"Doing a CPL will be a struggle without an IMC."
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"Doing a CPL will be a struggle without an IMC."
Someone said this to me last week. It unnerved me a bit, because I just can't afford an IMC that's just (hopefully) going to become an IR before too long anyway, much as I would have loved to have got one!
Surely they were wrong? Lots of people go straight into the CPL, right? Admittedly I haven't done much instrument work yet, but the worst that could happen is a few more hours in training before taking the CPL test?
Any thoughts based on experience?
Surely they were wrong? Lots of people go straight into the CPL, right? Admittedly I haven't done much instrument work yet, but the worst that could happen is a few more hours in training before taking the CPL test?
Any thoughts based on experience?
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Hi Pen.
Don't worry. Very few of my CPL students have an IMC rating at the start of the course. You will receive at least 10 hours of instrument instruction during the course. The instrument section is fairly basic stuff, such as full panel turns, climbs and descents. Limited panel you will be expected to turn to various headings, and recover from some unusual attitudes. The ten hours of instrument instuction are usually plenty to cover this.
I find people have a bigger struggle coming to terms with the captaincy and decision making aspect of the CPL rather than the instrument flying. If you fly to a good PPL standard, have good airmanship, and approach the course with a good attitude you will do just fine.
One hint for the course - when not flying under simulated IMC, LOOK OUTSIDE!
Good luck with it.
Iain
Don't worry. Very few of my CPL students have an IMC rating at the start of the course. You will receive at least 10 hours of instrument instruction during the course. The instrument section is fairly basic stuff, such as full panel turns, climbs and descents. Limited panel you will be expected to turn to various headings, and recover from some unusual attitudes. The ten hours of instrument instuction are usually plenty to cover this.
I find people have a bigger struggle coming to terms with the captaincy and decision making aspect of the CPL rather than the instrument flying. If you fly to a good PPL standard, have good airmanship, and approach the course with a good attitude you will do just fine.
One hint for the course - when not flying under simulated IMC, LOOK OUTSIDE!
Good luck with it.
Iain
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Thanks, Iain, that's me reassured! (Oh, apart from the good PPL standard bit! 
) Thanks for the PM too - will reply when I've finished being dragged to Savacentre... 
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Gotta agree with Mordacai completely.
Also, remember that an IMC in the JAA system only exists in the UK. So everyone in another JAA state starts their CPL without and IMC. And it really is no problem at all.
Good luck.
Also, remember that an IMC in the JAA system only exists in the UK. So everyone in another JAA state starts their CPL without and IMC. And it really is no problem at all.
Good luck.
Having an IMC rating and a night qualification during your pre-modular course hours building will certainly increase your opportunities for hours building, will enhance your safety and will improve your captaincy.
But if you want to build hours by merely flogging up and down the Floridian coast, it won't.
Your choice - quality of experience or quantity of meaningless hours.....
But if you want to build hours by merely flogging up and down the Floridian coast, it won't.
Your choice - quality of experience or quantity of meaningless hours.....
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Hi Beagle,
You really have a thing about flying abroad...almost to the point of obsession.
I think you missed the point old chap, Penguina's post was asking about the CPL, not hour building. I agree the IMC is a good rating, but she made it clear she didn't have one and couldn't afford one.
By the way, I did hour building in the UK, South Africa, and Florida. Shall I tear those non-UK pages out of my log book? You can waste your hour building wherever you do it. How about 100 hours flying up and down the coast of East Anglia? Thats pretty meaningless too. Jeez.
Penguina, sorry to hijack your thread.
You really have a thing about flying abroad...almost to the point of obsession.
I think you missed the point old chap, Penguina's post was asking about the CPL, not hour building. I agree the IMC is a good rating, but she made it clear she didn't have one and couldn't afford one.
By the way, I did hour building in the UK, South Africa, and Florida. Shall I tear those non-UK pages out of my log book? You can waste your hour building wherever you do it. How about 100 hours flying up and down the coast of East Anglia? Thats pretty meaningless too. Jeez.
Penguina, sorry to hijack your thread.
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Here we go again, Beagle and his prejudice against USA flying. Every body is different and I wish you wouldn't generalise and imply that all Florida flying is 'meaningless'. The states does have weather, and ACT, and controlled airspace etc, and the gravity is just as strong as here in the UK...
OK, sorry - nothing wrong with gaining experience overseas, so long as it consists of more than flying up and down a line feature at endurance speed. Wherever that may be!
