BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
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I am a qualified pilot with no job.
Borrowed money from family and the other part came from myself , ...at the end of my training all I got was the little jobs in aviation, skydiver, (we have to start somwhere, this is what "they" told me"
now airlines dont look at small guys and hard worker pilot like me with only 1000-2000h of cessna 150....
by chance I never put myself in big trouble with the justice!and my family will probably never seen their money again!
my salary was so low that when my company (ies) went bankrupt, all I got was the money from the government.
in fact I make more money from my unemployment office than working as a pilot.
It was hard to explain them, that if they wanted really to help me to get a job back, it was to pay me a type rating ...
the answer was"OUT OF QUESTION,ARE YOU MAD?, AT LEAST DO YOU HAVE A JOB CONTRACT??"!!!!!
" NO I DON'T, THEY WANT THE MONEY FIRST WITH NO GUARANTY"
anyway, if you can not borrow and have 500jet before 28, it will be to late.so airlines put the whole community in danger, and they are the one who are creating this mess.
Borrowed money from family and the other part came from myself , ...at the end of my training all I got was the little jobs in aviation, skydiver, (we have to start somwhere, this is what "they" told me"
now airlines dont look at small guys and hard worker pilot like me with only 1000-2000h of cessna 150....
by chance I never put myself in big trouble with the justice!and my family will probably never seen their money again!
my salary was so low that when my company (ies) went bankrupt, all I got was the money from the government.
in fact I make more money from my unemployment office than working as a pilot.
It was hard to explain them, that if they wanted really to help me to get a job back, it was to pay me a type rating ...
the answer was"OUT OF QUESTION,ARE YOU MAD?, AT LEAST DO YOU HAVE A JOB CONTRACT??"!!!!!
" NO I DON'T, THEY WANT THE MONEY FIRST WITH NO GUARANTY"
anyway, if you can not borrow and have 500jet before 28, it will be to late.so airlines put the whole community in danger, and they are the one who are creating this mess.
Last edited by A320rider; 29th Oct 2005 at 21:24.
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First things 1st to answer the question posed above "Would you deny an addict methadone?"
Errm yep I'd lock them in a cell and make them go cold turkey at far less cost to the tax payer and then give them Beta blockers (cost a few pounds) so that should they ever try to use drugs again they become violently ill. I pay tax so that the infrastructure of this country can be looked after not so the idol, lazy and selfish can spend it in rehab but that's another thread....
Back to the thread though, I left university £15k in debt and it took me until my 30s to pay of my student debt. On leaving the forces I spent £70k on flying training all of which was borrowed unsecured.
A similar story to those above was that after a year of instructing I had to stop flying to earn enough to not go bankrupt. I have managed to get married and buy a house with my wife whilst having this debt outstanding only because I stopped flying.
The problem that we now have is that whilst we can afford to live on the £120k we earn between us my wife is an accountant and bankruptcy is not an option as she would be unable to practice and we ould loose our home.
Renting is more expensive than a mortgage where we live and we have no relatives within 150miles that would enable us to keep our jobs.
We cannot afford to live on a less than £120k for the next 6 years and whilst my wife currently contributes half there are not many 1st officers positions that pay enough. So what do I do?
Errm yep I'd lock them in a cell and make them go cold turkey at far less cost to the tax payer and then give them Beta blockers (cost a few pounds) so that should they ever try to use drugs again they become violently ill. I pay tax so that the infrastructure of this country can be looked after not so the idol, lazy and selfish can spend it in rehab but that's another thread....
Back to the thread though, I left university £15k in debt and it took me until my 30s to pay of my student debt. On leaving the forces I spent £70k on flying training all of which was borrowed unsecured.
A similar story to those above was that after a year of instructing I had to stop flying to earn enough to not go bankrupt. I have managed to get married and buy a house with my wife whilst having this debt outstanding only because I stopped flying.
The problem that we now have is that whilst we can afford to live on the £120k we earn between us my wife is an accountant and bankruptcy is not an option as she would be unable to practice and we ould loose our home.
Renting is more expensive than a mortgage where we live and we have no relatives within 150miles that would enable us to keep our jobs.
