would be a pain to go down the modular route, splash out a load of cash buzzing a SEP and then a light twin around only to then have a brand spanking new MPL licence come out that is flavour of the month with the airlines leaving us low hour "old fATPLs" even further down the pecking order!
Does anybody know what the proposed timing is regarding the introduction of the new MPL license??
It doesn't seem to be discussed too much on pprune but couldn't it represent a fundamental shift in the route to the RHS for many folks out there?
Are we talking 1-2 years, 3-5 years or +5 years before this scheme is meant to be introduced?
Also if the airlines end up preferring this route where does it leave the smaller commerical training schools with limited access to full flight simulators?
Would be a pain to go down the modular route, splash out a load of cash buzzing a SEP and then a light twin around only to then have a brand spanking new MPL licence come out that is flavour of the month with the airlines leaving us low hour "old fATPLs" even further down the pecking order!
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GSB, not sure of too many of the details and sure they've been discussed here before, but I do know MPL is coming into play this year, June I believe but stand open to correction. Predicament you mention is worthy of consideration but will probably lead to another modular/integrated type argument so I'll say no more on subject just now. Maybe try EASA website for info, I do believe they're overseeing the licence hence they should have some. If they don't who else does?!
Even some of the airlines are beginning to get cold feet now that they've realised how much this Microsoft Pilot Licence training would cost.....
For once the French are right - the whole thing is an utter crock. Originally proposed by Lufthansa, which may explain some of the French attitude.
VFR CPL training with MEP Class Rating should be the absolute minimum level of stick-and-rudder skill training - then do all the IR and multi crew stuff in simulators various.
For once the French are right - the whole thing is an utter crock. Originally proposed by Lufthansa, which may explain some of the French attitude.
VFR CPL training with MEP Class Rating should be the absolute minimum level of stick-and-rudder skill training - then do all the IR and multi crew stuff in simulators various.
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It was discussed at some length at:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...+pilot+licence
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...+pilot+licence
The MPL WILL come later this year but will probably only be sponsored by a few of the major carriers on an experimental basis. Lufthansa will be offering the course during the 3rd Q of this year.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...+pilot+licence
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...+pilot+licence
The MPL WILL come later this year but will probably only be sponsored by a few of the major carriers on an experimental basis. Lufthansa will be offering the course during the 3rd Q of this year.
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Timescale
Sep 2005 – JAA starts draft changes to JAR-FCL 1
Oct 2005 - Comments from Contracting States to ICAO
Nov 2005? – JAA completes draft changes to JAR-FCL 1
Jan 2006 ? - JAA goes out to NPA
June 2006? – JAA adoption
Nov 2006 - ICAO effective date
Sep 2007? - First MPLs issued
At least the pilots on the MPL will not need another wedge of cash after qualifying like the fATPL to get them airline qualified........although they wont be able to take granny to Blackpool IFR in the Seneca!
Oct 2005 - Comments from Contracting States to ICAO
Nov 2005? – JAA completes draft changes to JAR-FCL 1
Jan 2006 ? - JAA goes out to NPA
June 2006? – JAA adoption
Nov 2006 - ICAO effective date
Sep 2007? - First MPLs issued
At least the pilots on the MPL will not need another wedge of cash after qualifying like the fATPL to get them airline qualified........although they wont be able to take granny to Blackpool IFR in the Seneca!
Last edited by RVR800; 10th Feb 2006 at 08:42.
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Finding all this MPL lark very confusing!! As someone who is considering starting CPL/IR training in the next few months I am wondering what the implications are. Is the CPL/IR still going to be valid after graduating from an integrated course in say 18 months time, or is it worthwhile postponing training until this licence comes into force?
And I thought it was all confusing BEFORE I'd even heard of MPL.....
And I thought it was all confusing BEFORE I'd even heard of MPL.....
The MPL wil never be a replacement for the conventional route to an ATPL, via CPL/IR. It is likely that the MPL route will be at least as expensive as a modular ATPL and will enable you only to sit in the RHS of a specific multi-pilot aeroplane type (e.g. if you do the MPL on a 737 it will not be valid on any other type or class of aeroplane without considerable extra training).
