Going it alone - getting an AOC etc
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Going it alone - getting an AOC etc
Hi Folks,
I've been reading these forums all night and there is a wealth of knowledge here so I'm hoping I might get some help...
I'm in a fairly good position financially (mortgage paid etc) and am quite happy with my life, but I love flying and at 40 am way too old to train as an airline pilot.
I have 200+ hours as a PPL and would like to justify my time spent flying to my wife. So here's the plan...
I go to oxford (or similar FTO) to get my CPL/IR
Then I buy a 4 seater plane with Public Cat CofA
I then approach the CAA for an Air operators certificate and then hey presto, I can take peope flying (sight seeing, trips round the coast etc).
My questions is thus-
Is the above legal/feasable (I don't need to earn a fortune from this - just breaking even would suffice) ?
Is a CPL/IR enough for this or would I need an atpl ?
Who could give me advise on getting an AOC and setting up the business ? (I have about 100k at my disposal - is this enough to satisfy the CAA with regard to maintence/safety etc) ?
Any help would be gratefully received
Thanks for your time
Steve
I've been reading these forums all night and there is a wealth of knowledge here so I'm hoping I might get some help...
I'm in a fairly good position financially (mortgage paid etc) and am quite happy with my life, but I love flying and at 40 am way too old to train as an airline pilot.
I have 200+ hours as a PPL and would like to justify my time spent flying to my wife. So here's the plan...
I go to oxford (or similar FTO) to get my CPL/IR
Then I buy a 4 seater plane with Public Cat CofA
I then approach the CAA for an Air operators certificate and then hey presto, I can take peope flying (sight seeing, trips round the coast etc).
My questions is thus-
Is the above legal/feasable (I don't need to earn a fortune from this - just breaking even would suffice) ?
Is a CPL/IR enough for this or would I need an atpl ?
Who could give me advise on getting an AOC and setting up the business ? (I have about 100k at my disposal - is this enough to satisfy the CAA with regard to maintence/safety etc) ?
Any help would be gratefully received
Thanks for your time
Steve
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Boy if I had 100k at my disposal I could think of many better things to do with it!
I think the CAA cost for setting up an AOC is over 10k. The work involved in it though should not be taken lightly. I think you can pay companies to write an OPS manual for you, but I should think that is very expensive!
I'm sure somebody else here will be in a far better position to advise you than me, but I think you would probably just be chucking money away. I would use your cash to really enjoy doing the sort of flying that most people can't afford to, something unusual and fun.
Anyway, good luck whatever you do.
I think the CAA cost for setting up an AOC is over 10k. The work involved in it though should not be taken lightly. I think you can pay companies to write an OPS manual for you, but I should think that is very expensive!
I'm sure somebody else here will be in a far better position to advise you than me, but I think you would probably just be chucking money away. I would use your cash to really enjoy doing the sort of flying that most people can't afford to, something unusual and fun.
Anyway, good luck whatever you do.
Last edited by one-punch-mickey; 8th Aug 2005 at 09:50.
Jet Blast Rat
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A few points to make.
To have your own AOC does not necessarily need a large staff. As far as I am aware a one-man organisation can hold an AOC for certain operations, as envisaged here. It also need not cost more than Steve is considering, especially as the CPL/IR, with ATPL groundschool, could cost less than £15,000 for a single-engine, if he doesn't go to the most costly schools.
I vaguely considered this, chatted with a friend ex-CAA employee, who recalled that an AOC for a light-aircraft operation was not terribly expensive. Ex-CAA examiners and inspectors are available to help as consultants in putting together the paperwork. Things like ops manuals are fairly standard, with relatively little change from one company to the next in the same type of operation, so the work should not cost very much.
I'd say go for it! If you want me to try and contact some people who know more send me a PM. Don't see them regularly at the moment, but might still have contact details.
To have your own AOC does not necessarily need a large staff. As far as I am aware a one-man organisation can hold an AOC for certain operations, as envisaged here. It also need not cost more than Steve is considering, especially as the CPL/IR, with ATPL groundschool, could cost less than £15,000 for a single-engine, if he doesn't go to the most costly schools.
I vaguely considered this, chatted with a friend ex-CAA employee, who recalled that an AOC for a light-aircraft operation was not terribly expensive. Ex-CAA examiners and inspectors are available to help as consultants in putting together the paperwork. Things like ops manuals are fairly standard, with relatively little change from one company to the next in the same type of operation, so the work should not cost very much.
I'd say go for it! If you want me to try and contact some people who know more send me a PM. Don't see them regularly at the moment, but might still have contact details.
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As a lowly SPL, I'm not familiar with AOC operations etc, but I think I remember reading here before that for air-taxi work, the pilot needs a minimum of 700 hours PIC or something like that.
Question is would your idea fall in to that category?