We cannot afford to live on a less than £120k for the next 6 years and whilst my wife currently contributes half there are not many 1st officers positions that pay enough. So what do I do?
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BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Well it’s been over one and a half years since qualifying and still no job and yet the debts keep mounting. It’s got to such a point now that I am really struggling to keep my head above water and I can’t seem to get employment that is well enough paid to service my debts. The (F)ATPL can be a real hindrance on your CV to non-aviation employers! 
Anyway, I was just wondering if any of you may have been in the same position as me and have been down the bankruptcy route. I’ve read much about it on www.insolvency.gov.uk but I’d just like to get some personal feedback or advice.
Thanks folks!
NB. I know that many do not agree with bankruptcy as it is this that has turned HSBC away from funding us modular guys; and I wholly agree. However, I borrowed the money with the absolute intention or repaying my debt to the bank, as without their assistance I would not posses that little blue book. But with the airlines unwillingness to consider low hours pilots and their increasing reliance on us funding our own type ratings, I have been pushed into a very tight corner.
!
Anyway, I was just wondering if any of you may have been in the same position as me and have been down the bankruptcy route. I’ve read much about it on www.insolvency.gov.uk but I’d just like to get some personal feedback or advice.
Thanks folks!
NB. I know that many do not agree with bankruptcy as it is this that has turned HSBC away from funding us modular guys; and I wholly agree. However, I borrowed the money with the absolute intention or repaying my debt to the bank, as without their assistance I would not posses that little blue book. But with the airlines unwillingness to consider low hours pilots and their increasing reliance on us funding our own type ratings, I have been pushed into a very tight corner.
!
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
The (F)ATPL can be a real hindrance on your CV to non-aviation employers!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
I would imagine quite a few of us guys have been pushed into the tight corner you're now experiencing LBB. Most, one suspects, keep things quiet to save face however, I myself find the task of getting flying work nigh on an impossibility owing to the same factors you state - namely type ratings. When some of us started our training it was not de-rigour to budget for a type rating at the end of the course and subsequently as a result have found ourselves knocking on the scrapheap door as funds simply do not exist to obtain one.
No use ranting and no use raving but my views these days are that if more people went into this game with their eyes a little wider open then perhaps they'd save a lot of heartache in the long run.
Stick to plumbing I say.
VFE.
No use ranting and no use raving but my views these days are that if more people went into this game with their eyes a little wider open then perhaps they'd save a lot of heartache in the long run.
Stick to plumbing I say.
VFE.
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
I have a question that is secondary to the initial posting.
Having an fATPL does seem a hindrance on the C.V. in getting a non-flying job...however even if you hide the fact that you have one; how does one explain away 1.5 years of training (or whatever)?
For what it's worth, I think there was a large thread on this topic some time back, perhaps you'll get lucky with a search.
Good luck, and all the best.
Having an fATPL does seem a hindrance on the C.V. in getting a non-flying job...however even if you hide the fact that you have one; how does one explain away 1.5 years of training (or whatever)?
For what it's worth, I think there was a large thread on this topic some time back, perhaps you'll get lucky with a search.
Good luck, and all the best.
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Little blue book,
Many of us are in the same position. I can only say it is brave of you to say what is really happening, a prime example being yourself.
My advice to new wannabies - think twice before starting of a career for this industry, the amount of cash you need to do it would feed a small African nation! At the moment they need experienced pilots, but the industry will not get them, if they do not assist in the training costs to some extent for the newly qualified pilots to start to become experienced pilots.
The thread link on bankruptcy is:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...t&pagenumber=1
You will find many have went belly up before you, but there is good detail and advice on the topic here.
Regards the gap in your career, as Super Pilot mentioned, you don't have to disclose it. Did you fly abroad? Why not just say you wanted to become more cultured and took a year out to travel abroad?
Best of luck.
Many of us are in the same position. I can only say it is brave of you to say what is really happening, a prime example being yourself.
My advice to new wannabies - think twice before starting of a career for this industry, the amount of cash you need to do it would feed a small African nation! At the moment they need experienced pilots, but the industry will not get them, if they do not assist in the training costs to some extent for the newly qualified pilots to start to become experienced pilots.