It is notable that enthusiasm for the MPL among the airlines (except KLM, who started it all) has waned considerably over the last two years and it now looks as if few will take it up. This is significant as entrants to a MPL course must be 'sponsored' by an airline. (In this case 'sponsored' does not imply that the airline will make any financial commitment or guarantee of employment).
It is notable that enthusiasm for the MPL among the airlines (except KLM, who started it all) has waned considerably over the last two years and it now looks as if few will take it up. This is significant as entrants to a MPL course must be 'sponsored' by an airline. (In this case 'sponsored' does not imply that the airline will make any financial commitment or guarantee of employment).
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May I suggest a look at www.ainonline.com and click on
Search Archives. Enter Multi-crew Pilot Licence in the box and you will be referred to the November 2004 issue. Right at the bottom of the contents archived for that issue is an entry "ICAO mulls over multi-crew pilot licence". Click
on that and you will see an article on the subject that I wrote for that issue. It may help to clarify the proposal as it was just over a year ago.
Search Archives. Enter Multi-crew Pilot Licence in the box and you will be referred to the November 2004 issue. Right at the bottom of the contents archived for that issue is an entry "ICAO mulls over multi-crew pilot licence". Click
on that and you will see an article on the subject that I wrote for that issue. It may help to clarify the proposal as it was just over a year ago.
From today's 'Times':
Halving of new pilots' flying time raises fears over safety
By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
THE minimum number of flying hours for trainee commercial pilots is to be halved under new rules that are being rushed through despite protests that the changes will be unsafe.
Newly qualified pilots are to be allowed to take control of airliners after only 70 hours’ flying experience. Under the present rules, pilots must accumulate at least 145 flying hours before being entrusted with carrying passengers.
The new training scheme, due to be introduced by the end of the year, places far more emphasis on flying in simulators. The time that trainees spend in simulators will almost double, from 90 to 170 hours.
The changes are being supported by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), which has come under pressure from Lufthansa, the German airline, to reform pilot licensing. Lufthansa has invested heavily in new simulators and hopes to rent them to pilot training organisations throughout Europe.
But the British Air Line Pilots’ Association argues that a simulator is no substitute for real flying experience. Martin Alder, the head of the association’s safety group and an airline captain with 30 years’ experience, said: “Simulators may be amazingly realistic but you always know you will be going home at the end of the day. There is no substitute for the unpredictability of real flying.
“It is vital for building confidence for dealing with difficult situations.”
Although newly qualified pilots will be accompanied by captains with several years’ experience, there may be occasions when they have to fly the plane alone. Mr Alder said there had been several previous incidents in which a co-pilot’s flying skills had saved hundreds of lives.
A British Airways jumbo jet came within four seconds of plunging into an irrecoverable nosedive in December 2000 after a deranged Kenyan student entered the cockpit and grabbed the controls. As the captain grappled with the intruder, the co-pilot used skills that he had learnt while flying RAF Tornados to bring the aircraft back under control. “His flying skills were key to the recovery and we must preserve similar skills in future pilots,” Mr Alder said.
The changes were partly being pushed through for commercial reasons, he added. There is a growing shortage of pilots in Europe and airlines are keen to streamline the training process.
The pilots’ association has appealed to ICAO and Europe’s Joint Aviation Authorities to hold trials before introducing the licence. “We need to assess the results of trials before exposing the public to this,” Mr Alder said.
Graham Austin, the chief executive of Cabair, one of Britain’s biggest pilot training companies, said that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) had been alerted to the dangers but had failed to act. “The CAA has asked for advice on the new licence but has ignored the replies. By supporting it, the CAA is responding to the demands of the industry at the risk of undermining pilot skills.”
Mr Austin acknowledged that modern airliners had become so automated that pilots spent most of their time monitoring systems rather than handling the controls. But he added: “Flying skills might not be required every day but there will be occasions when they are needed.”