So,
delete: flogging up and down the Floridian coast
insert: boring aimless holes in the sky
So,
delete: flogging up and down the Floridian coast
insert: boring aimless holes in the sky
Last edited by BEagle; 4th Feb 2006 at 20:48.
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That's better Beagle! My flying came on leaps and bounds by doing a spot of touring in the States, and only served to broaden and enhance my experience in a way that would have not been possible in the UK.
Back to the original question, I really don't think a lack of IMC rating affects the CPL training. Remember that for the CPL when flying on instruments there is no navigation required, except a position fix but thats dead easy. The exminer just asks for different rates of climb, speeds, headings etc, but no tracking so it doesn't take long to get up to speed.
I only had 4 hours instrument flying when I turned up for my CPL and that was several years earlier, but it really wasn't a problem. Hopefully if you're going commercial you'll have a certain aptitude and ability to learn so you'll pick it all up...
Back to the original question, I really don't think a lack of IMC rating affects the CPL training. Remember that for the CPL when flying on instruments there is no navigation required, except a position fix but thats dead easy. The exminer just asks for different rates of climb, speeds, headings etc, but no tracking so it doesn't take long to get up to speed.
I only had 4 hours instrument flying when I turned up for my CPL and that was several years earlier, but it really wasn't a problem. Hopefully if you're going commercial you'll have a certain aptitude and ability to learn so you'll pick it all up...
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Hang on - there is a tracking section in the CPL - either VOR or NDB. It's not very long, granted, and it can be visual (not "under the hood") - but it is a test requirement.
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I had no IMC. Passed CPL first time with only 20 hours single and 9 hours twin training. By the way, it was during the 9 hours of twin training during the CPL that I gained my twin rating. ( 2 birds with 1 stone )
IR training consisted of 13 hours sim, 17 hours single and 20 hours in a twin. Passed first time without going over.
IMC is a waste of money if you are contemplating doing you IR eventually.
IR training consisted of 13 hours sim, 17 hours single and 20 hours in a twin. Passed first time without going over.
IMC is a waste of money if you are contemplating doing you IR eventually.
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The IMC Rating can be useful
It is however not vital before the CPL and plenty of people pass without it. The thing about the IMC rating is that at the CPL hour building stage the IMC if flying in the UK allows you the confidence to fly in less than perfect weather. On several occasions it got me out of trouble by climbing above awful weather en route or taking the ILS back in. Having already been exposed to horrible weather it was much less intimidating. I felt it was a big factor on the IR as we went straight into route flying without having to muck around learning the basics and spending lots of cash. I passed both the IR and a ME CPL first time. Did the IMC help on the CPL.... marginally. Did it help the IR.....yes.
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I have forgotten the actual statistics but the likely hood of completing a flight as planned in the UK are vastly increased when a pilot holds an IMC rating.
It allows certain priveleges which would be very handy to a pilot who doesnt want to do the ground exams (cpl or atpl) and an IR.
razzele
It allows certain priveleges which would be very handy to a pilot who doesnt want to do the ground exams (cpl or atpl) and an IR.
razzele
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Very Very Slowly
The JAA have issued an 'NPA' on the more 'accessible' IR
This has relevance to this thread as they plan for the 10 hour Instrument Flying that is done as part of the CPL to count towards the IR. (doesnt it already?)
Anyway the document states that they need to address the issue of Europe people flying IFR with a FAA IR instead of the JAA IR. Although the proposals show no cost or time reduction at all as far as I can see. Guess the usual 'stakeholders' dont want to lose out financially.
"Representation from Industry Interested Parties has indicated
that, whilst the course itself is judged to be of approximately
the right length to train a pilot...." Well; what a surprise!
http://www.jaa.nl/publications/npas/...A-FCL%2032.pdf
The IMC rating is excluded from these FTO driven 'changes'. No Credit.
This has relevance to this thread as they plan for the 10 hour Instrument Flying that is done as part of the CPL to count towards the IR. (doesnt it already?)
Anyway the document states that they need to address the issue of Europe people flying IFR with a FAA IR instead of the JAA IR. Although the proposals show no cost or time reduction at all as far as I can see. Guess the usual 'stakeholders' dont want to lose out financially.
"Representation from Industry Interested Parties has indicated
that, whilst the course itself is judged to be of approximately
the right length to train a pilot...." Well; what a surprise!
http://www.jaa.nl/publications/npas/...A-FCL%2032.pdf
The IMC rating is excluded from these FTO driven 'changes'. No Credit.