The thread link on bankruptcy is:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...t&pagenumber=1
You will find many have went belly up before you, but there is good detail and advice on the topic here.
Regards the gap in your career, as Super Pilot mentioned, you don't have to disclose it. Did you fly abroad? Why not just say you wanted to become more cultured and took a year out to travel abroad?
Best of luck.
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Thanks for the link PW. Some good stuff on there.
Seems that there are quite a few of us all in the same situation which does not make happy reading. Bankruptcy isn't a nice option but (for some) it eventually becomes the only option left to take.
Cheers lads
Some good stuff on there.Seems that there are quite a few of us all in the same situation which does not make happy reading. Bankruptcy isn't a nice option but (for some) it eventually becomes the only option left to take.
Cheers lads
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
if more people file bankruptcy, maybe one day we will see companies paying their pilots instead to be paid.
if we don't find a job, it is simply because this market is screwed!
I would not hesitate to file bankruptcy if I was in debt and start from scratch.
you have worked and studied hard for your license, and now they want more money from you(MCC, type rating, second type rating, pay for 500 hours, pay again for 200h, etc..)if you are in debt, it is NOT your fault!
companiers do not own you a job,but you have the right to make money with your license .And you have the right to get your head out of this s....
if we don't find a job, it is simply because this market is screwed!
I would not hesitate to file bankruptcy if I was in debt and start from scratch.
you have worked and studied hard for your license, and now they want more money from you(MCC, type rating, second type rating, pay for 500 hours, pay again for 200h, etc..)if you are in debt, it is NOT your fault!
companiers do not own you a job,but you have the right to make money with your license .And you have the right to get your head out of this s....
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Originally Posted by A320rider
if you are in debt, it is NOT your fault!
companiers do not own you a job,but you have the right to make money with your license
companiers do not own you a job,but you have the right to make money with your license
And to be frank, as anyone will know, if you take a loan from a bank, then you ARE in debt, and it is on your own head. It's sickening nothing happens for low hours guys, but then its always a choice to take the plunge and undertake ATPL training. No-one forces any of us to do it! Sad but true I'm afraid
Keep your chins up folks
AT
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
As Atreyu points out to A320rider,
You take on a loan; therefore, it is your responsibility to make sure you can make the repayments. If there are those out there taking on more credit to pay for a type rating and or line training, then so be it. But it is there responsibility to repay the money and decide if it is worth the financial investment.
Many people for one reason or another find themselves falling behind with payments, the classic situation is becoming unexpectedly unemployed. This places a high degree of stress on your life as banks and lending agents are straight on your case day after day for there money.
The thread mentioned earlier is a good start, but think long and hard before declaring bankruptcy.
Happy New Year all
Mr W
You take on a loan; therefore, it is your responsibility to make sure you can make the repayments. If there are those out there taking on more credit to pay for a type rating and or line training, then so be it. But it is there responsibility to repay the money and decide if it is worth the financial investment.
Many people for one reason or another find themselves falling behind with payments, the classic situation is becoming unexpectedly unemployed. This places a high degree of stress on your life as banks and lending agents are straight on your case day after day for there money.
The thread mentioned earlier is a good start, but think long and hard before declaring bankruptcy.
Happy New Year all
Mr W
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
If you can avoid it at all, avoid it!
If you declare bankrupt then you will have a huge dirty mark on what is left of your credit rating for around 5 years. Should you be offered a flying job in that time, how will you meet the bond? You won't get a loan from a bank, therefore possibly no job. Viscious circle.
If you declare bankrupt then you will have a huge dirty mark on what is left of your credit rating for around 5 years. Should you be offered a flying job in that time, how will you meet the bond? You won't get a loan from a bank, therefore possibly no job. Viscious circle.
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Insolvency isn't the miracle cure by any means. I would imagine it would be a struggle to keep a bank account open (stand to be corrected on that one) Also taking anything on Finance, a car, a house even a TV would be impossible as you would have no credit rating, Unless your partner has credit and can take on repayments on your house and/or car then life would become quite difficult.