A spokesman for the CAA said that it was “supportive of the principle” of reforming pilot training. Trainee pilots now spent most of their time flying light aircraft. “After 20 hours they are just pootling about from place to place not necessarily learning a lot. Flying a light aircraft is nothing like flying an airliner.
“The simulator allows them to practice extreme situations like engine failures and severe turbulence.”
Halving of new pilots' flying time raises fears over safety
By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
THE minimum number of flying hours for trainee commercial pilots is to be halved under new rules that are being rushed through despite protests that the changes will be unsafe.
Newly qualified pilots are to be allowed to take control of airliners after only 70 hours’ flying experience. Under the present rules, pilots must accumulate at least 145 flying hours before being entrusted with carrying passengers.
The new training scheme, due to be introduced by the end of the year, places far more emphasis on flying in simulators. The time that trainees spend in simulators will almost double, from 90 to 170 hours.
The changes are being supported by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), which has come under pressure from Lufthansa, the German airline, to reform pilot licensing. Lufthansa has invested heavily in new simulators and hopes to rent them to pilot training organisations throughout Europe.
But the British Air Line Pilots’ Association argues that a simulator is no substitute for real flying experience. Martin Alder, the head of the association’s safety group and an airline captain with 30 years’ experience, said: “Simulators may be amazingly realistic but you always know you will be going home at the end of the day. There is no substitute for the unpredictability of real flying.
“It is vital for building confidence for dealing with difficult situations.”
Although newly qualified pilots will be accompanied by captains with several years’ experience, there may be occasions when they have to fly the plane alone. Mr Alder said there had been several previous incidents in which a co-pilot’s flying skills had saved hundreds of lives.
A British Airways jumbo jet came within four seconds of plunging into an irrecoverable nosedive in December 2000 after a deranged Kenyan student entered the cockpit and grabbed the controls. As the captain grappled with the intruder, the co-pilot used skills that he had learnt while flying RAF Tornados to bring the aircraft back under control. “His flying skills were key to the recovery and we must preserve similar skills in future pilots,” Mr Alder said.
The changes were partly being pushed through for commercial reasons, he added. There is a growing shortage of pilots in Europe and airlines are keen to streamline the training process.
The pilots’ association has appealed to ICAO and Europe’s Joint Aviation Authorities to hold trials before introducing the licence. “We need to assess the results of trials before exposing the public to this,” Mr Alder said.
Graham Austin, the chief executive of Cabair, one of Britain’s biggest pilot training companies, said that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) had been alerted to the dangers but had failed to act. “The CAA has asked for advice on the new licence but has ignored the replies. By supporting it, the CAA is responding to the demands of the industry at the risk of undermining pilot skills.”
Mr Austin acknowledged that modern airliners had become so automated that pilots spent most of their time monitoring systems rather than handling the controls. But he added: “Flying skills might not be required every day but there will be occasions when they are needed.”
A spokesman for the CAA said that it was “supportive of the principle” of reforming pilot training. Trainee pilots now spent most of their time flying light aircraft. “After 20 hours they are just pootling about from place to place not necessarily learning a lot. Flying a light aircraft is nothing like flying an airliner.
“The simulator allows them to practice extreme situations like engine failures and severe turbulence.”
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There is a lot in the MPL syllabus that needs to be changed or refined. However, the recognition that the current CPL syllabus is inadequate is long overdue. As the CAA spokesman said,
is uncomfortably close to the truth.
Scroggs
“After 20 hours they are just pootling about from place to place not necessarily learning a lot."
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IFALPA raise concerns over proposed new 'co-pilot' licence
The pilots union, BALPA, is calling for a review of plans to cut the number of flying hours completed by trainee commercial pilots. Under new rules recruits will be able to take control of airliners after 70 hours of real flying experience, at the moment that stands at 145 hours. The Civil Aviation Authority says the number of simulator hours will almost double from 90 to 170 hours.
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The other side of the argument
You could equally say 'Potential Co-Pilots leave major training schools
£70,000 lighter with a frozen 'airline' pilots licence unable to fly unless
someone pays £Loads more to make the pilots transition from GA.....'
