CPL/IR not Frozen ATPL ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
CPL/IR not Frozen ATPL ?
Have a bit of a hypothetical question......
If I held a JAA CPL/Multi IR and MCC but NOT a frozen ATPL would I still be employable by an airline ?? (IE Expired ATPL exams)
Reason I'm asking is that it seems to me that the chances are you'd be a few years flying before ready to upgrade to an ATPL anyway so whats to stop you working as an FO and retaking the ATPL theory at your leisure ??
Can anyone shed any light on this for me please ??
Regards
UA
If I held a JAA CPL/Multi IR and MCC but NOT a frozen ATPL would I still be employable by an airline ?? (IE Expired ATPL exams)
Reason I'm asking is that it seems to me that the chances are you'd be a few years flying before ready to upgrade to an ATPL anyway so whats to stop you working as an FO and retaking the ATPL theory at your leisure ??
Can anyone shed any light on this for me please ??
Regards
UA
Moving On
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UA,
I think you are confusing some of the terminology. There is no such thing in reality as a fATPL. Once you have completed your CPL/IR your ATPL exams are safe for 7 years, the 7 year period restarts every time you renew your IR. So effectively as long as you don't let your IR lapse by more than 7 years your exams should be fine. Once you start working as an FO you will have a multi crew IR which will be kept current every year, so agin no problems with your exams.
I think you are confusing some of the terminology. There is no such thing in reality as a fATPL. Once you have completed your CPL/IR your ATPL exams are safe for 7 years, the 7 year period restarts every time you renew your IR. So effectively as long as you don't let your IR lapse by more than 7 years your exams should be fine. Once you start working as an FO you will have a multi crew IR which will be kept current every year, so agin no problems with your exams.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: In an office job
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UA correct me if Im wrong.
I think UA is saying something along the lines of:
Done the ATPL theory then the CPL
ATPL theory expires
Redo IR theory exams then do the IR
therefore you have a CPL/IR but it is not the ATPL(f) so to speak as your ATPL theory had expired before you did the IR.
This is where the JAR system becomes very grey in reasoning. I wander if the IR review will take this area into account.
mint
I think UA is saying something along the lines of:
Done the ATPL theory then the CPL
ATPL theory expires
Redo IR theory exams then do the IR
therefore you have a CPL/IR but it is not the ATPL(f) so to speak as your ATPL theory had expired before you did the IR.
This is where the JAR system becomes very grey in reasoning. I wander if the IR review will take this area into account.
mint
Moving On
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mintflavour,
In that case you are correct it is a grey area. As doing the IR exams seperatley do allow you to have an IR but not an ATPL. What you would need (although does not exist) would be some sort of ATPL 'upgrade' exams to go from just the CPL exams to an ATPL without having to do all 14 exams. There should be no problem working for an airline as an FO with just a CPL/IR though.
In that case you are correct it is a grey area. As doing the IR exams seperatley do allow you to have an IR but not an ATPL. What you would need (although does not exist) would be some sort of ATPL 'upgrade' exams to go from just the CPL exams to an ATPL without having to do all 14 exams. There should be no problem working for an airline as an FO with just a CPL/IR though.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Bang on Mint...that's exactly where I'm coming from.
The whole "expired ATPL theory but holding a CPL" area is indeed a very grey area somewhat like our local Harr.....
The CAA don't ever reply to my questions and I guess much is up in the air just now given the IR review (about time!)
Getting back to the original question however, I cant see any reason why I couldn't hold an FO position? Have a CPL so entitled to work as a pilot, would hold a valid multi IR and MCC so entitled to operate multi crew in Airways etc.
Am I missing something from an operators point of view however for insurance reasons etc??
The whole "expired ATPL theory but holding a CPL" area is indeed a very grey area somewhat like our local Harr.....
The CAA don't ever reply to my questions and I guess much is up in the air just now given the IR review (about time!)
Getting back to the original question however, I cant see any reason why I couldn't hold an FO position? Have a CPL so entitled to work as a pilot, would hold a valid multi IR and MCC so entitled to operate multi crew in Airways etc.