Maybe someone else can clarify that, I only have a vague recollection of reading it....
Question is would your idea fall in to that category?
Maybe someone else can clarify that, I only have a vague recollection of reading it....
Jet Blast Rat
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700 hours is for single-pilot IFR operations. Doesn't seem to be what Steve is contemplating. Pleasure flights or photographic flights need VMC, although an IR is an essential backup to have!
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SC even if it is one person you will need seperate QC and show that you are competant (ie experience in running an aviation company) As he wants to do it to gain experience he will need help ie lotsof money...
Jet Blast Rat
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Only 15 hours training and then no practical experience for maybe a couple of years? Rememeber Steve is not intending to actually fly in IMC.
trainer
If he does need separate QC then that can be external consultancy, and need not cost a lot at all. Running the type of flight operations (the CAA care about the operation, not the company) Steve intends is not difficult, I could check it and as a flight instructor the CAA might approve me to do so! My rates available on request
trainer
If he does need separate QC then that can be external consultancy, and need not cost a lot at all. Running the type of flight operations (the CAA care about the operation, not the company) Steve intends is not difficult, I could check it and as a flight instructor the CAA might approve me to do so! My rates available on request
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Steve3
I have very recent experience of setting up an AOC and with a few of us involved it still took just under a year!
Feel free to PM me and I will try to answer any specific queries that you may have.
I have very recent experience of setting up an AOC and with a few of us involved it still took just under a year!
Feel free to PM me and I will try to answer any specific queries that you may have.
Jet Blast Rat
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I don't know everything, never claimed to. That is why I know (a) when to ask someone who does and (b) when to use terms such as "as far as I am aware" to indicate that I am making a suggestion of what the case might be, and a line of enquiry to make, such as my point he might be able to operate alone. By the way the suggestion on that seemed to be that another employee might be needed for operations, although Steve should obviously check with someone more expereinced than I.
We are trying to help Steve here; childish sulks and misrepresentation of what I say are distinctly unhelpful. Surely if you have anything reasoned to say then post that, it is more likely to give Steve an idea of what is possible.
I did not say anywhere that it was easy to set up an AOC, if you bother to read; I said that the flight operations are not difficult. If you see anything difficult in them, or that could not be monitored adequately for safety (I mean in practical terms, rather than to comply with arbitary regulation) by a flight instructor, kindly point out what it is.
Actually if Steve buys in the paperwork and consults with people who have done similar work before (several of whom I know, and can poin him in the direction of if he needs) I suspect that setting up the AOC for this type of operation is not especially difficult, certainly not as complicated as you suggest.
So how come you know that all AOCs cost more than £100k to set up? Where did you get that attitude?
We are trying to help Steve here; childish sulks and misrepresentation of what I say are distinctly unhelpful. Surely if you have anything reasoned to say then post that, it is more likely to give Steve an idea of what is possible.
I did not say anywhere that it was easy to set up an AOC, if you bother to read; I said that the flight operations are not difficult. If you see anything difficult in them, or that could not be monitored adequately for safety (I mean in practical terms, rather than to comply with arbitary regulation) by a flight instructor, kindly point out what it is.
Actually if Steve buys in the paperwork and consults with people who have done similar work before (several of whom I know, and can poin him in the direction of if he needs) I suspect that setting up the AOC for this type of operation is not especially difficult, certainly not as complicated as you suggest.
So how come you know that all AOCs cost more than £100k to set up? Where did you get that attitude?
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Just a couple of points to throw into the mix...
Steve, you mentioned if 100k was enough to set up a small operation, I would say more than enough, but dont get confused over types of AOC. You only need a 'B' AOC for pleasure flying, and that carries no CAA oversight on financial competence. Indeed I am involved with a possible start up and I have tried to persuade the principle to go initially for a B AOC due to its relative ease of application, but he wants to go the whole hog and apply for an A, and there are major differences between them I can tell you!
The requirement to fly as commander on 'pleasure flights' is 400hrs P1, so be aware as a 'bare' CPL you will need to build some hours before being able to fly on your own AOC! And yes, you only need an IMC rating, not an IR.
Hope this helps and good luck!
Steve, you mentioned if 100k was enough to set up a small operation, I would say more than enough, but dont get confused over types of AOC. You only need a 'B' AOC for pleasure flying, and that carries no CAA oversight on financial competence. Indeed I am involved with a possible start up and I have tried to persuade the principle to go initially for a B AOC due to its relative ease of application, but he wants to go the whole hog and apply for an A, and there are major differences between them I can tell you!
The requirement to fly as commander on 'pleasure flights' is 400hrs P1, so be aware as a 'bare' CPL you will need to build some hours before being able to fly on your own AOC! And yes, you only need an IMC rating, not an IR.
Hope this helps and good luck!