£70,000 lighter with a frozen 'airline' pilots licence unable to fly unless
someone pays £Loads more to make the pilots transition from GA.....'
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Also discussed here as well
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210975
General consensus is that it won't be a runner as the French are against it and the airlines are starting to wake up to the fact that it could end up costing them loads of money notwithstanding the shortage of available sim time at the moment.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210975
General consensus is that it won't be a runner as the French are against it and the airlines are starting to wake up to the fact that it could end up costing them loads of money notwithstanding the shortage of available sim time at the moment.
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Its not surprising that Cabair don't like the MPL, they are very poorly placed to deliver it. The MPL will be driven by the TRTOs who have the simulators, not the likes of Cabair and OAT. I think you can expect a fair bit of spin and bluster.
Consider the MPL this way. Which has more value, 10 hours in a B737 sim or 10 hours boring holes in the Florida sky in a C152?
Consider the MPL this way. Which has more value, 10 hours in a B737 sim or 10 hours boring holes in the Florida sky in a C152?
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So, hang on. Some one can be sitting in the RHS of a 737, A320 etc landing at Heathrow but yet cant fly a C150at their local airfield? Seems a bit daft to me? I havent heard much about the "MPL" but surly you should learn to crawl befor you can walk?
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Timing
Sep 2005 – JAA starts draft changes to JAR-FCL 1
Oct 2005 - Comments from Contracting States to ICAO
Nov 2005? – JAA completes draft changes to JAR-FCL 1
Jan 2006 ? - JAA goes out to NPA
June 2006? – JAA adoption
Nov 2006 - ICAO effective date
Sep 2007? - First MPLs issued
Oct 2005 - Comments from Contracting States to ICAO
Nov 2005? – JAA completes draft changes to JAR-FCL 1
Jan 2006 ? - JAA goes out to NPA
June 2006? – JAA adoption
Nov 2006 - ICAO effective date
Sep 2007? - First MPLs issued
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Horses for Courses......
AT least when you finish the course you WILL be able to fly an AIRLINER
That is not so of the frozen 'AIRLINE' pilots Licence which is actally a light aircraft licence requiring more finance and time to get thet elusive first job - although you wont get the light aircraft IR as part of the MPL anymore you will be able to fly a C150 etc
That is not so of the frozen 'AIRLINE' pilots Licence which is actally a light aircraft licence requiring more finance and time to get thet elusive first job - although you wont get the light aircraft IR as part of the MPL anymore you will be able to fly a C150 etc
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Ah, but you need to stop and think about it for a bit. The argument is: Why teach a guy to fly asymmetric in a Seneca when he's never going to do it? Why teach him the details of VPP piston engine operation when he's never going to fly an Arrow? If you design a syllabus to match the skill sets required by an Airbus FO you are not also going to match the skill set required of a Seneca charter pilot. Why not accept you can be licensed for one but not the other?
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I understand what you mean RVR and Alex, but it still just seems abit daft. Surly the real seat of your pants flying is tought at c150 level and thats when the basics are drilled into you. And you build on thoes skills right the way up to line training. I understand that a 747 captin doesnt need to be able to fly a c150 but the two are still flying at the end of the day. I just whould have thought that it would make sence to start at the bottom, work your way up the ladder, building on hours, experience, training with different people and in general getting a decent grasp of the aviation world before you are able to fly a 737 etc.
Like i say, i understand where you are both coming from but its abit like saying to a HGV driver that the can drive his 40t truck but not his mini, the two are still driving, it just doesnt make sence?
Im not trying to have an argument or anything, just trying to understand it from both sides, thats all!
Like i say, i understand where you are both coming from but its abit like saying to a HGV driver that the can drive his 40t truck but not his mini, the two are still driving, it just doesnt make sence?
Im not trying to have an argument or anything, just trying to understand it from both sides, thats all!
...although you wont get the light aircraft IR as part of the MPL anymore you will be able to fly a C150 etc