Am I missing something from an operators point of view however for insurance reasons etc??
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One issue here is that when one looks at Joe Bloggs CPL/IR licence there is no indication as to whether the ATPL theory credits are valid is there ?
So I could recruit a person without an fATPL merely a CPL/IR unless I rang the CAA to check - but if I was recruiting a pilot into Lufthansa would I know whom to call etc etc ..
This whole issue is connected with the fact that there is no such thing as a FATPL licence only an ATPL
So I could recruit a person without an fATPL merely a CPL/IR unless I rang the CAA to check - but if I was recruiting a pilot into Lufthansa would I know whom to call etc etc ..
This whole issue is connected with the fact that there is no such thing as a FATPL licence only an ATPL
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
That thought did cross my mind actually RVR, fortunately I'm not daft enough to try such a thing but you can bet there will be others that do.
Seems we've discovered a rather interesting loophole that could be very embarrassing for the CAA.
Seems we've discovered a rather interesting loophole that could be very embarrassing for the CAA.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,806
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The constraint is that you need to have passed ATPL theory to start a JAA type rating for a multi-pilot type. Although the ATPL theory pass doesn't show on your licence it does show up on the CAA's computers - if you tried to do a course without having passed the exams at ATPL level they wouldn't issue the type rating.
Because the regulations relating to the type rating do not require ATPL theory to be current in any way - you just have to have passed ATPL theory at some stage in the past - you can get a job with an airline holding only a CPL IR with expired ATPL exams and then, when you have the hours and before you get command, you can retake the ATPL exams.
Because the regulations relating to the type rating do not require ATPL theory to be current in any way - you just have to have passed ATPL theory at some stage in the past - you can get a job with an airline holding only a CPL IR with expired ATPL exams and then, when you have the hours and before you get command, you can retake the ATPL exams.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Thanks Alex, thats excellent news!
Now all I have to do is wait until JAA have decided what the new IR course is going to consist of. Hopefully by the time I'm ready for an ATPL the JAA with have devised an upgrade course from CPL theory to ATPL theory.
If only the JAA had thought this out in the first place.......
Now all I have to do is wait until JAA have decided what the new IR course is going to consist of. Hopefully by the time I'm ready for an ATPL the JAA with have devised an upgrade course from CPL theory to ATPL theory.
If only the JAA had thought this out in the first place.......
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,806
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
..and they are indeed considering such a course. Unfortunately the JAA will start to dis-establish itself early next year (reference) and cease to function by the summer so there's more than a fighting chance it will still be work in progress when all progress stops.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Slack feckers !!
Oh well, I've a CAA PPL and a JAA CPL so lets see if I can go for the hatrick and get myself an ATPL from a different 'authority' !!!
Oh well, I've a CAA PPL and a JAA CPL so lets see if I can go for the hatrick and get myself an ATPL from a different 'authority' !!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
And what outfit would that be *bob* ?? 
Just have to throw a few more charters their way and keep pouring champers down the relevent crews necks to put in a good word for me !!
Just have to throw a few more charters their way and keep pouring champers down the relevent crews necks to put in a good word for me !!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Depends if you write "CPL/IR Expired ATPL Theory" on your application or just "CPL/IR".
If you get to the interview stage then you can get the chance to put your case across. I had very unfortunate reasons why mine expired but until I get 1500hours as far as I'm concerned I have the same licence as every other CPL/IR out there, Frozen ATPL or not.
I've a funny feeling that by the time I do come to upgrade to an ATPL the system will have changed once again. Hopefully by that point there will be an easier option than having to resit all 14 exams again!!
If you get to the interview stage then you can get the chance to put your case across. I had very unfortunate reasons why mine expired but until I get 1500hours as far as I'm concerned I have the same licence as every other CPL/IR out there, Frozen ATPL or not.
I've a funny feeling that by the time I do come to upgrade to an ATPL the system will have changed once again. Hopefully by that point there will be an easier option than having to resit all 14 exams again!!