Just a thought
AT
Just a thought
AT
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
There is the Individual Voluntary Arrangement too
worth considering if you really are in deep water
http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/...-procedure.htm
worth considering if you really are in deep water
http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/...-procedure.htm
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
If the courts think that it is possible that you will land yourself with a job paying a large salary, then they can claw back some off there losses from that income, by extending the length of your bankruptcy. Also when they investigate your application for bankruptcy they will want a very good reason why you have taken on a loan (Like paying for a type rating and line training) and then immediately filed your papers. Also they can extend your term if they think you are trying to pull a fast one.
Future assets will be lost: Any asset that might have been acquired during the term of the bankruptcy, such as inheritances, insurance payouts/maturities, equity in property, windfalls, etc., and possibly pension income. Kiss them all good bye. Remember Lie to the courts, and you DO GO TO JAIL. Then try to get a job with a criminal record.
Every Charted accountant and the citizen’s advice (CAB) will tell you never never go down the route of bankruptcy. EVER. But one of the exception’s to this is if your debts are substantial, a figure of £200,000 or more. Otherwise it just isn’t worth it. The CAB are free and impartial always use them; they are there to help you and probably guide you towards the best solution for you , one of these can be an Individual Voluntary Arrangement.
After receiving your papers from the bankruptcy court, declaring you officially discharged from your term of bankruptcy its still not over.
You can officially apply to get a bank account but finding a bank that will allow you to open one will be difficult and then, only with a number of restrictions.
You CAN get loans BUT as with the bank account, finding a lender will prove very difficult and then the apr will be so high you’ll need to use a pair of binoculars. Don’t forget that mobile phones and internet providers etc. all require a credit search, so your credit rating lasting for about 5 or 6 years, will put off any suppliers. There is now such a large amount of credit consumers in debt that banks are trying to share your information between them to help prevent people from going to much into debt.
It doesn’t stop there as many application forms and some visas ask the dreaded question
Have you EVER been declared bankrupt?
If you’re lucky some forms only ask the question
Have you ever in the LAST 6 years been declared bankrupt?
So from a good friend of mine not involved in aviation but who has been through it, his comment is
Seek out free impartial advice CAB ,
Communicate with the banks and lenders, write to them and call them,make them aware of your current situation asap,
and try everything NOT to go bankrupt.
Mr W
Future assets will be lost: Any asset that might have been acquired during the term of the bankruptcy, such as inheritances, insurance payouts/maturities, equity in property, windfalls, etc., and possibly pension income. Kiss them all good bye. Remember Lie to the courts, and you DO GO TO JAIL. Then try to get a job with a criminal record.
Every Charted accountant and the citizen’s advice (CAB) will tell you never never go down the route of bankruptcy. EVER. But one of the exception’s to this is if your debts are substantial, a figure of £200,000 or more. Otherwise it just isn’t worth it. The CAB are free and impartial always use them; they are there to help you and probably guide you towards the best solution for you , one of these can be an Individual Voluntary Arrangement.
After receiving your papers from the bankruptcy court, declaring you officially discharged from your term of bankruptcy its still not over.
You can officially apply to get a bank account but finding a bank that will allow you to open one will be difficult and then, only with a number of restrictions.
You CAN get loans BUT as with the bank account, finding a lender will prove very difficult and then the apr will be so high you’ll need to use a pair of binoculars. Don’t forget that mobile phones and internet providers etc. all require a credit search, so your credit rating lasting for about 5 or 6 years, will put off any suppliers. There is now such a large amount of credit consumers in debt that banks are trying to share your information between them to help prevent people from going to much into debt.
It doesn’t stop there as many application forms and some visas ask the dreaded question
Have you EVER been declared bankrupt?
If you’re lucky some forms only ask the question
Have you ever in the LAST 6 years been declared bankrupt?
So from a good friend of mine not involved in aviation but who has been through it, his comment is
Seek out free impartial advice CAB ,
Communicate with the banks and lenders, write to them and call them,make them aware of your current situation asap,
and try everything NOT to go bankrupt.