Last edited by RVR800; 6th Feb 2006 at 08:38.
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Having read through the NPA I get the following impression about the changes. The M/E IR course remains a 55 hour course but is split into two modules one of 10 hours (Basic IF) and one of 45 hours (Procdeural stuff). The basic module can be completed seperately. The basic module is the same as the 10 hours IF on the CPL thus allowing CPL holders a 10 hour credit on the IR (at present they get a 5 hour credit). What is not completely clear is whether or not you are exempted the 10 hours IF on the CPL module if you complete the 10 hour Basic IF module prior to the CPL course, this is implied but I couldnt say for certain.
The basic module requires a course completion certificate from an FTO, the implication (again don't take this as gospel as there is no specific mention of the IMC) is that if you complete an IMC rating at an FTO 10 hours of it can be signed of as the Basic module for the IR thus saving 10 hours on the IR and possibly 10 hours on the CPL. This does all make some sense and the idea seems to be that you must comeplte this basic IF section and once it has been done you do not have to keep repeating it in the CPL and the IR.
The basic module requires a course completion certificate from an FTO, the implication (again don't take this as gospel as there is no specific mention of the IMC) is that if you complete an IMC rating at an FTO 10 hours of it can be signed of as the Basic module for the IR thus saving 10 hours on the IR and possibly 10 hours on the CPL. This does all make some sense and the idea seems to be that you must comeplte this basic IF section and once it has been done you do not have to keep repeating it in the CPL and the IR.
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Written barrier
Re the IMC It says
"....UK IMC Rating concept, although successful in the UK, would
not make a sound basis for progress towards a revised IR
suitable for PPL holders....." Sounds like they've excluded it
Of course one of the major barriers to all this is the written exams.
The FAA IR requires the candidate to sit (at a time of their choosing)
the integrated exam at a test centre on line with an immediate test result
In JAA land the candidate pays more, can't do the exam when they want, have to wait longer for the result and then they expire after a few months.
Its currently costs a lot of time and money to do the training as well. If they dont tackle this there will be no change to the take-up.
Will they canvas student pilots considering FAA IR vs JAA IR BEFORE they make their decision?
"....UK IMC Rating concept, although successful in the UK, would
not make a sound basis for progress towards a revised IR
suitable for PPL holders....." Sounds like they've excluded it
Of course one of the major barriers to all this is the written exams.
The FAA IR requires the candidate to sit (at a time of their choosing)
the integrated exam at a test centre on line with an immediate test result
In JAA land the candidate pays more, can't do the exam when they want, have to wait longer for the result and then they expire after a few months.
Its currently costs a lot of time and money to do the training as well. If they dont tackle this there will be no change to the take-up.
Will they canvas student pilots considering FAA IR vs JAA IR BEFORE they make their decision?
Last edited by RVR800; 6th Feb 2006 at 09:01.
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RVR,
The original proposal was that a 'class 2' IR should be developed for PPL IR pilots. It was proposed that this should be an ameded IMC which was to be a European rating, not just the UK.
This proved to be too complex to implement, e.g. would they have the same privileges as a CPL IR , or lesser.
So it was rejected - hence the comment in the JAA document "....UK IMC Rating concept, although successful in the UK, would not make a sound basis for progress towards a revised IR suitable for PPL holders....."
However, I agree with LFS "the implication is that if you complete an IMC rating at an FTO 10 hours of it can be signed of as the Basic module for the IR thus saving 10 hours on the IR ...". I can see that happening - but what about people who already hold an IMC? Will they be allowed to retrospectively get a Basic Module Course Completion Certificate - I doubt it somehow!
Linda
The original proposal was that a 'class 2' IR should be developed for PPL IR pilots. It was proposed that this should be an ameded IMC which was to be a European rating, not just the UK.
This proved to be too complex to implement, e.g. would they have the same privileges as a CPL IR , or lesser.
So it was rejected - hence the comment in the JAA document "....UK IMC Rating concept, although successful in the UK, would not make a sound basis for progress towards a revised IR suitable for PPL holders....."
However, I agree with LFS "the implication is that if you complete an IMC rating at an FTO 10 hours of it can be signed of as the Basic module for the IR thus saving 10 hours on the IR ...". I can see that happening - but what about people who already hold an IMC? Will they be allowed to retrospectively get a Basic Module Course Completion Certificate - I doubt it somehow!
Linda