Mr W
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Mr. Wonka,
You aren't being helpful at all, the last thing anyone wants to here is scaremungering 'go to jail/pulling a fast one/kiss everything goodbye/on your case day after day for there money' rubbish! Where do you get the magic figure £200k from, is it from your 'good friend' - one word rubbish! I do agree with your statement about the CAB, giving impartial and SUPPORTIVE advice, which you are not. I also agree about doing something about it.
Bankruptcy is the term given when you cannot afford to pay your creditors, and they take you to court to claim back assets you may have. You do not need to be £200k or more to claim bankruptcy, trust deeds are the better option. If the Bank place a 'seriatim' on you and want the whole lot back then take you to court and you can't pay then you go through the process of bankruptcy if you have assets, otherwise I believe it is a discharge. However if you have a job and can pay back any amount per month then a Trust Deed is the preferable option, where you have a reasonable amount to live on while you pay back a reasonable amount per month over a 3 year period if you are in Scotland or a 1 year period if you are in England.
The CAB deal with your case and liase with the creditors on your behalf.
Strepsils - There are other jobs you could do whilst paying back a reasonable amount of money. You can also have a post office account, which your salary can be paid into.
Little Blue Book - Go to the CAB they will give you proper advice and will keep you right. It isn't worth worrying about and having ill health as a result, as I'm sure Mr. Wonka would like. I'm sure you won't want more loans/cards after this anyway. I've heard that mortgages are still available at maybe 1% extra, and you can still get credit after having been in this situation, not that you'd probably want it anyway!
Good Luck.
You aren't being helpful at all, the last thing anyone wants to here is scaremungering 'go to jail/pulling a fast one/kiss everything goodbye/on your case day after day for there money' rubbish! Where do you get the magic figure £200k from, is it from your 'good friend' - one word rubbish! I do agree with your statement about the CAB, giving impartial and SUPPORTIVE advice, which you are not. I also agree about doing something about it.
Bankruptcy is the term given when you cannot afford to pay your creditors, and they take you to court to claim back assets you may have. You do not need to be £200k or more to claim bankruptcy, trust deeds are the better option. If the Bank place a 'seriatim' on you and want the whole lot back then take you to court and you can't pay then you go through the process of bankruptcy if you have assets, otherwise I believe it is a discharge. However if you have a job and can pay back any amount per month then a Trust Deed is the preferable option, where you have a reasonable amount to live on while you pay back a reasonable amount per month over a 3 year period if you are in Scotland or a 1 year period if you are in England.
The CAB deal with your case and liase with the creditors on your behalf.
Strepsils - There are other jobs you could do whilst paying back a reasonable amount of money. You can also have a post office account, which your salary can be paid into.
Little Blue Book - Go to the CAB they will give you proper advice and will keep you right. It isn't worth worrying about and having ill health as a result, as I'm sure Mr. Wonka would like. I'm sure you won't want more loans/cards after this anyway. I've heard that mortgages are still available at maybe 1% extra, and you can still get credit after having been in this situation, not that you'd probably want it anyway!
Good Luck.
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Originally Posted by Preston Watson
You do not need to be £200k or more to claim bankruptcy,
AT
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
get a job on the gropund around the aircraft such as a baggage handler or Dispatcher......I did it and had 2 interviews within 2 weeks of finishing my MCC........Yeah its crap but you lrean alot and make great contacts!
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Bankruptcy is a very serious business and not to be taken lightly. The affects on your financial life are long-lasting and deep. Mr Wonka's advice and tone are, in my opinion, entirely sound - and this topic is timely, given the ever-increasing costs of obtaining your licences. The figures may vary depending on who advises you, but, to all wannabes, do not think that bankruptcy offers an easy way out!
That said, if you really do face a financial dead-end, go and see the Citizens' Advice Bureau soonest. Talk to your bank and any other creditors. Do not go deep and silent; you will regret it later.
Scroggs
That said, if you really do face a financial dead-end, go and see the Citizens' Advice Bureau soonest. Talk to your bank and any other creditors. Do not go deep and silent; you will regret it later.
Scroggs